Ladies Free Program

[equestrianguy]

Yes, Ando, has no presentation or character on the ice whatsoever.. She can jump to the moon and land cleanly for all I care, but her and her coach need to address her artistry soon..It's possibly because they don't understand American classic music and can't feel emotion within it.. If this is the case then they need to choose music native to their country and roots..You know Angela may have only done four triples, but I love watching her skate..

 

[Mathman]

I thought Ando's presentation was fine. True, in keeping with the Japanese character, she doesn't show emotion in her facial expression as much as American skaters do. Like any big jumper, the program looks empty if she misses the jumps. But like Nadine says, that's the risk you run if you want to push the envelop.

I thought Cynthia Phaneuf needs more flow to her movements and was generously scored in program components. And, although Angela is a beautiful artist, her spirals were weak in this performance, IMHO.

Was surprised that ABC chose to show Yukina Ota instead of the free program winner, Sussana Poykio (?)

But I was glad to see Ota. Far and away the prettiest presentation.

Mathman

 

[Lucy25]

Overall, quite unimpressived with the Ladies event. I love Ota's presence on the ice; she is very enjoyable to watch. However, that double kick thing she does going into her toe jumps drives me crazy! I don't remember seeing any other senior lady doing that before.

Angela seems so happy to be back, and that is good to see! I love that she is back in competition, but I will reserve my judgement of her until she includes the sal and loop in her program. I wonder if the 1a was actually planned since she had already done two 2axels?

I change my mind, I was impressed by Alissa Csizny because of her never having been in the spotlight like this before and doing as well as she did.

 

[cheekers85]

I agree pretty much with all your observations Mathman. But there is something else missing from Ando and I can't figure out what it is. Her skates don't feel complete even when she hits. Her power is nice though. I think she might become a better dancer (I seems like she has a good awareness for it in her hands and head) if she is pushed to do it. She needs to fill up her program with more unique moves too. I felt a little bad for her. I saw her doing the rebroadcast of worlds; and both here and there she seems like she looks sick when she gets her scores. I don't think she gets the difference between her and Arakawa right now. There are alot of good things in her skating and I hope she keeps getting pushed to develop what is lacking. Becuase if she has that and the jumps she has, it would be an unforgettable combo for her. Right now I just see potential though and not a champ, even if she really could be champ on a given day.
I was suprised Poykio wasn't shown too, and I was really let down by it. I am guessing abc didn't want to complicate the storyline? Or it could have just been that they will show the reigning champs of any big events, so thus Ota. I was psyched when she was shown though. I missed the four continets she won, and the GP that year, So even though it was splatfest for her, I loved the skating. Pretty.
Edited to add: How could I forget Alissa. I really like her spins, and style. She was really poised. Really enjoyable skate. It will be interesting of course, to see where she will be at nationals this year.

 

[Landover]

I don't believe any professional athlete who performs on a public stage should ever be deemed a coward. Ever.

 

[chuckm]

That Ando, even with a 3/3, was barely ahead of Nikodinov in the SP told the tale.

Miki simply has to work on skating elements other than jumps, and she MUST work on relating to the music and showing some expression when she skates. CoP is not kind to skaters who rely primarily on jumps to win competitions.

I expected Miki to try the quad at SA because it was her non-scoring event. She seemed terribly disappointed at not winning the gold medal, but IMO the bronze medal was a gift.

I'm not sure what Miki's strategy will be in her remaining GP events. She skates next home in Japan, where she is pitted against Shizuka Arakawa. It was plain at Campbell's that the Japanese Federation is solidly backing Miki rather than Shizuka, but I would be very surprised if Miki can pull off a win over Shizuka here. Shizuka is solid in all her elements, and has far better presentation skills than Miki.

China might seem to be a better chance for a gold medal than Japan, if Sasha doesn't skate, but if Miki lost to Nikodinov and Phaneuf at SA, then there's a distinct possibility she could lose to Slutskaya (if she skates) and Rochette. With Pavuk out, it is also possible that Angela Nikodinov could get another assignment, and she might be in even better shape than she was at SA.

 

[Vash01]

OK,

I will try to make a few observations. For those who get all excited, about Angela's win....DON'T! I may sound too harsh, but this was not a winning performance IMO, mainly she had a good strategy, that is all. To win without even trying a salchow and a loop it's unheard of at this level!!!!!
Here are all her jumps: 2a, 3toe, 3lutz/2toe, 3 flip, 3 flip/2 toe, 2 axel, 2 toe, 1 axel.
Basically she pulled a Kevin van den Perren, who used to try 2 or 3 double axels last year, when he didn't have a 3 axel and get credit for them.
So, I think she has still a problem with her edge jumps (salchow and loop) like she always had, because that is when she starts doubling in the middle of the LP. Cop helped her put out enough content, skating last, to win the competition.
Cynthia Phaneuf had also 4 triples. She popped the first 2 triples, then she regained composure and landed everything else. Her presentation is well beyond her age and looks to me the judges just "adore her". If this continues, she will be a favourite in years to come.
Miki Ando....well, I can't figure out her second set of marks.....While this was not her best technically, my feeling is she doesn't get enough credit on her technical content (she fell on her 4 salchow for heaven's sake...then she gets marked for a 3 salchow fall -3), but that is the rule...On the second mark though, she gets hammered. She got 48.40 presentation while Alisa Czisny had 50.40 !!!!! Alisa is another one, who got a gift beside Cynthia Phaneuff, her presentation is very much junior like, and to have higher marks than Ando who is not bad at all, it is unfair.
Czisny was not as good as in the SP, but she showed a lot of promise, beside the fact that she got more credit to her presentation than she should've...
Poykio, what a pitty, she had the skate of the night, with 5 clean triples, she only popped the loop, with very fluid skating and she deserved much more than 5th. She skated beautifully.
I think under factored placements, she would've finished higher, despite being 8th after LP.
Liashenko underrotated 2 triples, and of course she didn't try the loop.
Ota was far from her best.

Herios - Joseph

I had similar thoughts about the ladies. Angela deserved to win this one, but she was the only lady in a group of girls. I love Angela's skating and she had some wonderful things, but why 3 double axels in a program (and the singled the last one). She doubled the last triple toe, so I still see the same pattern that has haunted her over the years- strong in the first half, and diluted jumps in the second. I am happy for her because she is making a comeback, but she is going to need a lot more to be competitive at the US Nationals, if she wants to make the world team.

I did not agree with Ando's 3rd place at all. Considering that Phaneuf actually SINGLED first first two triples, and she is overall rather juniorish, Ando's penalties seemed heavy. She did fall on a triple lutz later in the program, but she did complete a triple lutz-double toe-double toe combination in the beginning. Her other fall was on the quad salchow, and no one else was even attempting it. Considering that she was in the 1st place in the SP, her marks must have been very low in the LP to drop below Phaneuf, who actually had some major mistakes, including the last one- she finished behind her music.

Alissa Ciszny did some wonderful things on the spins (reminded me of Oksana Baiul) but she was very weak in the jumps and again overall she did not look strong. It was a terrific performance for a young skater making a last minute appearance at a senior GP.

My biggest disappointment was Yukina Ota. I absolutely adore her skating but it was painful to see her have major problems on nearly every jump. I hope she can fix her jump problems because she is such a joy to watch.

Overall it was the weakest skate America I have seen, probably ever.

Vash

 

[Sk8n Mama]

I agree with chuckm about Miki. The cherography, spins and field movements were virtually non-exitsent. It looked like she was just skating around and jumping. To boot, the quad and the t-t combo were not close to full rotation. She had very poor flow throughout the program. Cynthia skated nowhere near her best. Usually, her presentation is very mature. She just seemed plain old nervous and the timing was off on everything even though she fought hard through the program. As a Canadian, I was very pleased to see her fight hard after popping the opening jumps. I felt Angela's program was pretty flat, the spins and artistic weren't great but she deserved to win.

I don't think you can judge an early GP event against what will happen at World's. At this stage in the season, there are lots of weak performances. Don't forget that they are training to peak for World's, not Skate America. The goal is to do well enough to get the points to get to the GPF or for the judges to notice you. That being said, the only real top name skater in the ladies was Miki Ando-no Shizuka, no Michelle, no Sasha, no Fumie, no Irina.........

 

[cheekers85]

I really adore Angela. But I actually don't think she showed alot of facial expression this particular time. Not really significantly more than Ando here. In they past her expressions have been really gorgeous. I'm sure she will show that later on in the season when she is more in shape however. Anways I hope so I missed the old polish this time, but loved the attack and new jumping..I think she will add to it too, but I am an optimistic one.
I missed the posts of Mathman before me (I have no idea how) on the previous page. So some of what I said before on Ando was already kind of addressed, count and counterpoint.
Unfortunaltey AP is out, and Kirk can't stand up anymore. (don't jump on me if I am not correct ont his- memory may not be right but that is the overall impression I got from last year) So who knows. I think it will be interesting to see where Csizny is at at Nationals this year. I like her though. I am not like a huge new super fan or anything though. And I am not expecting much at this time or for a little while. I think she will develop slowly. In the meantime very pleasant. I like her better than Phaneuf for my part. I didn't get Ando behind her either. But it doesn't irk me because in an odd way I want the judges to push Ando to her potential (she has it the dance ability i know it!) in other areas.
Bauil was gorgeous in a lot of ways. I actually was talking about her to someone I know the other day, and her opinion was her jumping was nowhere near where it should have been for a gold medal contender. That it was kind of ridiculus. On the other hand, she pointed out for style and image reasons she prefer Bauil as champion and ambassador. (at that time when she won/skating style) Anyways one person's off topic opinion on Bauil's skating.
I agree Nikodinov is really a women among the girls here. In a few ways. I am really really happy for her. She makes me feel better about my age and pursing skating. Michelle is "older" now but she never stopped and came back after awhile.

 

[Mathman]

Hi, Landover. I'm pretty sure that the poster who used the word you objected to was intending to praise Miki Ando for taking the risk to push the technical envelop. It was not meant as a put-down of anyone else.

Welcome to the forum. Sorry it took something negative to bring you aboard.

Mathman (moderator)

 

[cheekers85]

hey Mathman. I didn't realise you were the mod. Sorry to be OT but I just wanted to say hi and introduce myself to everyone here also. I kinda jumped in out of nowhere but I love writing about skating. I haven't really done much of that kind of thing outside of a blog and such. And I ussually stick to gymnastics boards. But nice place here. I entered the Skate America picks contest when I found this site and I figured why not post.

 

[Mathman]

Hey, Cheekers, how did you get in under the radar and make 28 posts without anyone giving you an official welcome?

Party on! arty: :agree:

MM

 

[SkateFan4Life]

Congratulations, Angela. You go, girl!!

 

[RealtorGal]

Facial expression

"Making" facial expression is not what is important. What is important is feeling the music while skating, allowing the music to be expressed by that feeling. THAT is what creates facial expression--it is PART of the WHOLE. Empty face poses are just that: EMPTY and devoid of meaning--otherwise known as "emoting." Angela does not need to "make" facial expressions--you can see how one she is with the music with she skates, and the expression on her face is a RESULT of feeling that music.

This is Ando's biggest problem: she is not "one" with the music and does not allow it to flow through her while she skates. For example, when she makes a hand movement, it is forced rather than being an expression of the music. And it looks forced--like someone said "do it." Yes, it is the job of the choreographer to say "do it," but it is the job of the skater to discover a REASON for doing it, an interpretative reason.

As some of you may know, I used to teach singing, and I view the premise of artistic expression to be similar in singing, skating, dancing--any aspect of performance.

Okay, getting off soap box now.

 

[Mathman]

Still, different cultures have different ways of expressing emotion. To Irina Slutskaya, feeling the anguish of Tosca meant flopping around grabbing her head. This was made fun of here in prim and proper America.

Similarly, cheesing and grinning in response to beautiful music may not be the Asian cup of tea. As the Chinese say about Americans -- "They're inscrutable! Americans smile all the time, so you never know what they are thinking!"

MM

 

[Fossi]

I thought Angela did just fine. The season is early on for her and she landed 4 triples. Sasha only landed 3 at Campbells, so Angela isn't doing too badly for early season.
I really wanted Miki to land that dang quad. She is such a powerful skater and I hope she keeps trying this quad.
Ota is a beautiful skater. Wonderful presentation. Once she gets her jumps I think she will be a contendor against the likes of Shizuka, Michelle and Sasha.
I'm not too impressed with Cynthia Phenuf. She looks like a junior skater, reminds me of Carolina Costner.

 

[JonnyCoop]

I can't believed they showed Ota over Poykio, either. Which leads me to my 3rd CoP rant of the day.....

The reason that the long program was given such a definitive percentage value of the overall score, starting in 1973, was due to the fact that Beatrix Schuba won the '72 Olympics by having a figures lead that was so large that not even "substandard" free skating (the part which was shown on TV) could keep her from winning. Now, I don't know for sure where Ms. Schuba finished in the free skate (I've heard anything from 9th to 15th), but it was certainly low enough to make TV viewers wonder WHAT on earth was going on when she was clearly outskated by Janet Lynn, Karen Magnussen, and several others. So isn't the case of Susanna Poykio rather a variation of that? Granted, it was ABC's decision to show Ota instead -- but if we have a system where a winning free skate can't get you on the podium, and a 6th-place free (Ando's) can win you a medal, how is THAT any different from what was in place 32 years ago??? Yes, I know -- sometimes you CAN pull way up. But sometimes you can't, which would take me back to tangent #1 earlier in this post.

 

[Mathman]

Wow, what a wickedly clever idea! So ABC chose not to show Poykio in fear that the television audience would say, "Hey, she was the best skater, why didn't she win anything?"

Go ABC!

 

[show 42]

It seems that although CoP is a new system, the old "if you're in the top three, you control your own destiny" theory is still in place............42

 

[hockeyfan228]

Susanna must be kicking herself (although I hope she takes her skates off first ) for placing only 8th in the SP. Otherwise, she would surely have medaled..

Under 6.0, she and Ando would have swapped places (3rd and 5th). Under CoP, Poykio skated worse enough in the SP and not better enough in the LP to earn 5th place, while Ando skated so much better in the SP and not worse enough in the LP, that her cumulative competition was 3rd best.