Ladies OGM Contenders 2018

[Blades of Passion]

Evgenia's 3T has never been called UR, even in her 1st junior season when her jumps were weaker. It is practically her strongest jump. She muscles it but is not UR.

Evgenia Medvedeva's 3T is always 1/4 turn short, often even more. Look at where her toepick leaves the ice. She pulls it around VERY far on the jump takeoff, 3/4 of a turn or even more, which means she is cheating 1/4 turn of the jump before leaving the ice.

She hasn't received UR calls because the callers are not paying attention. Literally every 3S+3T combo she did last season should have been called as UR. You can see in real time how far around she pulls that toepick and I can take screencaps of every competition she did last season to show it was cheated every time. It was worst of all and blatant as day at 2016 Skate Canada, but I think the most compelling camera angle I've seen so far comes from 2017 Europeans, so I'll start there:

*Here is where Medvedeva starts reaching back for the toeloop after the 3Sal.

*Now look at how far around she has pulled her toepick when she finally leaves the ice. This is at least 3/4 of a rotation around from where she actually started the 3Toe.

*And here is where she begins to land, barely more than 2 rotations around from where she actually left the ice.

From the point that she actually leaves the ice, which is facing the camera in this screenshot, she needs to land at least 90 degrees past that (which would be perpendicular to the camera) for the jump to be considered sufficiently rotated. And when I say sufficiently rotated, I mean only 1/4 turn short.

You can clearly see that even by the time her entire blade is fully on the ice (which is past the point you consider as the landing point), she still hasn't gotten 90 degrees past her takeoff. She has not hit the 1/4 turn allowance point. Here is the screenshot of already being past the landing point and still not reaching 90 degrees of rotation.

 

[qwerty]

Evgenia Medvedeva's 3T is always 1/4 turn short, often even more. Look at where her toepick leaves the ice. She pulls it around VERY far on the jump takeoff, 3/4 of a turn or even more, which means she is cheating 1/4 turn of the jump before leaving the ice.

She hasn't received UR calls because the callers are not paying attention. Literally every 3S+3T combo she did last season should have been called as UR. You can see in real time how far around she pulls that toepick and I can take screencaps of every competition she did last season to show it was cheated every time. It was worst of all and blatant as day at 2016 Skate Canada, but I think the most compelling camera angle I've seen so far comes from 2017 Europeans, so I'll start there:

*Here is where Medvedeva starts reaching back for the toeloop after the 3Sal.

*Now look at how far around she has pulled her toepick when she finally leaves the ice. This is at least 3/4 of a rotation around from where she actually started the 3Toe.

*And here is where she begins to land, barely more than 2 rotations around from where she actually left the ice.

From the point that she actually leaves the ice, which is facing the camera in this screenshot, she needs to land at least 90 degrees past that (which would be perpendicular to the camera) for the jump to be considered sufficiently rotated. And when I say sufficiently rotated, I mean only 1/4 turn short.

You can clearly see that even by the time her entire blade is fully on the ice (which is past the point you consider as the landing point), she still hasn't gotten 90 degrees past her takeoff. She has not hit the 1/4 turn allowance point. Here is the screenshot of already being past the landing point and still not reaching 90 degrees of rotation.

To my eyes and perception it's fine. From my perspective, she takes off at the 180 degree mark (an acceptable and intrinsic amount of pre-rotation), and lands at the 1/4 mark (not with the full weight on the blade yet, either). Not her best, but not an UR.

ETA: I'm basing this off the NBC and Eurosport broadcasts on YouTube. For measuring the amount of pre-rotation on takeoff of the toe-loop, I believe it begins once the left foot contacts the ice; the first screenshot is premature.

 

[Blades of Passion]

For measuring the amount of pre-rotation on takeoff of the toe-loop, I believe it begins once the left foot contacts the ice.

That's not how it works, although it doesn't matter anyway. All that really matters in the end, assuming the skater is doing at least the normal amount of pre-rotation, is where the skater leaves the ice. That's why I picked this specific angle to show, because of how straight it is to see and explain. You can CLEARLY see how her blade leaves the ice facing "South". She needs to land 90 degrees past that point, "East". She failed to do so without a doubt; that landing is certainly not fully sideways past the launch point.

 

[largeman]

For measuring the amount of pre-rotation on takeoff of the toe-loop, I believe it begins once the left foot contacts the ice; the first screenshot is premature.

I think it's a common misconception, or perhaps we should say incorrect definition, of what pre-rotation is. Pre-rotation on takeoff of the toe-loop is the amount of rotation measured from A: the point when takeoff starts (direction of blade of the skating foot) to B: the point when the toe pick leaves the ice (direction of the blade of the picking foot).

In BoP's Zhenya example, A is the first screenshot and B is the second screenshot.

 

[largeman]

What??
All that about tech specialists being ultimate callers, how Karen's 3T could not be UR despite the hooked landing because they know best and they would have called it, and I agreed with you, until this. Evgenia's 3T has never been called UR, even in her 1st junior season when her jumps were weaker. It is practically her strongest jump. She muscles it but is not UR. This is nonsense.

The way BoP measures jump rotation is from the point the blade leaves the ice to the point the blade touches the ice again. On this basis, Zhenya's 3T spends less than 2 1/4 revolutions in the air after her toe pick leaves the ice, therefore it is underrotated. While this is the "fair" way to measure rotation of jumps across skaters who have different degrees of pre-rotation, I don't actually think it is the way tech callers determine whether a jump is < today. I believe the practice is look at the blade direction at takeoff (Point A in my post above) and look at the blade direction at landing (Point B) and whether there is a difference larger than 90 degrees. This is why Zhenya never gets a < call, even though the actual in-air rotation of her 3T may often be less than a 3T< from Mao or Mirai.

 

[qwerty]

I think it's a common misconception, or perhaps we should say incorrect definition, of what pre-rotation is. Pre-rotation on takeoff of the toe-loop is the amount of rotation measured from A: the point when takeoff starts (direction of blade of the skating foot) to B: the point when the toe pick leaves the ice (direction of the blade of the picking foot).

In BoP's Zhenya example, A is the first screenshot and B is the second screenshot.

Thank you for the information- I must admit I'm basing my comments off my own skating experience (just doubles!) more than anything. Where are you getting this definition? I checked the ISU handbook and it's relatively uninvolved about the takeoffs of jumps- basically just warning against toe-axels. http://static.isu.org/media/1003/2017-18-singles-tp-handbook_updatedaug15.pdf

To me, the second screenshot is already about 45 degrees into the jump- yes, the toepick is perhaps on the ice, but I think that's a normal part of triple and quadruple jumps.

 

[Blades of Passion]

To me, the second screenshot is already about 45 degrees into the jump- yes, the toepick is perhaps on the ice, but I think that's a normal part of triple and quadruple jumps.

It's definitely not normal, you're not supposed to be twisting around on the ice like that. If you look at a standard toeloop, the toepick will leave the ice after 180 degrees of starting the jump. In the past some people (like Daisuke Takahashi) would even leave the ice after just 90 degrees, making the jump even more difficult. Nobody does that anymore, as jump technique has become more refined these days, although some people still do it on their Lutz and Flip (and that's ideally the way those jumps should be taking off).

In any jump, though, pulling around on your toepick more than 180 degrees is a cheat and you are going to need to land that much further around for it to be a legitimate jump. Which is to say, a Triple jump needs a minimum of 2.25 rotations in the air and a Quad needs a minimum of 3.25 rotations in the air.

I checked the ISU handbook and it's relatively uninvolved about the takeoffs of jumps.

Yes you won't find anything there, nor in the actual ISU training courses for tech specialists. The ISU very much needs to address it, as it's currently just at the whim of the individual knowledge of tech panels, with no explanation needing to be given for the calls made.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

:sarcasm:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Thank you for the information- I must admit I'm basing my comments off my own skating experience (just doubles!) more than anything. Where are you getting this definition? I checked the ISU handbook and it's relatively uninvolved about the takeoffs of jumps- basically just warning against toe-axels. http://static.isu.org/media/1003/2017-18-singles-tp-handbook_updatedaug15.pdf

To me, the second screenshot is already about 45 degrees into the jump- yes, the toepick is perhaps on the ice, but I think that's a normal part of triple and quadruple jumps.

Tech specialists care more about the direction of the blade at the exact moment the pick was placed onto the ice (in the case of toe jumps).

In a toe-axel, the skater will rotate their body forward prior to picking, and then place the pick onto the ice facing forward -- as if they were about to do an axel but then jump off the toe pick instead of the blade (hence, the term "toe-axel"). This is different from a skater facing backwards (or sufficiently backwards) at the moment where they pick and they place their toe pick onto the ice they are within this 180 degrees (so no pre-rotation call), and then there is some rotation on the ice. Medvedeva is turning on her pick, but she is not deliberately turning forward and then placing her toe pick into the ice.

Essentially there are 4 ways you could execute a toe jump :

1) You vault off your toe and rely on the height you get from the vault (like Jin's or Kim's lutz)
2) Your toe pick enters the ice within 180 degrees and then you turn on the pick but not so much that you are more than 180 degrees forward at the moment of takeoff.
3) Your toe pick enters the ice within 180 degrees and then you turn on the pick but to a point where you are more than 180 degrees forward at the moment of takeoff. (which is what BoP is saying Medvedeva is doing; Uno/Miyahara also face this criticism)
4) Your toe pick enters the ice beyond 180 degrees (i.e. while the skater is facing forward) as I've described above, and then you takeoff -- easier done on a toe loop than a flip or lutz (as that would twist up a body if your entry pick was facing forward; no videos on youtube of it, but I think Nam is an example of a skater who is close to toe-axeling)

The 4th one is the one that is definite "cheated takeoff". The 3rd one is what people seem to be complaining about the most, but isn't getting deemed a "cheated takeoff". The 2nd one isn't ideal, but a great number (I'd say the majority) of skaters do it (especially the ladies who rotate a bit on the ice when generating rotation). The 1st one is the best technique, but rare because most skaters can't vault up and then rotate, they have to rotate a little bit on the pick as they take-off.

 

[gotoschool]

This is why Zhenya never gets a < call, even though the actual in-air rotation of her 3T may often be less than a 3T< from Mao or Mirai.

While I agree with your visual observation, your implication does not make sense to me because it seems to justify the contradictory ruling that a jump with more air rotation receives a ur call AND what is not mentioned negative GOE and a jump with less rotation receives full base value AND high GOE which is an enormous score difference of 30 percent or more on one big combination element, or more than 60 percent if you consider its contradictory nature. I haven't looked at Mirai's jumps as closely as Mao's compared to other skaters, but I do agree that her calls on this have seemed very harsh at times. But, to make it more of a contradiction Mao also has superior height and distance in the beginning of the combination with the double axel along with a tight leg wrap and more erect posture on landing. This is why the measurement of jumps lacks credibility to me because of calls like this and others that are totally bogus. Given its contradictions in actual rotation based on visual evidence, it seems to me it is just targeting certain skaters who are unfavored.

 

[Grin]

Elizaveta Tuktamisheva won SPB cup yesterday (213.35). Seems she is back

 

[largeman]

While I agree with your visual observation, your implication does not make sense to me because it seems to justify the contradictory ruling that a jump with more air rotation receives a ur call AND what is not mentioned negative GOE and a jump with less rotation receives full base value AND high GOE which is an enormous score difference of 30 percent or more on one big combination element, or 60 percent if you consider its contradictory nature. I haven't looked at Mirai's jumps as closely as Mao's compared to other skaters, but I do agree that her calls on this have seemed very harsh at times. But, to make it more of a contradiction Mao also has superior height and distance in the beginning of the combination with the double axel along with a tight leg wrap and more erect posture on landing. This is why the measurement of jumps often lacks credibility to me with many instances of being bogus. Given its contradictions in actual rotation based on visual evidence, it seems to me it could just be targeting certain skaters who are unfavored.

I am only trying to explain (based on what I've observed) how URs are called by tech panels today, rather than justifying it. You must know how I feel about excessively pre-rotated jumps, from all my rants in the past about the GOEs Zhenya and Satoko receive on some of their jumps.

However, I think it is a systemic flaw with how jump rotation is examined by tech panels today and how judges often neglect other positive aspects of a jump once it's marked UR — rather than some sort of conspiracy against certain skaters.

Of course, it is true (and unfortunate) that once a skater establishes a reputation as an "chronic underrotater," their jumps are put under extra scrutiny and are often subject to extra harsh calls... while skaters who don't have such a reputation get away with URs from time to time.

 

[LRK]

Maybe it would be better to start a Prerotation/Underrotation-thread, as the discussion is rather derailing this one?

 

[mrrice]

Elizaveta Tuktamisheva won SPB cup yesterday (213.35). Seems she is back

I sure hope she can keep her form and get herself to the Olympics. She was the "It" girl in 2015 and I would really like to see her back in the hunt at the big events. There are so many great skaters in Russia and with Alina Zagitova coming up, she will need to be perfect if she's going to get herself back on the Russian podium.

 

[Grin]

I sure hope she can keep her form and get herself to the Olympics. She was the "It" girl in 2015 and I would really like to see her back in the hunt at the big events. There are so many great skaters in Russia and with Alina Zagitova coming up, she will need to be perfect if she's going to get herself back on the Russian podium.

People say she has successfully landed 3A in her FS. It's a pity there is no video atm (

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Elizaveta Tuktamisheva won SPB cup yesterday (213.35). Seems she is back

She's definitely made the Russian ladies competition that much more exciting! Wish there were videos, but adding the 3A back in sounds very promising. I pray that she has good programs and costumes... she really could be an OGM contender if she stepped up her overall skating, instead of just the jumps.

 

[4everchan]

She's definitely made the Russian ladies competition that much more exciting! Wish there were videos, but adding the 3A back in sounds very promising. I pray that she has good programs and costumes... she really could be an OGM contender if she stepped up her overall skating, instead of just the jumps.

i don't count on good programs and costumes... i actually miss seeing her... and i hope she will be back with her dubious programs and garments as in some ways, it's a trademark of hers LOL... and it gives me something to talk about LOL

 

[Ender]

then just a question

i am not a skater and definitely not a tech specialist...

whether or not i see a jump < or << is probably up for debate... so I'd like to ask the "experts" of GS the following question.


I dislike when a skater has a hook landing... are skaters penalized for that? Shouldn't a jump have its clear and flowing landing edge? Skaters are penalized for very stiff/stopped landings and 2Foot landings... are they marked down for the hooks? I am talking GOE obviously....

Because in any case, whether or not Karen's jumps here are rotated, there is still a flaw in her technical ability if she constantly hooks the landings... we have seen this with other skaters as well...

Should she be penalized?

I would say Karen Chen should not get GOE for her 3-3 (as well as other jump landings like that, it doesn't need to be her).

 

[Bluediamonds09]

When will this conversation end?

 

[Ender]

Then watch Ashley's 3F-3T combos, especially as commentated by the British Eurosport guys. During the performances, they almost always rave about the jumps' good speed & flow out, and that the jumps looked clean. Then, on slo-mo replay, they sometimes have second thoughts.

IMHO, any tech replays should be done at actual speed. If an UR can't be seen without several close-up slo-mo reviews, the jump should be counted as clean.

I rarely seen very smooth landings from Wagner to be honest. That's my opinion.