- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
Yeah a past her prime Kwan went undefeated for the first time ever which she couldnt even do in past years when she was much better. Thanks for proving my point further about the 03-06 quad that Cohen was fortunate to peak in.
Ladies FS
- Thread starter Chemistry66
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Yeah a past her prime Kwan went undefeated for the first time ever which she couldnt even do in past years when she was much better. Thanks for proving my point further about the 03-06 quad that Cohen was fortunate to peak in.
Have no idea, but given the level of thought and time devoted to such irrelevant point, it seems there still are a lot of unsolved business in the internet.
I think that's what the Internet is for. Where else can we fans go to find people equally interested in our obsessions about why Michelle didn't win gold in 1998, or whether Sasha should have stayed in skating? I mean, we also come up with rational, sensible ideas, but we have to get the OCD aspect of our devotions out of our systems, don't we? I try to be cool about things, but from time to time the "wuzrobbed" part of my brain takes over, and I'm good to go for a few pages of posts. I'm sure I'm not the only one!
Nobody who's here is totally calm and collected all the time. Otherwise we'd be on a chess forum.
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- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
My only point is when evaluating results one must consider the quality of competition as well. It is silly to overlook this factor. I only brought it up since others are totally ignoring that a a factor in results which is clearly silly. Nagasu gave performances at the 2010 Olympics for instance that with fair judging would have won many Olympics, that should have easily won the 2006 Olympics (over a 5 triple only Shizuka) which Sasha was a distant and narrow silver (and some thought wuzgifted) at.
Why does hardly anyone consider Sonja Henjie the greatest ever? After all her record is far beyond anyone elses. Obvious reason is she competed when figure skating was just starting out as a serious sport and she had much weaker competition than future skaters.
You cant fault Nagasu and Flatt for who they have to compete against. They compete against a prime Kim and Asada which is incredibly tough, way tougher than a past their primes Kwan and Slutskaya, or even a prime Arakawa. And beyond that they compete against Ando, Kostner, and Rochette which is far tougher than Suguri, Sokolova, and Meissner.
Why does hardly anyone consider Sonja Henjie the greatest ever? After all her record is far beyond anyone elses. Obvious reason is she competed when figure skating was just starting out as a serious sport and she had much weaker competition than future skaters.
You cant fault Nagasu and Flatt for who they have to compete against. They compete against a prime Kim and Asada which is incredibly tough, way tougher than a past their primes Kwan and Slutskaya, or even a prime Arakawa. And beyond that they compete against Ando, Kostner, and Rochette which is far tougher than Suguri, Sokolova, and Meissner.
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On at least part of that I can definitely agree with you, PangTong. To compete against Kim and Asada must be like competing against people who have magical powers. It's like the problems faced by American ice dancers and pairs skaters in the days when Soviets had a virtual lock on the best training and most innovative programs in the world. When you think about it, even Asada must feel she's facing a buzz saw sometimes when she competes against the equally prodigiously gifted Kim. Can you imagine executing three double axels at the Olympics and not being good enough to win the gold? So times are definitely tough for ladies singles skaters. Great new for fans; truly grueling for skaters.
But a lot of the ways Nagasu and Flatt fall short aren't because their best is not good enough. (The 2010 Olympics being a glorious exception.) It's when they goof up that they slide out of competition. After all, Rochette pulled herself up to a medal, and she was not in contention at all during many recent years. It's certainly possible that at least Mirai could podium in such a field, if she skates what she's capable of.
As for Sonja Henie: when I read of her record, I was very excited to see her. But I found her skating disappointing to my post-Peggy Fleming eyes, as I'm sure you did. She had no extensions as she did spirals; she didn't hold any moves. Her back hunched as she moved. The lines that we value just weren't the style of the day. People hadn't figured out the potential of skating yet. Moreover, it truly was figure skating in those days: you won on the strength of your school figures. The person who began the change to more athletic skating was Henie herself, but she certainly couldn't have envisioned either the athletic likes of Dorothy Hamill or the graceful musicality of Janet Lynn.
But a lot of the ways Nagasu and Flatt fall short aren't because their best is not good enough. (The 2010 Olympics being a glorious exception.) It's when they goof up that they slide out of competition. After all, Rochette pulled herself up to a medal, and she was not in contention at all during many recent years. It's certainly possible that at least Mirai could podium in such a field, if she skates what she's capable of.
As for Sonja Henie: when I read of her record, I was very excited to see her. But I found her skating disappointing to my post-Peggy Fleming eyes, as I'm sure you did. She had no extensions as she did spirals; she didn't hold any moves. Her back hunched as she moved. The lines that we value just weren't the style of the day. People hadn't figured out the potential of skating yet. Moreover, it truly was figure skating in those days: you won on the strength of your school figures. The person who began the change to more athletic skating was Henie herself, but she certainly couldn't have envisioned either the athletic likes of Dorothy Hamill or the graceful musicality of Janet Lynn.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Kasparov wuzrobbed against Kramnik in 2000. Kasparov would have crushed both Fischer and Karpov, who faced lesser competition in their day.
Still, you can only beat the people that you compete against. Alexander the Great would have lost to Dwight Eisenhower in the art of warfare (Eisenhower had an atom bomb).
I agree with MM- it's two different eras. Not the competitors' fault about the field they're up against once they hit their prime. Now, they may have been lucky to peak in a period where the field wasn't all that strong (think 2004, Olys/Worlds 2006), or they may have been UNlucky to peak in a period where the field was extraordinary (think Vancouver 2010). But everything is relative. Doesn't make the accomplishments of those who won in a "weaker" field less significant, since "a win is a win".
What is the point of going ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON about the gold medals that Sasha missed during her career?
You can't post anything about Sasha around here without people rushing to point out that she never won a world or Olympic medal and yada yada yada.
I can't even imagine harping on and on and on on about other skaters of the past who maybe didn't reach all of their goals. Some poster seem to live for criticizing certain skaters ad nauseum. :scowl:
Boring.
You can't post anything about Sasha around here without people rushing to point out that she never won a world or Olympic medal and yada yada yada.
I can't even imagine harping on and on and on on about other skaters of the past who maybe didn't reach all of their goals. Some poster seem to live for criticizing certain skaters ad nauseum. :scowl:
Boring.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
so true! and all those antiKwan posters who never failed to mention she never won an Oly. So what?
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
