Lysacek optimistic his issues with U.S. skating close to resolution

[evangeline]

SIX triples in the back half of his program? I really hope Lysacek is joking, because I can't imagine what kind of dubious, choreographically-bankrupt program would result from such extreme back-loading.

 

[Skater Boy]

This is a personal quirk I have I kind of like to know black and white or yes or no are you skating or not. So once you are gone;you are gone. But I will admit I wouldn't mind seeing Joannie Rochette come back and sort of finish off her career. That being said as for Evan; I do believe he could be competitive. I am not sure even with a quad he really from what we have seen in the best should "best" a clean Takahashi, Fernadez, Kozuk or Chan especially Tak and Chan. He was and is a great competitor but like BOP intimated I certainly can't say his clean quadless routines that won a World and Olympic title were of the same quality as a Lambiel, Takahahshi or Chan. He doesn't have the skating skills, though good, as those skaters. I do believe he has maybe the best competitive spirit and from what I know had the best of everything in respect to supports - coaches, trainers, choreographers and even costume designer to allow him to succeed. (Side note not sure really if Vera Wang is always the best designer - pretty but not necessarily best "costume" with the them of the music) This is illogical but I kind of think he had his time and really was kind of "lucky" - don't push it (LOL). Go out as World and Olympic champion.

 

[seniorita]

^ Evangeline, Amodio did it this season, the 2-6 I mean. The way backloading works for 5 passes or more, it ends up the skater at the very end to go back to back to jumps. Not Chan and Daisuke with their SS but many of the rest. Of course frontloading is the same back to back, but I like that at the end there is a peak in the program rather than see all the 5 passes rushed.
I like the 4-4 model some skaters do.
If they start all backloading their programs with 6 jumping passes, in the future maybe you get extra 10% if you frontload them.

 

[evangeline]

^ Amodio did it this season. The way backloading works for 5 passes or more, it ends up the skater at the very end to go back to back to jumps. Not Chan and Daisuke with their SS but many of the rest. Of course frontloading is the same back to back, but I like that at the end there is a peak in the program rather than see all the 5 passes rushed.

Exactly. And Florent's LP this year--for the lack of a better term--sucks. Based on past choreographic efforts, I highly doubt that Lysacek's six-triples-in-the-second-half program would look any better. Whatever happened to having a well-balanced and proportioned program?

 

[demarinis5]

SIX triples in the back half of his program? I really hope Lysacek is joking, because I can't imagine what kind of dubious, choreographically-bankrupt program would result from such extreme back-loading.

I think that Dai does five or six triples in the back half of his program to get the extra credit.

 

[Violet Bliss]

It's common to do the 4th jump right at the beginning of the back half of the program, thus a 3-5 split is still quite balanced while getting the bonuses on 5 back loaded jump. A 2-6 distribution is jamming too much in the end, is unbalanced, and may backfire if the skater runs out of steam. A main reason for bonuses on later jumps is because they are harder to do when the skater is tired, thus front loading a program is almost cheating. It's also why the big jumps are done off the top instead of later for the considerable bonuses such jumps would incur. No one has earned a quad bonus as far as I know. They don't even try.

 

[Buttercup]

It's common to do the 4th jump right at the beginning of the back half of the program, thus a 3-5 split is still quite balanced while getting the bonuses on 5 back loaded jump. A 2-6 distribution is jamming too much in the end, is unbalanced, and may backfire if the skater runs out of steam. A main reason for bonuses on later jumps is because they are harder to do when the skater is tired, thus front loading a program is almost cheating. It's also why the big jumps are done off the top instead of later for the considerable bonuses such jumps would incur. No one has earned a quad bonus as far as I know. They don't even try.

I don't think frontloading is cheating; it's just easier, which is not yet against the rules. I would like the ISU to do some tinkering in order to stop the current pattern of skaters taking a breather, then reeling off jumps as soon as the program hits the halfway mark; I'd rather see a 4-4 in which the jumping passes are well distributed and work with the music. Maybe if they divide the program into thirds or quarters and have a sliding factor for each part? Because as I see it, there's a big difference between a 2A at 2:25 and something like Aliona and Robin's throw 3S to end.

Brian Joubert once landed a quad during the bonus period (official proof). I don't recall him trying it again, though. No idea about others - why wouldn't Kevin Reynolds give it a shot? And I think Fernandez might be able to try it, too; actually, Fernandez needs to try a three quad program, considering he has two relatively stable quads.

 

[Mathman]

It's common to do the 4th jump right at the beginning of the back half of the program, ...

I'll say! At 2011 Worlds 12 0f the top 15 men did exactly that: Chan, Kozuka, Joubert, Brezina, Takahashi, Amodio, Dornbush, Oda, Fernandez, Miner, Verner, and Liebers. They basically waited until the halfway mark, then shot off five jumps more or less in a row.

And women's champ Miki Ando was just as smart as the men, with five jumps in a row staring at the halfway mark.

This kind of micromanaging that the CoP dictates -- you must do exactly what everyone else does or you will lose points -- is one of the criticisms that can be brought against the scoring system.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think it's simply smart planning to do the 4th jump at the top of the second half.

An even distribution of jumps in itself does not make a balanced or good choreography. The bonuses are general and incentive enough for skaters to not front load a program.

 

[Mathman]

I think it's simply smart planning to do the 4th jump at the top of the second half.

That is what is most objectionable about the CoP. It specifies chapter and verse what the smart thing to do is, then rewards skaters for being obedient and punishes them if they stray.

 

[seniorita]

What does it mean frontloading is cheating? Cheating what?The CoP gives you an option: do your jumps as you like but if you do your jumps after the half point take 10% more.
And the difference of froantloading against backloading is two jumps more before the half mark or two jumps more than what the rest 12 men at Worlds 2011 did, I havent seen anyone doing 8 jumps in a row before half mark and then make a cruise until the end.

 

[Violet Bliss]

That is what is most objectionable about the CoP. It specifies chapter and verse what the smart thing to do is, then rewards skaters for being obedient and punishes them if they stray.

It is just a general guideline that top skaters are able to adjust to. It's not something to obey or be punished for "straying". Backload or frontload as you wish, neither is good choreography. Lopsided backloading requires great stamina and ruins choreography. Thus 3-5 split is quite balanced while gaining a slight advantage of an additional bonus amounting to a fraction of a point. I don't see anything wrong or destructive of the sport about it. What Buttercup suggested is even more stringent micromanaging skaters' choreography into cookie cutter pattern.

I remember a late quad by either an American or a Chinese skater but am not even sure if it was under 6.0 or COP. Joubert's late quad as linked by Buttercup was really "going for it" since he seemed to be up against a bunch of laggards. It looked like a poor competition where his late quad was not great and others popped so many jumps, with 2 1A from Weir, 3T off the top from Vener, and 1S as the first jump from 2nd placed Dobrin who also has a 4S and a 3S, none in combination, so the 1S was likely meant for a 4S combo. Joubert won by about 27 points on LP alone, when quads' BV were much lower. So huge wins are not a new phenomenon at all, just more objectionable.

Ahem, I notice the increasing focus and criticism on my calling frontloading cheating, which I did not do. I said it was almost cheating because I knew it was not against any rule, just easier to do if there is no disincentive.

eta. Mathman, one may say 6.0 rewards front loading but it's not the scoring system but the decision by the ISU to officially discourage frontloading which was the smart plan from 6.0. If there were an unwritten rule that frontloading would be penalized under 6.0, skaters would change their layout accordingly too. It's just natural reaction to optimize one's winning chances with every possible advantage under any system. The difference is COP makes open specifications.

 

[Buttercup]

I havent seen anyone doing 8 jumps in a row before half mark and then make a cruise until the end.

At least that would be original and not by the numbers CoP! And I would totally watch someone like Jonathan Cassar doing that and then nothing but steps and spread eagles for half a program.

 

[Bluebonnet]

No one has earned a quad bonus as far as I know. They don't even try.

Brian Joubert once landed a quad during the bonus period (official proof). I don't recall him trying it again, though. No idea about others - why wouldn't Kevin Reynolds give it a shot? And I think Fernandez might be able to try it, too; actually, Fernandez needs to try a three quad program, considering he has two relatively stable quads.

Stephane Lambiel did a quad and a 3F-3T in the second half of his Four Seasons at 2006 Worlds.

 

[seniorita]

Ahem, I notice the increasing focus and criticism on my calling frontloading cheating, which I did not do. I said it was almost cheating because I knew it was not against any rule, just easier to do if there is no disincentive.

I didnt critisize it, I just think cheating or almost cheating is not, because as we say all day here everyone uses the CoP with different strategies to serve them better. If they choose the 5-3 it means either they cant do the 3-5 clean or they think they can compensate with maybe more GOE if they do the jumps when they are not much tired.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Stephane Lambiel did a quad and a 3F-3T in the second half of his Four Seasons at 2006 Worlds.

Yes but he took a big long rest before them, including a sustained standstill artistic expression. I love Lambiel but Chan has raised the bar with non stop footwork and transitions, even into quad jumps. It's hard to win with simple choreography and stalking jumps these days, not that Lambiel's choreography was simple, but there was a trade off for the big jumps during the top half of the program. Anyways, hat off to Lambiel, the great artist with quads and the only two time World Champion under COP. So far.

eta Seniorita, I was referring to frontloading under 6.0, which was pretty standard with no reason not to. Nothing illegal about it or any official cheating. I just meant it was easier compared to someone doing a more even jump layout with no rewards for it.

 

[mskater93]

I remember a late quad by either an American or a Chinese skater but am not even sure if it was under 6.0 or COP.

It was Tim Goebel in 2002. He did a 4S at the 3 minute something mark in his program. He said it was REALLY HARD to pull off (but that was his money jump)

 

[Serious Business]

Morosov loves the backloading strategy, thus two of his students: Miki Ando and Florent Armodio, both stack more jumps in the back half than most other top skaters. Every point counts. Nice work if you can get it! I don't have a problem with that.

However, it this leads to a shoddily choreographed program, that should be penalized in the choreography score. But as we all know, most of the PCS besides skating skills (and often not even that) have little relation to what is actually skated.

 

[Violet Bliss]

It was Tim Goebel in 2002. He did a 4S at the 3 minute something mark in his program. He said it was REALLY HARD to pull off (but that was his money jump)

I figured it would be Goebel but couldn't remember the event. As well, there might have been a Chinese jump specialist from the early days.

Morosov loves the backloading strategy, thus two of his students: Miki Ando and Florent Armodio, both stack more jumps in the back half than most other top skaters. Every point counts. Nice work if you can get it! I don't have a problem with that.

However, it this leads to a shoddily choreographed program, that should be penalized in the choreography score. But as we all know, most of the PCS besides skating skills (and often not even that) have little relation to what is actually skated.

I have no issue with backloading either if the program is well done, which is very difficult to achieve both technically and artistically. Amodio bombed with his poorly designed and executed program.

 

[dorispulaski]

It was Tim Goebel in 2002. He did a 4S at the 3 minute something mark in his program. He said it was REALLY HARD to pull off (but that was his money jump)

Chenjiang Li would have been the Chinese quadster, but he tended to do his quads up front and completely run out of gas in the second half.

Takeshi Honda could do multiple quads, but he often messed them up. I don't remember whether he ever tried the second quad in the 2nd half of the program. There was one really outside performance of his at 4CC's-that would be where to look for it.

Ilia Klimkin could do multiple quads, I don't know whether he did one in the second half.

And then there's Elvis Stojko.