Ladies SP
- Thread starter Doggygirl
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"Just for the record, I've always felt that, in general, Irina has skated with great musicality, flow, and upper body line"
I too have to completely disagree. At times during her programs she has her upper body almost horizontal to the ice. Her crosscuts are laboured as well! I do love her height in her jumps but her inbetweens are severely lacking and she does not warrant 8's for PCS. As for musicality Irina almost always choses "muzak" to skate to with the same monotenous beat going through the program so it has been very difficult to judge her in that department!
"Just for the record, I've always felt that, in general, Irina has skated with great musicality, flow, and upper body line"
I too have to completely disagree. At times during her programs she has her upper body almost horizontal to the ice. Her crosscuts are laboured as well! I do love her height in her jumps but her inbetweens are severely lacking and she does not warrant 8's for PCS. As for musicality Irina almost always choses "muzak" to skate to with the same monotenous beat going through the program so it has been very difficult to judge her in that department!
Mathman said:
Yes, this is exactly the problem. Slutskaya is NOT that much better a skater than all those mentioned here, even if one was to argue she's the best out there, which IMO, is not the case.
From descriptions I've read of the program, it's a Beilman extravaganza. The ability to contort one's body into a Beilman position over and over again should not be the new benchmark in figure skating. To this point I've like COP because it has taken the emphasis away from a skater's ability to perform one or two specific moves and placed it on a program's totality. But Slutskaya's well-rewarded reliance on the Beilman has shown up a weakness in a system that was supposed to reward diversity.
The judges need to start realistically assessing Slutskaya's musicality - or lack thereof - her poor posture, and sometimes awkward movements. There are plenty of good qualities for them to reward, such as her speed, sure edges, generally fast spins and high and consistent jumps, they don't need to pretend everything's superior.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
Good point, MM. I also agree with everyone that it is too soon to be giving away the Olympic Gold medal. Kwan looked like the heavy favorite heading into Nagano and that didn't pan out. Slutskaya also was a frontrunner for Gold in 2002, but the Olympic pressure was too much for her. Irina has often started out the season on a strong note. She was spectacular at the 2001 Goodwill Games, but she struggled through a series of lackluster performances (including the 2002 Olympics) afterward. Then again, she was almost entirely solid last year (with the exception of Europeans). So, anything could happen. I am glad Irina is skating well, but that certainly doesn't make her unbeatable (even under COP). We haven't even seen two of the top four ladies in the world compete yet..........a little soon to be crowning the next Olympic Champ, IMO! 
A good point you have raised. Maybe I'm just letting Irina's ridiculously high score discourage me here. But I think that the Cop makes it easier for a skater to build such a big lead that even if that skater were to crumble it would take a lifetime performance from the lady behind her to even catch up. But we'll see. Another thing is that Irina did struggle at Euros in Torino. Will the same thing happen at the Olys? Even the mentally tough seem to fall victim to the Oly pressure at times, so hopefully we'll be in for some surprises...
True, too, that if Irina DOES skate well enough to be far ahead in the OLYs that's another thing.
True, too, that if Irina DOES skate well enough to be far ahead in the OLYs that's another thing.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Piel said:
How about Slutspiracy?! As far as i'm concerned unless Slutskaya has had a complete change in the choreography of her programs (though gratned her SPs are usually better in that department than her LPs) and her basic skating she does not deserve marks marks in the v high 7s and v low 8s. In terms of stroking and edging i think Arakawa has her beaten on this along with posture and carriage and flow. Unless of course Arakawa has gone down hill since last year.
If you wanted to take the Slutspiracy to its logical conclusion one might say she been marked so far in the lead in the SP to ensure that even if Asada completes both 3/3s and a 3A she won't be able to catch Irina up. I suspect that the lower Irina's TES scores, the higher the PCS scores will be.
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
gkelly said:
I never knew the juniors weren't allowed to do 3/3s in the SP...is that just the ladies or is it the men too? If it doesn't include the men, seems like a pretty sexist rule seeing as how Mao can probaly outjump all of the junior men and most of the senior men too!!
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
gezando said:Mao completed triple lutz, triple flip/triple loop, and a double axel. Maybe she will put in a triple axel next time.
Are the ladeis allowed to do triple axels in the short? I think its another on eof those stupid situations where the ladies rule shaven't caught up with the mens. I think according to the rules the ladies can't try quads and they can't do double or triple axel it has to be double axel.
Ant
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2003
Ok, first of all, I was being sarcastic in my last post.
I don't think, by any means, that the OGM is sewn up for Irina. She's still going to have to bring it to the Olympics. She hasn't really skated against anyone that can give her a run for her money except Shizuka in the Japan Challenge, and I thought Irina's LP was awful. It was slow and methodical and she looked like she lost a lot of steam towards the end.
I don't want to watch her SP if it's a Biellmann fest because I think that's just ridiculous and makes a mockery out of skating when someone can do a certain move over and over and over ad nauseum to rack up points. Ugh!
Irina has power and speed, and when she's doing well, awesome jumps. However she can be beaten, but that's only if she's not given a radical lead in the SP.
I don't think, by any means, that the OGM is sewn up for Irina. She's still going to have to bring it to the Olympics. She hasn't really skated against anyone that can give her a run for her money except Shizuka in the Japan Challenge, and I thought Irina's LP was awful. It was slow and methodical and she looked like she lost a lot of steam towards the end.
I don't want to watch her SP if it's a Biellmann fest because I think that's just ridiculous and makes a mockery out of skating when someone can do a certain move over and over and over ad nauseum to rack up points. Ugh!
Irina has power and speed, and when she's doing well, awesome jumps. However she can be beaten, but that's only if she's not given a radical lead in the SP.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Mathman said:You might be on to something. Mao's score was higher than anything Michelle or Sasha ever posted, so when Irina came along, what are you going to do?
Layman, thanks for joining in, and welcome to the forum! (Even though you are kind of hard on my girl, Irina, LOL.)
Rgirl, true, but look how pretty Michelle is
http://www.eastwesticepalace.com/photos/michelle-kwan/7687.jpg
MM
Well Asada skated last so the very high marks for Slutskaya came before the judges had seen Asada skate.
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Mathman said:
Just to totally re-iterate that - i have no problem with Irina's skating. I can nit pick (heck i can nit pick about most things!) on parts of her skating but she is mostly a phenomenal skater who i love watching. I merely query what the judges are doing in giving her such high PCS scores. That has nothing to do with Irina and my only fear is that there is corruption afoot but with secret judging we won't know who to blame. If Irina wins the Oly gold with a questionable program or programs, or because of an insurmountable lead in the SP over a North American then my concerns would be Slutskaya's marketability in North America (where the most money is to be made in pro skating) after the Olympics.
Ant
SusanBeth said:
This really is the only way the PCS scores make sense to me....i think she probably deserved 8's for SS period, but choreography, i think, should be notably lower (front loaded, for example, and turn the music off, it doesn't matter at all for the program).
Having said that, this program was skated powerfully....I mean, I have no doubt that Irina must have appeared like from Mars (exceptional) compared to the rest of the field. Her jumps looked really high and I noticed that she had much better run out (at least on the vid I saw) than earlier this season (where she seemed to just stop in her tracks), and while there are a lot of Bielmans, and somehow think that should affect negatively parts of the PCS scores, they were executed really well. She also just had that thing that I think Plushy always has too....just utter command of the ice and amazing stage presence....you just can't look away.
Onto another sakter.....Mao: absolutely and utterly adorable not to mention WOW talented....it will be an absolute pleasure watching her this season, and I truly hope for many seasons to come. I love the orange dress, loved the triple flip triple loop
, couldn't tell if her lutz was on the correct edge but she looked good....and boy, her bielman's are beautiful...loved her!Shiza...I love her, but she seemed 'not into' it...i have to rewatch the program...but first work!
I think when Irina is "on" she definitely can deserve 8s in Skating Skills and Performance/Execution.
But there are few if any Transitions, Choreography and Interpretation in her programs, and I can't see her scoring more than 7-7.5 in those areas.
Her programs are jam-packed with technical elements to the point that she speeds from element to element with nothing in between but stroking or pauses where she telegraphs the next jump. Her stroking is powerful, but she pumps her shoulders forward which isn't the least bit graceful. Her struggles to get into the ubitquitous Biellmann are awkward, to say the least, and her spins travel, sometimes badly, because of the shifts in body weight.
Judges are clearly using PCS scores just like the presentation scores under 6.0, to place the skaters where they want them. But unlike 6.0, the PCS scores allow the judges to give a skater an unsurmountable lead early on in a competition, so that victory is assured even if a skater has a subpar FS and others skate brilliantly.
But there are few if any Transitions, Choreography and Interpretation in her programs, and I can't see her scoring more than 7-7.5 in those areas.
Her programs are jam-packed with technical elements to the point that she speeds from element to element with nothing in between but stroking or pauses where she telegraphs the next jump. Her stroking is powerful, but she pumps her shoulders forward which isn't the least bit graceful. Her struggles to get into the ubitquitous Biellmann are awkward, to say the least, and her spins travel, sometimes badly, because of the shifts in body weight.
Judges are clearly using PCS scores just like the presentation scores under 6.0, to place the skaters where they want them. But unlike 6.0, the PCS scores allow the judges to give a skater an unsurmountable lead early on in a competition, so that victory is assured even if a skater has a subpar FS and others skate brilliantly.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Piel said:
You got it!! Business partners!! OT, but a sort of funny story. When we show our German Shepherds we do it within the German system, so there are always German judges, and German handlers, and German breeders sprinkled out and about at the shows. But the highest % of people there at the US based comps don't speak German. Breeders generally have kennel names, typicall in German, that represent a family name, or location, or some other meaning, or just something that sounds German but means nothing at all.
So hubby and I thought it would be funny to make up T-Shirts with "our own" kennel name (we're not breeders, so we don't have one!) that would say "Vom Haus Ungehorsomer Hunde." People who didn't speak German would just pass us by, but the Germans would all do a double take. That means "Of the House of Disobedient Dogs."
Thought this thread could use a bit of levity - OK, back to regular programming.
DG
euterpe said:
How closely have you watched her short programs from last year or this year? (Have you seen this year's program yet? I downloaded it last night.) How do you define transitions? I suspect you're not seeing some of the details that I do and that the judges must be seeing.
As I posted on FSU this morning,
Mathman, Sasha Cohen still holds the record for highest ladies' short program score under the new judging system, but that was from the 2003-04 season (Skate Canada), before there was an adjustment of the standards for the component scores.
Where could Cohen and Kwan gain 9 points on their short programs from Moscow Worlds?
-Cohen would need to land her flip on one foot, take off from an outside edge on her lutz, not bobble her spiral sequence, not take a time deduction, and/or skate with so much fire and as much detail to her musical expression as she can manage that the judges will have to give her component scores in the 8s.
-Kwan would need to add some more difficult spins and maybe steps, more transitions, be solid throughout her spiral sequence and not just on the change edge part, and skate even more "on" and expressively.
They could also, assuming they could do it successfully, substitute a double loop or triple toe for the double toe in their jump combinations, or perhaps go for 3toe-3toe and 3lutz out of steps, or maybe add some special feature to one of their jumps like an arm variation or the attitude spiral landing that young teenage Kwan used to do on her double axels.
ant, it's only been about a decade that junior ladies have been required to do even one triple in the short program -- double-double was allowed in the mid-90s and required in the early 80s maybe early 90s. And senior ladies have only had the 3-3 option since 1996-97, triple out of steps since 94-95. Now that quite a few of the juniors have been doing triple-triples in their long programs recently, I wouldn't be surprised if that option is added to the junior ladies' SP at the 2006 ISU Congress, or if not then in 2008.
Senior ladies, like junior men, do have the option of including a triple axel in the short program, but it has to be in the combination -- the solo axel is required to be double.
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