I completely agree on this, there shouldn't be any "chosen" one. Whoever wins gold and silver should go to worlds, fair and square!
Ladies LP
- Thread starter Kimmie Fan
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
That was 6.0. We're living under Code of Points now. Those kinds of comeback miracles are all but impossible under CoP.
I dunno...Meissner's face also turns red when she skates
which had also given her a healthy, girlish, cheerful look.
But this is just a matter of preference. I love healthy, girlish girls just as much as stylish, sophisticated ladies.
I´m very sad for Meissner.... She really needs to get her jumping fixed, huh, all those downgrades which will put her down in every competition. Also she needs to get her spins & footwork at least into level 3, if she means to be competitive agaist top ladies.
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- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
Really. In what way are they impossible? Just look at Carolina's hideous 2006 results and how she bounced back from that. Or Tomas Verner, who didn't even qualify for the SP at 2005 Worlds and two years later was a European silver medalist and almost medaled at 2007 Worlds. Or Dube/Davison's breakthrough at the most recent World Championships. Or Slutskaya who looked awful in 2004 when she returned from a long illness and then was World Champion a year later, in the first season done entirely under CoP.
There are plenty of criticisms that can be levelled against the current system but this is hardly one of them. Skaters now know exactly what they need to fix, and if they fix it, they'll get results. If they can't eventually fix what's wrong, they shouldn't be competing at the highest level anyway.
It was unfortunate that Kimmie lost really a lot of points on technical elements even though she became better at presentation. Although jumps may be another thing, I guess it would not be too difficult for her to increase levels on spins and steps.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
It may be a moot point, but say someone like Czisny or Meissner tears it up and winds up in the top Two. Would one be comfortable with those two as our world team??forget top 10, let alone three spots.
If Flatt has a bad night at Nats, I think she should be sent anyway. She seems to be the strongest of the American ladies thus far- BUT a lot can change in a couple months.
And as I said before, that second spot is up for grabs, but I'd rather it go to someone currently consistent than it just being given to someone in hopes that she will turn a bad season around. But that's just me.
Czisny has been up and down, hot and cold, in and out for four years now. She's going to continue to have that trend and she'd better hope that she peaks at the right time. She was off a little in the last Olympic year.
After watching Meissner's reaction after her skate (I didn't even bother watching the actual skate, nor the rest of the competition for that matter) she didn't even look disappointed. She looked like she didn't care much what the result was, or even look like she gave it her all.
The best thing to do is take the top 3 finishers from Nationals and send them all to Four Continents to see how they do in front of international judges. Then the top 2 go to Worlds.
There was a rule that the winner at Nationals automatically gets a spot at Worlds. I read that that rule was changed, but I don't know when the change goes into effect.
I agree with your idea; last year, there was the issue that some people felt like both Kimmie and Katrina Hacker should have been sent to 4 Continents and the one who placed higher would get the spot for Worlds. As for the rule about the National Champion, I believe it only applies as of Nationals 2010, so not in time for this year.
-Kypma
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I used to think that the Nationals as a tryout for the Worlds (not unlike the Summer Olympics) and let the chips fall where they may.
But seriously, I think the Federations know best. I am sure they have all the imput they need to make a 'best' selection. Of course where there is only one skater qualified to go to the Worlds, that Fed has it easy. But when a Fed has more than one skater eligible for the Worlds and the skater is not a 'star' as with Canada and Joannie, that Fed (USA) has a tougher job in sending any number of skaters. Canada will still have to consider two others. I believe they get 3. If not, then they must send one to get the sum of 13 points for the Olys. Likewise the USA. Japan should not have any problem in Ladies and Men.
Russia in Dance. USA in Men's (not absolutely certain) and Pairs. Dance should be easy. France should get 3 for Dance, and Germany 3 for Pairs.
But seriously, I think the Federations know best. I am sure they have all the imput they need to make a 'best' selection. Of course where there is only one skater qualified to go to the Worlds, that Fed has it easy. But when a Fed has more than one skater eligible for the Worlds and the skater is not a 'star' as with Canada and Joannie, that Fed (USA) has a tougher job in sending any number of skaters. Canada will still have to consider two others. I believe they get 3. If not, then they must send one to get the sum of 13 points for the Olys. Likewise the USA. Japan should not have any problem in Ladies and Men.
Russia in Dance. USA in Men's (not absolutely certain) and Pairs. Dance should be easy. France should get 3 for Dance, and Germany 3 for Pairs.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
In that case, the National champ goes to Worlds. Then send the 2nd, 3rd and 4th finishers to 4CC. The highest finisher goes to Worlds.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
^ There is no change in the selection process for Worlds, either for 2009 or 2010. The National Champion goes. If there are additional spots, the USFSA International Committee selects the participants based on
Placement at the last two US championships,
Last years Worlds,
Four Continenets,
Other nternational events,
The ISU ranking system
(listed in this order in the by-laws, page 67):
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/2008-09 RB Part 1 Bylaws.pdf
For the Olympics (only) the USFSA International Committee has more leeway and is not necessaritly required to send the national champipon.
IIRC the USFSA in the past took great pride in not playing political games -- like all those bad federations do
-- in the selection process. The top guys at nationals go, period, except in case of injury, like Nancy Kerrigan, Todd Eldredge and Michelle Kwan. They figured this was the moral high ground. Other fedeartions, like Russia, were accused of various schenanigan's like favoritism to the students of influential coaches, etc.
In the last Olympics the Japanese federation was criticised for following a point system that allowed Miki Abdo an undeserved spot -- the charge was that Miki pulled in a lot of money through endorsements and the Japanese federation would suffer financially if Miki didn't go.
Supposedly the USFSA was above all that.
Recently, though, there seems to be a sea change. USFSA folks are talking more and more like "sending the best team" (in the judgement of the USFSA brass) is more important than sticking to a hard and fast rule.
Placement at the last two US championships,
Last years Worlds,
Four Continenets,
Other nternational events,
The ISU ranking system
(listed in this order in the by-laws, page 67):
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/2008-09 RB Part 1 Bylaws.pdf
For the Olympics (only) the USFSA International Committee has more leeway and is not necessaritly required to send the national champipon.
IIRC the USFSA in the past took great pride in not playing political games -- like all those bad federations do
-- in the selection process. The top guys at nationals go, period, except in case of injury, like Nancy Kerrigan, Todd Eldredge and Michelle Kwan. They figured this was the moral high ground. Other fedeartions, like Russia, were accused of various schenanigan's like favoritism to the students of influential coaches, etc.In the last Olympics the Japanese federation was criticised for following a point system that allowed Miki Abdo an undeserved spot -- the charge was that Miki pulled in a lot of money through endorsements and the Japanese federation would suffer financially if Miki didn't go.
Supposedly the USFSA was above all that.
Recently, though, there seems to be a sea change. USFSA folks are talking more and more like "sending the best team" (in the judgement of the USFSA brass) is more important than sticking to a hard and fast rule.
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- Joined
- Nov 16, 2005
That would probably mean better performances at 4CC.
^ There is no change in the selection process for Worlds, either for 2009 or 2010. The National Champion goes. If there are additional spots, the USFSA International Committee selects the participants based on
Placement at the last two US championships,
Last years Worlds,
Four Continenets,
Other nternational events,
The ISU ranking system
(listed in this order in the by-laws, page 67):
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/2008-09 RB Part 1 Bylaws.pdf
For the Olympics (only) the USFSA International Committee has more leeway and is not necessaritly required to send the national champipon.
IIRC the USFSA in the past took great pride in not playing political games -- like all those bad federations do
In the last Olympics the Japanese federation was criticised for following a point system that allowed Miki Abdo an undeserved spot -- the charge was that Miki pulled in a lot of money through endorsements and the Japanese federation would suffer financially if Miki didn't go.
Supposedly the USFSA was above all that.
Recently, though, there seems to be a sea change. USFSA folks are talking more and more like "sending the best team" (in the judgement of the USFSA brass) is more important than sticking to a hard and fast rule.
Normally I like the national championship idea. However, I'm concerned now because a lot of our girls are getting their jumps downgraded internationally. While in contrast, the US technical caller can at times be "generous"
I'm worried about someone like Nagasu (and I love her but..) getting credit for jumps that wouldn't be credited internationally, and someone like Flatt getting screwed in the process. Just like Flatt "might" have been screwed out of a National Championship.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
I've been wondering about this. It seems that our American judges would try to emulate the international judges as much as possible. They would want to make sure the skaters they send to ISU events have the best chance of winning, so US judges must try to reward what ISU judges reward, and punish what ISU judges punish.
That's all well and good. The problem is that to untrained, non-experts like us, it looked as if Caroline and Kimmie got screwed in their events. If so, will our American judges try to duplicate this screwing?
Staying aside of the debate about the selection critieria for Worlds, I just wanted to say few things about Rachel Flatt.
I already wrote in the SP thread that this was the first time I saw her on TV (youtube before), and to me she seems to be very musical, delicate and artistic. She really feels the music and relates to it. She adds 'something' from her heart to the programs (this is something that IMO Caroline Zhangs is not able to do. Even if she improved her artistry a bit, everything from her seems 'learnt' and a bit fake). Back to the topic - although Rachel's program was not superb yet, I have a feeling that she will be able to blossom very soon, and become as mature and as special as Michelle Kwan became all of the sudden in 1996. I keep my fingers crossed for Rachel!!
PS She should work on her posture, though. And on 'styling'. Her dresses need something more personal, something more 'Rachelish'.
I already wrote in the SP thread that this was the first time I saw her on TV (youtube before), and to me she seems to be very musical, delicate and artistic. She really feels the music and relates to it. She adds 'something' from her heart to the programs (this is something that IMO Caroline Zhangs is not able to do. Even if she improved her artistry a bit, everything from her seems 'learnt' and a bit fake). Back to the topic - although Rachel's program was not superb yet, I have a feeling that she will be able to blossom very soon, and become as mature and as special as Michelle Kwan became all of the sudden in 1996. I keep my fingers crossed for Rachel!!
PS She should work on her posture, though. And on 'styling'. Her dresses need something more personal, something more 'Rachelish'.
I've been wondering about this. It seems that our American judges would try to emulate the international judges as much as possible. They would want to make sure the skaters they send to ISU events have the best chance of winning, so US judges must try to reward what ISU judges reward, and punish what ISU judges punish.
That's all well and good. The problem is that to untrained, non-experts like us, it looked as if Caroline and Kimmie got screwed in their events. If so, will our American judges try to duplicate this screwing?
Don't see how they were screwed. The loop wasn't what called Meissner she got the same points for it, that Kostner got for her lutz. What killed Meissner was her levels. And it's hard to argue with what she got. In the long Meissner's cheats were quite obvious.
As for Zhang, I can't disagree with the underrotations she got either.
Meissner in the long was like "what the hell... let's get this over with and let's go home to work on more"
Pretty Meissner PS: Btw, kudos 2 Rachel, I've become a fan since I saw her 4 the 1st time, like fan-love at 1st sight
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