Sorry, I am European and I do think that basic tech value is not enough to get silver medal. (well, it seems that it is enough to medal under CoP). Protocols protocols protocols. In this case I don't need to look at protocols. Amen
Ladies Long Program
- Thread starter jiggs
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Sorry, I am European and I do think that basic tech value is not enough to get silver medal. (well, it seems that it is enough to medal under CoP). Protocols protocols protocols. In this case I don't need to look at protocols. Amen
NJS needs to be reworked ...
As many people on this board, I too think that Carolina Kostner's performance was generously rewarded for the many mistakes she did. But let's not blame her for that, she's only getting the points the judges give to her. And they themselves only comply to the Judging System. A case can be made that the quality of execution of an element is not properly taken into account with the GoE : the -3/+3 scale is not selective enough (and the +3 mark remains an exception). That would also assure that clean performances be better scored. On the other hand, underrotations get very serious deductions (which explains Yukari's technical score). I can understand what they meant with the "double penalty" (a triple counted as a double with a negative GoE) : preventing skaters to try jumps they don't master and fully rotate. It is a message to tell them to stick with easier but better executed elements. BUT when someone like Nakano goes for the triple axel, underrotates it by a little more than a 1/4 but still has good landing and good flow out of it, the deduction is RIDICULOUS.
The ISU decided a few years ago that figure skating could be judged through a points system - that had never been tried nor thought out before. And for a simple reason : it cannot be easy at all ! Now they have to fulfill their own goal - I don't think the current system does it well.
As many people on this board, I too think that Carolina Kostner's performance was generously rewarded for the many mistakes she did. But let's not blame her for that, she's only getting the points the judges give to her. And they themselves only comply to the Judging System. A case can be made that the quality of execution of an element is not properly taken into account with the GoE : the -3/+3 scale is not selective enough (and the +3 mark remains an exception). That would also assure that clean performances be better scored. On the other hand, underrotations get very serious deductions (which explains Yukari's technical score). I can understand what they meant with the "double penalty" (a triple counted as a double with a negative GoE) : preventing skaters to try jumps they don't master and fully rotate. It is a message to tell them to stick with easier but better executed elements. BUT when someone like Nakano goes for the triple axel, underrotates it by a little more than a 1/4 but still has good landing and good flow out of it, the deduction is RIDICULOUS.
The ISU decided a few years ago that figure skating could be judged through a points system - that had never been tried nor thought out before. And for a simple reason : it cannot be easy at all ! Now they have to fulfill their own goal - I don't think the current system does it well.
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- Jun 21, 2003
:thumbsup: I think this is the whole problem with the CoP in a nutshell. We should not have to look at protocols to tell us whether a competitor skated well or poorly.
The whole issue with Yukari's placement in the LP is not that she is not judged unfairly. Quite the contrary, her score essentially reflect the best judging in action. Every aspects of her program was taken into account - slight UR here and there, bad jump techniques, very good performance and presentation. The true issue with her placement is that Kostner's judgment is completely off! Remember, placement is relative! Kostner was not penalized enough for a very messy program. The fault is with the judging system. It should deduct more points for a fall or handdown during landing... These things seriously disrupt a program and its presentation. The current minor deduction for hands down in landing and -1 deduction for a fall is not enough. This defect in the IJS allowed a messy program to win over a clean performance. Unless the rule is changed/improved, we will see similar mis-judging again and again.
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- Dec 16, 2006
I think skaters, whether they are women or men, should not get ANY credit for severe UR or hand down, or two-foot. "Back in the day" when men would attempt the quad and two-foot it, it would not be ratified. Nowadays, it's perfectly OK to two-foot a semi-close-to-fully-rotated quad. No. The ISU needs to crack down on severe UR (because let's face it--most jumps have a small amount of UR), hands down, two foot, or three turns after a jump. They need to stop rewarding mistakes!
My problem with Kostner's scores is the Performance and Execution mark. They basically tied her with Yu=na there and that's not right. Yes, Yu-na was definetly not Yu-na's normal self, but Kostner's messy peformance shouldn't have tied Yu-na's on that mark.
I say give Kostner a nice skating skills score, but she should have been docked in the Performance/Execution mark, because she did not execute that performance well. That's my issue.
I say give Kostner a nice skating skills score, but she should have been docked in the Performance/Execution mark, because she did not execute that performance well. That's my issue.
I agree. But regarding hands down, two foot, just severe ones should be discounted. To me a hand down is okay. But perhaps both hands down, not really. Two foot---totally depend on the degree. The audience is frustrated when something that you can't see at your bare eyes is penalized.
I am not sure if they played around with the numbers to make sure the winner, like they did in the old system. Although the author of this text says that the ordering might have made a difference, the judges don't need to "save" the high mark for the skaters who skate later in the current system. Unlike the older system, they don't need to decide the rank order. So I am not quite sure if this was the case. But still it may be possible that the overall impression may be affected by her SP performance and pre-event information that she is not 100%, which might have affected her PCSs.
Do you think that Yuna was slower than usual in her LP? Ppl were saying that Yuna didn't have the usual spark. I don't think she absolutely needed to have the spark and aura to have a higher mark here. But slower skating could hurt. I think she was very fast and smooth during the first part of the program. But towards the end around the time when she singled the lutz, she became slower. I felt that her stamina was running out. That might have hurt. In any case, I do agree that she still deserved better PCSs.
On the other hand, she might be lucky not having been called for UR on her 3S. Besides, her SP score, esp. PCS, looked over-marked. Her step sequences looked slow and lacked energy and she didn't really "perform" with joy as she usually did. Her high PCSs in her SP in previous events despite the mistakes were justified by her good presentation. But in her SP at this competition, she didn't have that.
So overall, perhaps plus and minus.
But Caro also might be lucky for not called for UR on any of her jumps and receiving that PCS despite being tired towards the end of the performance. I don't really think that she deserved that PCS in her LP although she was brilliant in SP.
BTW, I feel a bit sorry for Wagner who seemed to be upset about needing to skate early after Miki's withdrawal. I understand that Miki wanted to at least try. She seemed to be still deciding whether or not to perform right before and during the performance. I didn't think that it was a very rational or realistic decision for her to take the ice when she was already too injured to practice in the morning and the coach was telling her to withdraw. Perhaps she still thought that she could pull herself together and wanted to try. It also might have been unpredictable for her how the medication would affect her muscles during the performance. I could see her left leg not working properly after the Sal even though she looked fine and landing jumps during the warm-up. But it was unfortunate for Wagner to have this kind of unpredictability. Miki tried her best until the very last minute, which was courageous spirit. But Wagner couldn't predict what might happen until the very last minute, which was unfortunate. I recall similar events happening to a Canadian female skater after Tonya Harding's accident with boots and to Victor Petrenko in his SP after the previous skater's boots problem. Both were upset and neither of them did well after these incidents. Unfortunately the same scenario for Wagner. I am sorry about that. But things happen and perhaps she just needs to accept it that she was unlucky. Besides, there was a rumor circulating about Miki's withdrawal so that Wagner and her coach might be thinking of the possibility that this could happen. In any case, it was not the best scenario for her to have such a worry that she had no control over, on top of the pressure at the first Worlds. I am sorry about that. Japanese commentator Mr. Higuchi and the announcer at J-Sport were pretty sympathetic towards her although they did not mean to criticize Miki or anything. I hope that this is not going to be Wagner's first and last Worlds.
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- Jan 20, 2004
After finally seeing Kostner's LP last night I can't believe she captured the silver.. Although, outside of Asada....the ladies were mostly lackluster all together.. The girl that ended up 4th (Yukari?) she should of had the silver and Yu-na the bronze.. Kostner was a MESS! I loved that program earlier in the year watching her at the GPF events, but she bombed it at Worlds.. Maybe she peaked to soon?
With my all love for Caro, I don't really think Caro peaked in any of the GP events. Her performance was disasterous at CoC, better at NHK, and her GPF was relatively good. But she unfortunately has had similar mistakes in all competitions.
Yet, the good news is that she medalled many times this season. So I think that it was a good season for her. She is now ranked 1st in ISU (this season's ranking not the three-season one). I am hoping that she could have two clean programs next season with the confidence that she would have gained this season.
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- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
But a hand down is a technical error, even one hand down. It means the skater broke at the waist to try and keep from falling over backwards/sideways on the landing for some reason. I think a pitch forward (or to the side) with an almost hand down should be punished but not as severely as one hand down or deifintely not as severely for both hands down. To me, both hands down should get the -3 (without the overall program -1).
Two foot should be punished on a gradiated scale depending on how it takes place.
So you mean -1 for a pitch forward (or to the side) with an almost hand down, -2 for a hand down, and -3 for both hands down without -1 for the overall program? Two hands down sometimes do look as bad as a fall. But even if you sit down, it wouldn't be seen as a fall unless your butt touches the ice.
Currently, the free leg touching down is -1 and ovbious two foot is -2.
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- Oct 22, 2005
I'd like to see it either as you described or for judges to be able to give GOEs in 1/2 point increments. A pitch forward or sideways is a detraction from the element and should be deducted for. One hand down should be worse than a pitched upper body. Two hands down SHOULD be a -3 without the -1 deduction for the fall on the whole program.
Yeah, I would love to see the 1/2 point increments, too. I am frustrated when a very slight, accidental two-foot that you cannot see in your bare eyes is penalized by -1.
Two-foot should be penalized less in GOE, agree, but it should be penalized much harder when it comes to the base value.
