Ladies Short Program (will there be another judging fiasco?)

[*Sniper*]

About bowing, the key is, sell, sell, sell!

That's the skater's chance to tell the judges and the audience, "that was the greatest thing you ever saw, right? Flub? What flub? Did you see a flub? I didn't see any flub."

Maria Butyrskaya was terrible at it. When she messed up, her body language and facial expression in ner closing bows said, "well, that sucked."

Ah, THANK YOU!
I guess that's what I've been meaning to say.


By the way, with Yuna stumbling and Stephane w---------ay down there in terms of points, a lot of people will be feasting on their on words if things don't turn around tomorrow!

 

[Mathman]

By the way, with Yuna stumbling and Stephane w---------ay down there in terms of points, a lot of people will be feasting on their on words if things don't turn around tomorrow!

Yes they will, especially when Bebe mounts the comeback of the century and lands on the podium!

 

[dwiggin3]

So I finally had a chance to look at all three ladies at CoC (Kostner, Zhang and Kim). I agree with Kostner in first but I would have but Kim second and Zhang third.

I find Caroline Kostner's program really creative. I liked the music...the scratchy part at first was odd but I gave it a chance and it moved into something nice. I think it grabs your attention - in a odd way and holds you in just long enough to surprise you. I loved her costume! I loved her tie-died one last year as well (I have a thing for costumes and Kostner has had some not-so-nice ones IMO) I also felt the choreography was innovative and she sold the program well. I'd like to see the Neblehorn program that folks say is better. Not sure if she two footed the 3/3 but I liked that she went for it. I'm not always a fan of her skating. Like the other ladies, she has long limbs but she doesn't control them as well. They sort of flop and flip around. In the catagory of body control, I'd put her in third. I also really dislike the telegraphing of her jumps. It's like we see her making good effort to be charismatic and graceful then she abandons it to jump then goes back to trying to be graceful. Not a fan. However, I do like this program and will be interested to see how it progresses. Give all that, I agree with her pacement

I find Kim's skating very nice. I like that she is able to control her limbs and they have purpose when moving. They're not flapping around and like Kostner. I would prefer a more creative program...I thought it was flatter than Kostner...though I think a lot of it has to do with the fact she does not pick up on the waltz tempo. I think if she could learn it, I would bring the program to life - in a different way than Kostner but as effective.

Zhang - I'm not crazy about the music. I see why people like her. She has a grace and control of her body that does remind me a bit of Cohen but there was something I didn't like about Sasha that I don't like about Caroline. It goes back to my "organic" movement theory. I just don't bye that this is really Caroline and not just show-time. I'm having difficulty articulating my dislike and perhaps its because I can't put my finger on it, but I know its there. I know its all about the performance but aside from her technical issues in jumping, I'm just not sold on her.

WRLMY - you're description of Kostner a "cool" is right on. There is a cool, calm sometimes sophisticated sense to her. I like it.

Someone earlier talked about Kostner not being as musical as Kim and Zhang but they appreciated her attempts to work on it. I agree totally. Right on

 

[feraina]

I hate how the music was 2 sec out of sync with Caroline's skating. But I also thought that her 3/3 was more fully landed than both at SA. To all the people who complained about the under-rotation, what were you seeing? The video has a pretty good top-down view, and pausing it at the right places I didn't detect any UR.

I thought it was going to be some horribly slow program, after everyone complaining about this, including Caroline and her coach. But having watched it, I thought it was no slower than the LP at SA, and there Caroline got pretty high PCS's.

I don't think Caroline necessarily needs to replace the 3Z with the 3Lp. She has very little flow coming out of the 3Lp, but 3Z is one of her best jumps in terms of flow and distance. God knows that the last thing she needs is another element to slow her right down! Besides, she's doing great with the TES in the SP! It's her PCS that really needs attention. Gaining a .5 through TES won't help her nearly as much as working on her speed/flow.

Besides the lack of speed, I thought it was a great program. Mostly certainly it should've placed higher than Yu-na's, since Yu-na made a major mistake in popping the required combo -- remember how far back it set Mao at World's?

Am I the only one who thinks it questionable that Kostner should place ahead of Zhang? Kostner struggled with the landing on both the 3F and 3Z, and she had pretty weak spins and unsteady spirals. Her footwork was pretty slow, and in general her skating was not as fast as usual. Plus, I often felt like the skating didn't go with the music at all, like how I felt watching Caroline's video, which had a serious 2-sec delay, except the music started and ended at the right places.

 

[HCOSurfer]

Very nice skate from Caroline but does anyone know what happened to Bebe, her score is VERY low.

 

[GoldMedalist]

At SA, Caroline's 3-3 combo was ratified as 2-3 in sp and 3-2 in lp. Quite interesting, no?

2-2 in the LP.

Her toeloop definitely looked better at CoC. It was still short, but I don't think overly so. It was the Flip that looked more suspect this time. It seems like she slows down just a bit too much in order to make the landing solid enough to get the 3Toe in. Quite normal, though. There are all sorts of things going on in your head when you approach that kind of jumping pass. A sufficiently-rotated 3-3 is not easy and she shouldn't be expected to have the combo consistent in her first season trying.

 

[eleonora.d]

Carolina Kostner Short Program at Nebelhorn2007
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=RfFjXVrYxoI
Carolina Kostner Long Program at Nebelhorn2007
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=UVQ7wdYtAi8

 

[chuckm]

I have to say I've never been a Carolina Kostner fan. She is so darned inconsistent that she reminds me of Emanuel Sandhu. She can be going along great guns, and splat! the rest of the program is a disaster.

Yes, she is fast, fast, fast. But when she is about to jump she raises her very long arms at head level as if she were reaching for a sky hook to help her get height on the jump. This habit makes her look awkward and unfinished.

Her spins are just average, and her footwork can be very good one time and disastrous the next. So if her jumps aren't working, her FS is often a minefield and very hard to watch. JMO.

 

[bubbleyum]

ok, so i've watched yuna's short about a dozen times now, and the program is growing on me. i think you just have to play closer attention to her upper body and the subtle moves that go along with the "sway" (don't know if that's the appropriate word to use but) of the music. and i don't know what a waltz rhythm/beat is, but since more knowledgeable ppl here have posted that it's missing from the choreography i will defer to their opinion... but anyways, overall i am liking this program much better.

the only thing that still bugs me is that ina bauer into the 2-axel move. last year it was this sweeping gliding edge into a jump that was great to see... this season, they made it more dramatic (yuna reaches back way farther with her back bend a la arakawa), but then the arm movements that go along with it make it look like a pre-circus act type of thing. does that make sense? as if she's like "watch this trick i'm about to do!" i dunno how to explain it, it just bugs me. but then in some way it DOES go along with the sway of the music played right then, so if she did nothing with her arms it might look blah too. i hope david wilson fixes this somehow before the season is over! because i want yuna's programs to be PERFECT!! ha. forgive my annoying humble opinions, y'all.

 

[bekalc]

[Besides the lack of speed, I thought it was a great program. Mostly certainly it should've placed higher than Yu-na's, since Yu-na made a major mistake in popping the required combo -- remember how far back it set Mao at World's?

Yeah, but Yu-na's score was lower than Mao's score at worlds.....What build Yu-na up I'm guessing, is she probably got high GOE's for her double axel and her triple lutz.

Her double axel with the ina bauer is incredible. And her triple lutz is huge, and takes off from the correct edge.
Then, she got the highest PC scores of the night, which I think is quite fair. She skates with nice speed (like Kostner) and skates with a lot of grace like (Caroline) she's the combination of the two, which is what you want... Yu-na's score is quite low for her....Considering that Yu-na always gets high marks for her 3/3, (sometimes 2 points extra credit) her little mistake probably cost her about 8 to 10 points if not more)

What did Mao in was the people she was skating against....Because so many of them skated so well...

 

[bubbleyum]

reading my own post made me feel like i'm being so negative. so i'm gonna point out some things i really liked about yuna's short.

one of yuna's biggest strengths i think is the fact that she is able to put herself on autopilot technically, when she's competing, so she does not telegraph her jumps or procrastinate on them because she's nervous. she is able to have the exact right timing just like they practiced in the choreography. i think this really helps on keeping in time with the music and her overall artistic impression. you can see it in last year's programs, and in yesterday's short. for example, the 3-lutz, which was HUGE (as usual), was taken off right at the sound of the church bell ringing, and the 2-axel and ina bauer is right there with the music. i've seen that a lot of other skaters try to "follow along" with the choreography until they have to concentrate on their jumps, and if they are nervous, the edge leading into the jump gets prolonged or rushed, throwing them off with the music, but then they treat their choreography like it's "something they go back to" once their jump element is over.

i think she is just a calm type of person that doesn't easily fret about things, which helps with competition nerves. i saw her say in an interview that when she falls in a program, she thinks it's no big deal. she just gets up and tries to finish the rest the best she can. so it doesn't affect her mentality negatively for the rest of the program.

love yuna :agree:

 

[bubbleyum]

About bowing, the key is, sell, sell, sell!

That's the skater's chance to tell the judges and the audience, "that was the greatest thing you ever saw, right? Flub? What flub? Did you see a flub? I didn't see any flub."

Maria Butyrskaya was terrible at it. When she messed up, her body language and facial expression in ner closing bows said, "well, that sucked."

well, i don't know about this whole "sell sell sell" thing. because, there are certain lady skaters who annoy me to no end with this. they skate a bad dumpy program that is fully of heavy, squeaked out jumps and then they have the biggest smile on their face (whether it's after the bad jump, or at the end of the whole program) when they bow and wave as if they've just done the best program of their lives. ANNOYING.

 

[Wrlmy]

well, i don't know about this whole "sell sell sell" thing. because, there are certain lady skaters who annoy me to no end with this. they skate a bad dumpy program that is fully of heavy, squeaked out jumps and then they have the biggest smile on their face (whether it's after the bad jump, or at the end of the whole program) when they bow and wave as if they've just done the best program of their lives. ANNOYING.

You are with Dick right there You celebrate after doing a slightly flawed yet nice skate, then you are the biggest dumbaxx in the world! LOL

 

[slutskayafan21]

well, i don't know about this whole "sell sell sell" thing. because, there are certain lady skaters who annoy me to no end with this. they skate a bad dumpy program that is fully of heavy, squeaked out jumps and then they have the biggest smile on their face (whether it's after the bad jump, or at the end of the whole program) when they bow and wave as if they've just done the best program of their lives. ANNOYING.

Emily Hughes for you anyone.

 

[chuckm]

I remember Emily's face when she came off the ice after her FS at Worlds. She thought she had nailed her program and was in high spirits. Then she saw her mark (98.18, 13th in the FS) and was totally shocked. The judges had downgraded both flips and her solo lutz.

She had been so busy selling her program that she overlooked completely rotating her jumps.

 

[slutskayafan21]

I remember Emily's face when she came off the ice after her FS at Worlds. She thought she had nailed her program and was in high spirits. Then she saw her mark (98.18, 13th in the FS) and was totally shocked. The judges had downgraded both flips and her solo lutz.

She had been so busy selling her program that she overlooked completely rotating her jumps.

Yeah I remember that well too. Her facial expression changed drastically in the kiss-and-cry when the score came up.

 

[R.D.]

Emily Hughes for you anyone.

Kinda funny cause I thought the same thing when I read it. But I also thought of someone else who you may not have suspected...and that is...

Alyssa Czisny.

I think she's an even BETTER example than Hughes because this girl can splat four times and still have that wide grinning smile at the end. I remember back in the days I praised her smile and expression as genuine. Well, I almost did a complete 180 on that. I believe it's just all choreographed now. Of course, I think she was truly happy after her '07 Nats FS, as she should have been, but other times I think it was phoned in. I could also mention a couple of others but I will elect not to.

 

[R.D.]

About bowing, the key is, sell, sell, sell!

May have worked back in 6.0 days. But now things are much more mathematical and mechanical.

One must strike the BALANCE between the two. Make your routine exciting yet point-friendly. On one end you have Emily Hughes who, may I stress, ON THE ICE I think can be quite entertaining...she knows how to work a crowd...most of the time, anyway. (I happen to think her current FS is snooze-inducing, though. Just doesn't fit her.) On the other end, you have someone like Mao Asada or Kimmie Meissner who just goes out there, "does business", and comes back. (I must give the latter credit for trying to create more of a balance, though.)

So you might be wanting to ask me now, who do you think DOES strike the balance? hmm. Based on last year I'd say Yuna, but I have not seen her this year (and likely won't unless she either gets shown on the supposed ABC telecast of worlds or is posted on Youtube).

 

[Wrlmy]

Kinda funny cause I thought the same thing when I read it. But I also thought of someone else who you may not have suspected...and that is...

Alyssa Czisny.

I think she's an even BETTER example than Hughes because this girl can splat four times and still have that wide grinning smile at the end. I remember back in the days I praised her smile and expression as genuine. Well, I almost did a complete 180 on that. I believe it's just all choreographed now. Of course, I think she was truly happy after her '07 Nats FS, as she should have been, but other times I think it was phoned in. I could also mention a couple of others but I will elect not to.

To be fair, after her Nats fs, her face had a real glow. She had that overwhelming look and a genuine smile which I adored. Many other times, however, I agree that her smile was forced. So what should be the best reaction after less than stellar program? The reason I loved Yuna's look is because she expressed her disappointment in such non-diva way. It was charming
Emily's ginormous grin is little too much. OTOH, Nakano gets real intimidating after disappoiting performance which I noticed on several occasions. IMO, Miki handled pretty well at SA sp and Sasha on many occasions.

 

[R.D.]

So what should be the best reaction after less than stellar program?

IMO, of course, before the picky folks start in on me

There IS no "best reaction" after a bad performance. But my point is, it's ok to look disappointed or unhappy afterwards (of course, within reason). A smile at the end of a program is NOT mandatory and shouldn't be. If it comes about at the wrong time, I just see right through it. YMMV, of course.

Emily's ginormous grin is little too much. OTOH, Nakano gets real intimidating after disappoiting performance which I noticed on several occasions. IMO, Miki handled pretty well at SA sp and Sasha on many occasions.

Oh, Emily. Thing about her is, I've always liked something about her...maybe it's just the passion, excitement, and vibe that she actually LIKES what she is doing out there. I just don't see that in other skaters (except maybe Kwan in her heyday). But those compliments are restricted only to ON THE ICE. Off it, I sense some "attitude" in her that just flips my switch off. (Oddly enough, same with sister Sarah!) I consider Meissner the complete opposite- likeable off the ice, but just...missing that oomph and spark on it.

I didn't want to mention Cohen, but since you did, she's another one that I think fakes a lot of expressions...and I'll leave it at that.