Ladies Long Program

[Particle Man]

Dad was not impressed with the judging when it came to Carolina Kostner. With the problems she had he couldn't understand why she wasn't given deductions (I then had to explain the CoP to him... NOT easy lol)

Not sure "CoP" is enough to explain this one. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Carolina... I'm happy for her that she won silver. But I simply didn't understand that 120 in the free skate, nor did I understand Nakano's lack of a medal after a clean FS with a clean 3A. Kostner's FS was .. darn near awful, IMO, and I wanted her to do really well. So in that sense CoP can be blamed, for rewarding completed elements that look like crap. But even given that, I don't understand the 120. It seems pretty clear to me that Carolina got held up a bit, just like Dick Button said. So then, I ask you - what's the freaking POINT of CoP?? We've alienated the audience, just about killed off artistry, made the skaters jump through hoops, and it's pretty clear that we STILL have unfairness in judging. Just go back to 6.0, before skating loses too much of its audience to recover...

I think someone on here said it best: "skating should be JUDGED, not CALCULATED."

 

[iluvtodd]

That's a pretty cold statement. Kimmie was crushed after Nationals. Her clean Worlds short program was a big triumph for her, and rightly so. Yes she fell twice in the long - well, at least that is 1 less time than Nationals, and she has only been going to her new coach for a handful of weeks. You were expecting the Kimmie of 2006 Worlds to magically return? It doesn't work that way. Kimmie is absolutely right to come out of this with a positive attitude, anything else could mean the end of her career. And she went from 7th at Nationals to 7th at Worlds. Looking at it that way, it's DEFINITELY an improvement.

I would say Kimmie has stopped the bleeding. She can now take a break, and make a fresh start in 08/09 with a new mindset, probably sticking with a new coach who is excellent at dealing with jumps; she has gotten better artistry and is more well rounded. Of course she will have some incredible competition, but Kimmie is a competitor. If she and Callaghan can fix the jumps, she will be competitive. If not, she would be done with or without the new phenoms skating against her. I don't expect her on the Worlds team for LA, but stranger things have happened. And if she comes back and starts skating clean and better than ever, that will still be a triumph whether or not she beats the young phenoms.

I'm happy for Kimmie for all the reasons mentioned above.

Now, my two cents about the ladies' podium: I felt Mao deserved the gold medal, despite that shocking fall so early in her free skate. Everything else she did was breathtaking. I have nothing personal against Carolina, but she had no business being on that podium with such a sloppy performance! What were the judges thinking? :disapp: Yukari should have won silver. As far as the leg wrap is concerned, I could care less. I haven't forgotten that my all time favorite lady, Midori Ito, had a leg wrap too. Did it ever bother me? Not in the least!! I'm very glad for Yu Na Kim. She wasn't perfect, but I'm glad that she medaled.

My heart broke for Miki. I wish I could give her a big hug right now. May she recover completely from her injuries and come back stronger next season.

Why didn't ABC show Bebe Liang's free skate?

I will truly miss Uncle Dickie, Peggy, and Terry. I the joking around, especially between Terry and Dick!

 

[Matt]

What saved Carolina was her program's base value - 64, 10 points higher than Yukari's - 53(with the downgrades). Even if Yukari landed everything correctly, I don't think she could have beaten Kostner on the technical mark.

But if Kostner had still skated like she did?! I don't doubt that Kostner can be one of the best technical skaters in the world when she skates clean, but it seems like she get credit for what she says she's going to do on paper than what she actually does on the ice in a given night, which I understood was what CoP was put in place to prevent.

As to all the comments about Kostner being held up b/c she was skating in Europe w/ European judges (although it's a random draw, so they couldn't all be European, but that's still the argument): wouldn't it be deliciously ironic if the other European countries got slammed for block/biased judging just like they used to complain about the Eastern-bloc countries? Now that's a (rather unfortunate) sub-plot

 

[gio]

And I'm no Dick Button fan, but I had to agree with him when he said that Kiira Korpi doesn't deserve to be in the Final group at a World Championship. She has some beautiful qualities, but she was not impressive here and was much too high going into the long program.

Dick can be really mean sometimes. Kiira deserved to be in the last group. It was fair and square.

About Caro and her mistakes. It is thanks to COP that she won the silver medal, not because of Euro conspiracy judging.
Remember that COP doesn't reward clean programs. 6.0 rewarded clean programs. COP rewards difficult elements, even if they are done poorly. That is what COP rewards.Slutskaya won a gold medal in 05 with a complete mess. Buttle won a controversial bronze with a fall at the Olympics. Cohen won a bronze with a Kostner style program in 06. Sokolova should have won bronze that year.

 

[Matt]

Dick can be really mean sometimes. Kiira deserved to be in the last group. It was fair and square.

About Caro and her mistakes. It is thanks to COP that she won the silver medal, not because of Euro conspiracy judging.
Remember that COP doesn't reward clean programs. 6.0 rewarded clean programs. COP rewards difficult elements, even if they are done poorly. That is what COP rewards.Slutskaya won a gold medal in 05 with a complete mess. Buttle won a controversial bronze with a fall at the Olympics. Cohen won a bronze with a Kostner style program in 06. Sokolova should have won bronze that year.

I don't believe the Euro conspiracy theory at all...but unfortunately that's what people are throwing around. I know Michael Huth does a brillant job of packaging Kostner as to take advantage of CoP. And I don't doubt that Kostner deserves every ounce of value for her skating under CoP. As a FS fan, what I don't understand is how you can only land three clean triples while putting a hand down, doing a 3-turn out, or landing all the others on two feet and not get taken off accordingly.

BTW, I agree w/ you as far as Buttle and Cohen are concerned. I remember being very surprised to see Buttle vault onto the podium in Torino and completely disagree w/ Cohen being on the podium in '06. I don't quite see where you get Slutskaya, though...her SP in '05 was questionable, but IIRC she more than made up for it in the FS (even if she did too many 3loops)

 

[bekalc]

It's not just the European judges who want to hold up Kostner.

Someone on FSU said that they talked to a reliable skating official and the idea is that an Asian champion won't promote fans in N. America/Europe. So, it's an N.American/European conspiracy. Since Kostner is the one whose jumps most match the other top two girls, they went with Kostner. (Sigh)

I think Kostner deserves incredible high SS skills, but what I don't get is why she got high Presentation/Execution scores for that performance. I don't know about you, but that performance WAS NOT executed well. And there were a couple of judgse on some of those elements where she had hand downs/ stumbles who didn't give her -GOE.

 

[mskater93]

Not only PE marks are held up for Kostner but IN and CC marks as well. It's like she calls a timeout from presentation and choreography for 5-10 seconds to set up and execute jumps. My coach would NEVER let me get away with that, and I'm an ADULT skater!

I think they should have pushed Rochette if there's a NA/EU conspiracy going on. She was MUCH better than Kostner as an overall package in the LP and I'm not even a huge Rochette fan.

 

[fumie_fumie]

Rochette

It is still a mystery why Rochette is always held down in PCS. She has strong basic skating skills, edge qualities, feel for the music (look at the snap in her body moment in her Don Juan LP), textbook jump techniques - all her triples when they are on - have the height, coverage, full rotations and the exquisite running edges on landing.

Probably, the Granny, Rochette and Kim have the best jumping techniques in the market right now. I would say Asada, Kim and Rochette are the total packages among the top competitors.

The only downside with Rochette is the still upper body movement in straight line step sequence. If she can add some fluidity and 3-3, she will be podium bound next year.

Then again, psychology plays a big part in the final flights of singles competitions. If even you have everything you need to win, you won't win with the nerves getting the best of you (i.e. Takahashi, Lambiel)

 

[gio]

I don't quite see where you get Slutskaya, though...her SP in '05 was questionable, but IIRC she more than made up for it in the FS (even if she did too many 3loops)

Sorry, I didn't specify that I was talking about Irina's LP at Euros 05 held in Torino. Her LP was a complete mess and Susana Poykio should have won that competition.
Irina at the 2005 Worlds did a fantastic LP. The only error was the third 3loop. But other than that the program was hands down. Also artistically that was one of her best programs IMO.

 

[ManyCairns]

It is still a mystery why Rochette is always held down in PCS. She has strong basic skating skills, edge qualities, feel for the music (look at the snap in her body moment in her Don Juan LP), textbook jump techniques - all her triples when they are on - have the height, coverage, full rotations and the exquisite running edges on landing.

Probably, the Granny, Rochette and Kim have the best jumping techniques in the market right now.

ITA. Rochette just keeps coming back, year after year, and (overall) putting great stuff on the ice. Just love her skating.

"Granny" sometimes moves me, sometimes not, but it sounds like she was underscored big time this year, esp. relative to performances like Korpi's in the SP.

Kim is just a delight to watch. I absolutely don't "get" anything special from Asada -- my attention always wanders during her performances (but I know she mesmerizes thousands of fans). But definitely agree Kim is the total package, and Joannie, too, to me, esp. when she stays consistent.

 

[kikakiks]

What saved Carolina was her program's base value - 64, 10 points higher than Yukari's - 53(with the downgrades). Even if Yukari landed everything correctly, I don't think she could have beaten Kostner on the technical mark.

I just don't get why people talk talk and talk, but don't go and check the protocols.
Kostner was not gifetd nything, she got minus goe for almost everything except her opening combo. All her step outs had -1 and -2 goes.

She had the highest tech content of the night (6 points higher than yu-na).
Then Yu-Na and Mao had positive goe.

That's about it....get over it...If this was happening to a North American skater I bet no uprise would be happening on this board...

 

[emma]

I agree with the Rochette comments - she is special. Here's hoping she can put it all together AND the judges notice!

 

[Mathman]

It's not just the European judges who want to hold up Kostner.

Someone on FSU said that they talked to a reliable skating official and the idea is that an Asian champion won't promote fans in N. America/Europe. So, it's an N.American/European conspiracy. Since Kostner is the one whose jumps most match the other top two girls, they went with Kostner.

This rumor seems utterly absurd to me.

How can it possibly benefit U.S. figure skating to have a German pairs team as World Champion instead of a Chinese team? (Of course if our own Texas-Hyogo team of Inoue and Baldwin won, that woud be a different story!)

For that matter, how does it help figure skating in the U.S. to have a men's champion from Canada, rather than from Japan or Switzerland or France?

Do the conspicacy theorists think that more U.S. fans will come out to ogle blond beauty Kiira Korpi than raven-haired beauty Miki Ando?

 

[AwesomeIce]

I just don't get why people talk talk and talk, but don't go and check the protocols.
Kostner was not gifetd nything, she got minus goe for almost everything except her opening combo. All her step outs had -1 and -2 goes.

She had the highest tech content of the night (6 points higher than yu-na).
Then Yu-Na and Mao had positive goe.

That's about it....get over it...If this was happening to a North American skater I bet no uprise would be happening on this board...

THANK YOU!

Caro deserved her silver medal. Yes, its disappointing that it wasn't perfect, but it was good enough. And I , for one, am happy for her.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Bebe is an SP skater. Unfortunately, that is not enough to get her on a podium. Ken's done a good job on her. In practice and even in the warm-ups with her fantastic speed her jumps and spins are errorless.

You can name other SP skaters. There are a few.

IMO, YuNa is the more musical skater but she needs to start stretching those legs with turned-out knees, and pointing those toes.

Mao is super skater, but she should show more expression during her program It doesn't have to be smiles but a hint of how she feels the music.

Carolina has improved tremendously.

Joannie is really improving and I think she'll be more of a podium contender next season.

Miki needs to get that back taken care of. Maybe no competitions until Japanese Natiionals. Health must come first though.

Next year we get the debuts of Caroline and Mirai. Are there any other debuts coming into the next big Worlds before the Olys?

Joe

 

[ManyCairns]

Next year we get the debuts of Caroline and Mirai. Are there any other debuts coming into the next big Worlds before the Olys?

Joe

Rachel Flatt

 

[Particle Man]

Rachel Flatt

That would be Rachael Flatt. Who is constantly ignored even though she won junior worlds. Caroline Zhang won't really be making any debuts, as she has already skated in the senior GP this season. Her only "debut" would be if she makes it to Worlds.

 

[Mathman]

I just don't get why people talk, talk and talk, but don't go and check the protocols.

Kostner was not gifted anything, she got minus goe for almost everything except her opening combo. All her step outs had -1 and -2 goes...

I think people are not complaining about the judges but about the judging system. The IJS has certainly taken figure skating in a new direction.

As you point out, Carolina had negative GOEs on almost everything. Yet she made it around three times on her jumps before stepping out of the landing, and she changed edges and positions enough to get high levels on spins and spirals. According to the CoP, her program was packed with a large quantity of difficult elements.

Quality? That's not very important in the CoP.

 

[Wrlmy]

Will Rumi Suizu finally make her senior debut? Prabably not at Worlds, but I hope to see her in any of senior gps. If not, with Mirai, Rachael, and Caroline competing senior, she and Yuki Nishino might dominate jgp.
Jenni Vahaama will also make her senior debut I believe.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Dick can be really mean sometimes. Kiira deserved to be in the last group. It was fair and square.

I would have put her 7th in the SP. Maybe even 8th...I'll have to go watch Miki's SP again.