Ladies - Free Program

[chuckm]

Still, she lost only a tiny fraction of a point overall for an error that was apparently so bad that there is legitimate discussion of whether she did the jump (an actual Lutz jump) at all.

I think a reasonable compromise would be a separate call ("wrong edge") by the tech specialist, then a required negative GOE and a 1 point deduction, like for a fall). The skater could still get credit for for the element and would not be Zayacked out in the case where she also did two flips. (Gio is too tough, LOL. )

I don't think the error is all that bad, and to take a 1 point deduction in addition to the negative GOE would be to equate a flutz with a fall, which it is not. Two flutzes in a program would be equivalent to two falls. If such a rule were initiated, very few if any skaters would include lutzes in their programs, because the end result could be disastrous.

To be absolutely fair, if you had such a stringent rule for flutzing, you'd also have to have a similar rule for a lip (a flip executed from the BOE). Many of the European ladies who do correct lutzes do a lip instead of a flip. Then, of course, the flip would disappear from programs as well.

From what I have looked into, a technically correct lutz is a rare occurrence. When skaters such as Julia Sebestyen do a huge lutz, they get amply rewarded with +GOE. Flutzers get -GOE.

Anyway, the caller does not judge the quality of a jump, but simply indicates whether the jump had the requisite number of revolutions. The judges rate the quality. Given the political aspects of judging, I can just see judges making back room decisions about which skaters are going to be heavily deducted for flutzing. With a 3 lutzes in the two programs, flutzing could be relied on to trim scores by nearly 4 points, enough to affect placements.

No, thank you.

 

[Mathman]

Given the political aspects of judging, I can just see judges making back room decisions about which skaters are going to be heavily deducted for flutzing.

I don't understand this point. That's the way it is now, right? The judges decide how much, if anything, to take off on GOE for an bad take-off edge. They can make backroom deals, if they want to, about which skaters to nail and which skaters to let get away with it.

If the caller calls "bad edge" in the same way that he or she now calls "more than 1/4 underrotation," it would take at least that part of it out of the judges' hands. (The only reason I am not completely sold on this idea is that there is no reason to think that the tech specialists are any more reliable -- or any less -- than the judges.)

It wouldn't be as bad as a fall. If you had only a mild flutz, the judges could give -1 GOE to go along with -1 deduction, so you would get 4.0 points for a flutz. The same as for a properly done triple toe.

By all means, the "wrong edge" penalty would apply to every jump, not just the Lutz.

I think skaters would still try the Lutz, only they would try harder to do it right. If they decided, I can't take a chance on putting in my triple Lutz because I might lose two or three points for flutzing, what are they going to replace it with? There are still only seven passes and Zayak rules still apply, so you would have plenty of incentive to work on your Lutz and not just abandon it.

 

[Saundy]

And Canada fails to stay in the top 10 to send 2 ladies to next year's junior worlds. This depresses me.

 

[chuckm]

I don't understand this point. That's the way it is now, right? The judges decide how much, if anything, to take off on GOE for an bad take-off edge. They can make backroom deals, if they want to, about which skaters to nail and which skaters to let get away with it.

If the caller calls "bad edge" in the same way that he or she now calls "more than 1/4 underrotation," it would take at least that part of it out of the judges' hands. (The only reason I am not completely sold on this idea is that there is no reason to think that the tech specialists are any more reliable -- or any less -- than the judges.)

It wouldn't be as bad as a fall. If you had only a mild flutz, the judges could give -1 GOE to go along with -1 deduction, so you would get 4.0 points for a flutz. The same as for a properly done triple toe.

By all means, the "wrong edge" penalty would apply to every jump, not just the Lutz.

I think skaters would still try the Lutz, only they would try harder to do it right. If they decided, I can't take a chance on putting in my triple Lutz because I might lose two or three points for flutzing, what are they going to replace it with? There are still only seven passes and Zayak rules still apply, so you would have plenty of incentive to work on your Lutz and not just abandon it.

I am sure lots of folks would LOVE a flutz deduction, because it would target the US ladies. But then, a lip deduction would target the Europeans and some Asians as well.

Anyway, it is a moot point and could never be instituted. The callers do not have the ability to say what is wrong with a jump, just that it had or did not have the proper number of rotations. What you're proposing would not be in the province of the caller at all, and for that reason, this rule could not be imposed. And IMO, it should not be.

 

[purplecat]

Mirai rocks!

Now let's have a poll about what she actually said where the interviewer put "[said]"

1. ...and I go, "I'm not going to let that sucker go."

2. ...and I'm like, "I'm not going to let that sucker go."

According to The Golden Skate report on the Ladies freeskate it is #2! Well, close enough the quote was:

"I was like, 'I'm not gonna let that sucker go!'"


That same report has a funny typo about Caroline too saying "3 year old" instead of "13 year old".

 

[enlight78]

I am sure lots of folks would LOVE a flutz deduction, because it would target the US ladies. But then, a lip deduction would target the Europeans and some Asians as well.

Anyway, it is a moot point and could never be instituted. The callers do not have the ability to say what is wrong with a jump, just that it had or did not have the proper number of rotations. What you're proposing would not be in the province of the caller at all, and for that reason, this rule could not be imposed. And IMO, it should not be.

I disagree. Doesn't the the caller also call the jump for being a combination or a sequence. Isn't it the the technical specialist who are naming the jumps since skater don't have to follow their program. What the edge takes off on is important in what jump it is. I believe it is in the caller jurisdiction to penalize a jump as "wronged edge".

 

[Mathman]

Anyway, it is a moot point and could never be instituted. The callers do not have the ability to say what is wrong with a jump, just that it had or did not have the proper number of rotations. What you're proposing would not be in the province of the caller at all, and for that reason, this rule could not be imposed.

Of course it could be instituted. The technical committee of the ISU could propose rules changes to the full assembly, or however it works, to expand the scope of the caller's responsibilities.

Under this new rule change, calling a bad edge would explicitly be incorporated into the "province of the caller."

You seem to be arguing that because it isn't this way now, therefore the ISU lacks the power ever to change its rules.

(Whether the ISU should change the rules or not, of course that point is open to disagreement.)

 

[vivianthecritic]

Well, Nana Takeda is pretty awful! Her jumps are, anyway. She should just retire, she'll never be a good skater.

 

[Mathman]

A flutz should be called a separate element from a lutz. A flip is worth 5.5 and a lutz is worth 6.0 so i think the pts for a flutz should be...1Fz-0.50 2Fz-1.8 3Fz-5.60

To me, the problem with introducing a new jump called the flutz is that we already have such a jump. Only it's called the flip.

 

[R.D.]

?? then what's the difference? Why don't they just call it a flip then?

 

[emma]

?? then what's the difference? Why don't they just call it a flip then?

'cuz then a lot of skaters will be Zayaked....and then there's also the whole debate about how much of a flutz is really a flip.

 

[Mathman]

?? then what's the difference? Why don't they just call it a flip then?

That's exactly what this whole debate is about.

Skating purists like Gio and Joesitz say it is a flip, end of discussion.

Others say that other aspects of the jump, such as wrenching your upper body around in the opposite direction from the curve of the entry, are enough to qualify it as a genuine Lutz attempt, although a flawed one.

 

[chuckm]

Of course it could be instituted. The technical committee of the ISU could propose rules changes to the full assembly, or however it works, to expand the scope of the caller's responsibilities.

Under this new rule change, calling a bad edge would explicitly be incorporated into the "province of the caller."

You seem to be arguing that because it isn't this way now, therefore the ISU lacks the power ever to change its rules.

(Whether the ISU should change the rules or not, of course that point is open to disagreement.)

\

The main reason why such a rule would never be instituted is that it gives entirely too much power to the caller. Giving deductions for falls, overtime and illegal elements is one thing. Those errors are immediately obvious. But giving deductions for how the caller saw the foot move on the entrance to a jump is quite another. And there is NO appeal for a technical call.

Already there are complaints about the levels the callers assign to elements, especially in ice dance, but also in singles skating.

You say such a rule could be passed. I say it absolutely would never even be introduced, because the federations will not go along with it.

 

[Sylvia]

Change of subject: FWIW, I just emailed the NY Times sports ed. to request coverage of the outstanding US performances in Junior Worlds! Where are they??

The most you can expect from the NY Times is that they publish an abbreviated summary of the AP newswire's Junior Worlds articles.

Well, no mention of the USA junior ladies' sweep in the New York Times today, but it made the Detroit News (are you shocked, Mathman? ):
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070304/SPORTS07/703040312/1136

 

[katymay]

Italia, that works for me!

The problem with marking it as a flip is that then you would have to take a "repetitive jumps" deduction (i.e. some skaters, if they flutz actually end up doing four triple flips)

 

[Mathman]

What would be the definition of this new jump, the "flutz." Would it be, "a toe-pick assisted jump taking off from a back inside edge, landing on the outside edge of the other foot?"

 

[emma]

What would be the definition of this new jump, the "flutz." Would it be, "a toe-pick assisted jump taking off from a back inside edge, landing on the outside edge of the other foot?"

Are you joking???

 

[Mathman]

Yes, because that is the definition of the flip. I am trying to understand the difference between a flutz and a flip.

 

[Mathman]

Well, no mention of the USA junior ladies' sweep in the New York Times today, but it made the Detroit News (are you shocked, Mathman? ):
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070304/SPORTS07/703040312/1136

Yes I am, because the Detoit News usually does not cover figure skating at all.

The Detroit Free Press, on the other hand, usually has great coverage. They even have their own reporter just for figure skating and other Olympic sports, Jo-ann Barnas They are especially good at stories with local interest. For instance there was a nice feature on Samuelson and Bates yeaterday.

But no article today. Boo!

 

[R.D.]

That's exactly what this whole debate is about.

Skating purists like Gio and Joesitz say it is a flip, end of discussion.

Others say that other aspects of the jump, such as wrenching your upper body around in the opposite direction from the curve of the entry, are enough to qualify it as a genuine Lutz attempt, although a flawed one.

This is where you would lose me, because I really have no idea how to tell the jumps apart (besides axel, edge jump and toe jump). From what you're telling me the Flutz and Flip are the same thing, so how does one distinguish the two?