Mao and her ballet training | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Mao and her ballet training

Yu na's argument is ballet is different no?

I think what Joe is trying to say is that while people may be able to learn pretty arm movements... The skaters involved aren't learning real ballet... That ballet in and of itself is very different...
OH and the Polina youtube videos were absolutely gorgeous... WOW>>>:love:

AFAIK, Yuna had a very minimal dance training in general, not just ballet. Such a shame because she seems like a naturally gifted dancer. Her Tango program was the best tango on the ice I've ever seen. With more dance training, she will be even better. And I love Polina:love: She is my second favorite ballerina next to Aurelie Dupont, which most people don't get:p
 
Mao

It is very clear that Mao has had some dance/ballet training. She has line, elegance, posture, and she creates beautiful positions with her upper body. I am very impressed with the beauty of her skating. She is going to be one for the ages in my opinion.
 
AFAIK, Yuna had a very minimal dance training in general, not just ballet. Such a shame because she seems like a naturally gifted dancer. Her Tango program was the best tango on the ice I've ever seen. With more dance training, she will be even better. And I love Polina:love: She is my second favorite ballerina next to Aurelie Dupont, which most people don't get:p

I do think that Yu-na would be better with more dance training and better posture. Mao's posture is to die for...
 
Re: Q. 1 & 2.
I am afraid I don't see anybody making these claims in this thread. I don't understand where these alleged claims are coming from.
There are many instances where fans proclaim that a skater skates as if she were a ballerina, and often enough, does not support that statement. No where in the PCS criteria mentions ballet. It's a Sport which requires some beauty which can be found in folk dancing, tap dancing, Spanish dancing, ballroom dancing, etc yet no one says She must have studied tap dancing to get all that rhythm.

I reiterate my two questions regardless if posters feel they can't answer them.

1. Why is it so important that all ladies MUST skate as you perceive like Ballerinas?

2. Is it not possible to skate like a champion without being ballet-like?


Joe
 
I would expect that the majority of figure skating fans (like the majority of people generally) are not experts in different forms of dance. I think they use "balletic" just to mean, she skates pretty.

IMO the answers to the question are, #1, no, it's not important that skaters skate "like ballerinas."

And #2, yes, it is quite possible for a skater to be a great champion without being "ballet-like." Michelle Kwan, Katarina Witt, Irina Slutskaya, Midori Ito, Shizuka Arakawa, Kristi Yamaguchi, Dorothy Hamill, Peggy Fleming, Carol Heiss -- some of the greatest skaters of all time, and not a ballerina among them. (JMO.)
 
There are many instances where fans proclaim that a skater skates as if she were a ballerina, and often enough, does not support that statement. No where in the PCS criteria mentions ballet. It's a Sport which requires some beauty which can be found in folk dancing, tap dancing, Spanish dancing, ballroom dancing, etc yet no one says She must have studied tap dancing to get all that rhythm.

I reiterate my two questions regardless if posters feel they can't answer them.

1. Why is it so important that all ladies MUST skate as you perceive like Ballerinas?

2. Is it not possible to skate like a champion without being ballet-like?


Joe

Why don't you open a new thread or your own personal blog to specifically address your own concern and pursue your own arguments to your heart content if you consider your opinion so important?

I am not judging your opinion as invalid or unimportant. But I don't think that the use of term or example of "ballet" is politically incorrect to be persistently attacked or problematized like this. In your questions, you have two absolute statements that you wish to refute. But I don't understand why you think that people think that way. You observe, "fans proclaim that a skater skates as if she were a ballerina". That's totally different from your absolute statement, "all ladies MUST skate as you perceive like Ballerinas." That sounds quite extreme. Further, please let me remind you again that nobody in this thread has even metioned what you want to refute. How much interpretation on your part may be contribution to your perceptions of others' opinions? I don't think this kind of discussion either productive or healthy.

This is a thread for Mao's ballet training. My answer to the topic of this thread is that I see off ice ballet training in Mao's skating that has helped her posture, arms, and connection with the music. I don't see any hiphop or Japanese dancing background in her skating at all. I am also glad that she is skating to classical music that matches her style.
 
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1. Why is it so important that all ladies MUST skate as you perceive like Ballerinas?

2. Is it not possible to skate like a champion without being ballet-like?[/I]

Joe


1. I don't think that being like "ballerina" is important. More importantly, I don't think it's possible. A skater can definitely benefit from doing ballet, but they are no ballerinas.

2. Of course, it is possible. See #1. I have yet to see a ballerina on skates. There were many skaters with beautiful lines, ie Mao, but they are no where near being ballerina-like.
 
I am not judging your opinion as invalid or unimportant. But I don't think that the use of term or example of "ballet" is politically incorrect to be persistently attacked or problematized like this. In your questions, you have two absolute statements that you wish to refute. But I don't understand why you think that people think that way. You observe, "fans proclaim that a skater skates as if she were a ballerina". That's totally different from your absolute statement, "all ladies MUST skate as you perceive like Ballerinas." That sounds quite extreme. Further, please let me remind you again that nobody in this thread has even metioned what you want to refute. How much interpretation on your part may be contribution to your perceptions of others' opinions? I don't think this kind of discussion either productive or healthy.

This is a thread for Mao's ballet training. My answer to the topic of this thread is that I see off ice ballet training in Mao's skating that has helped her posture, arms, and connection with the music. I don't see any hiphop or Japanese dancing background in her skating at all. I am also glad that she is skating to classical music that matches her style.


I don't think that <b>Joesitz</b> is making any kind of absolute statement. This thread asked about Mao & her ballet training because it seems like quite a lot of people seem to think that Mao is a ballerina on ice. Quite a few posters jumped in on this thread & other threads to mention that she took ballet when she little & is currently taking lessons again. Many posters gush about Mao's ballet like quality, so <b>Joesitz</b> asked why it was so important to some people.

<b>Mathman</b> made a great point that general fans use the term "balletic" when they mean to say "pretty". I don't do ballet but my very close friend is a danseur who has been doing ballet since he was 8, & still see him struggle from time to time after dancing for 10 years. I would hate to think that several months of ballet training will transform Mao to a different skater.

I absolutely love Mao's basic skating & her flow on the ice. I think Yu-Na comes close, but Mao's flow and posture is the best out there at the moment. Unfortunately, I don't see a huge improvement in her arm movement this year from last year. Her speed and flow on the ice helps her upper body to look much more elegant than they really are. Oh, her current LP has a lot of arm flailing as well, so it probably makes her arms more elegant than last year.

My favorite program even now is Mao's SP from last year. She's no ballerina, but boy did she skate beautifully. Do I think that ballet has helped Mao? No. Mao's always have beautiful line & posture, so I don't much improvement on that department. She could probably learn to connect with her music more, which I absolutely don't see this year. Well, maybe during the last 1.5 minutes of her LP...:cool:
 
I have a question, too.

When skaters and other athletes take ballet lessons for cross-training purposes, what exactly does that consist of? Do they learn the same same steps, positions, lifts, etc., as a person would who is seriously hopeful of one day performing on stage? Or is it more like stretching and strength/flexibility exercises?

Do you start right off doing your beginning exercises to music, or is that added later?
 
AFAIK, Yuna had a very minimal dance training in general, not just ballet. Such a shame because she seems like a naturally gifted dancer. Her Tango program was the best tango on the ice I've ever seen. With more dance training, she will be even better. And I love Polina:love: She is my second favorite ballerina next to Aurelie Dupont, which most people don't get:p


With regards to Yu Na, her movement is 100% natural. Even when Mister choreographer tells her to do "this", she makes it look natural because she was born with the innate ability. She is naturally graceful and lyrical in her movements. HOWEVER, imagine what she could do with some formal dance training! It can only enhance her natural ability. Her coaches obviously thought it was a good idea, too, since according to someone's post here she is now taking ballet. Even if someone has innate ability like Yu Na does, you put them in a ballet class and you notice huge problems with alignment because they never were taught these things. Specific positions or muscle movements were never isolated because ice skating training does not teach you those things. Another thing, too, is the person appears very uncoordinated in a dance setting because ice skating does not train the brain in the same way. Basically, what I'm saying is that even with someone with innate ability like Yu Na can still benefit from dance training. It doesn't have to be ballet necessarily, but that's a good place to start because it is so foundational.
 
I have a question, too.

When skaters and other athletes take ballet lessons for cross-training purposes, what exactly does that consist of? Do they learn the same same steps, positions, lifts, etc., as a person would who is seriously hopeful of one day performing on stage? Or is it more like stretching and strength/flexibility exercises?

Do you start right off doing your beginning exercises to music, or is that added later?


Basically, to answer your question it involves doing exercises at the barre and then centre exercises. What I find to be a problem with ballet training is that at the community centre the teacher does not correct you. The stretching is pretty much a joke because there basically is none. Of course, I think the community centre is recreational and I think the people who go there just want some exercise and not much more. I think learning at a community centre is a waste of time and money.
 
I have a question, too.

When skaters and other athletes take ballet lessons for cross-training purposes, what exactly does that consist of? Do they learn the same same steps, positions, lifts, etc., as a person would who is seriously hopeful of one day performing on stage? Or is it more like stretching and strength/flexibility exercises?

Do you start right off doing your beginning exercises to music, or is that added later?

I don't know. I myself did ballet for ballet's sake, but it certainly helped my FS as well. My ballet background also helped me with other dances, such as jazz, ballroom dancing etc.

In Mao's case, she said in this article <http://www.skatetoday.com/articles0405/031205-1.htm> that she practiced classical ballet between 3 to 9. So it's 6 years of training. She says that she did some recitals. I had seen pictures of little Mao and Mai with all the heavy makeup and great costumes prepared for such recitals.

The article also says, "Asada skates for three hours a day every day on ice and participates in about an hour and a half of off ice training every day, including ballet, conditioning and weights." This is when she was 14. I suppose that this ballet session would be just as complementary to FS. Yet, if you do it everyday, I think that it would still help your posture and positions; especially, in her case, she had former training in classical ballet for 6 years.

Then now, it's been reported that she resumed ballet during the off season and has been practicing it hard. If I recall correctly, one of the major purposes seems to improve the upper body movements. I don't know what they are doing in their practices. But since both Mao and Mai had already practiced classical ballet for a long time, I suppose that they can do various things both at the barre and at the center.

Additionally, it seems that TT brings Mao (and Mai?) to theaters to see ballet performances.

ETA: To answer Mathman's last question, I think that even if you are a very beginner, you would have some music at a slower tempo. The music tempo can be adjusted. You can also count double.

I think one of the benefits of these off ice dance training is that you can always have the music to dance to, which is often difficult on ice. I think that dance training with music helps you hits the beat more correctly, which I think Mao is really good at.
 
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With regards to Yu Na, her movement is 100% natural. Even when Mister choreographer tells her to do "this", she makes it look natural because she was born with the innate ability. She is naturally graceful and lyrical in her movements. HOWEVER, imagine what she could do with some formal dance training! It can only enhance her natural ability. Her coaches obviously thought it was a good idea, too, since according to someone's post here she is now taking ballet. Even if someone has innate ability like Yu Na does, you put them in a ballet class and you notice huge problems with alignment because they never were taught these things. Specific positions or muscle movements were never isolated because ice skating training does not teach you those things. Another thing, too, is the person appears very uncoordinated in a dance setting because ice skating does not train the brain in the same way. Basically, what I'm saying is that even with someone with innate ability like Yu Na can still benefit from dance training. It doesn't have to be ballet necessarily, but that's a good place to start because it is so foundational.

I also think that Yu-Na has natural talent. I think the reason why she didn't take ballet lessons is because the family couldn't afford it as part of her training, so it wasn't their priority. Dance lessons, especially ballet lessons, in Korea are quite expensive. Yu-Na didn't get much financial support from the federation until she started winning her Jr. competitions. Yu-Na also made a comment that she was very close to quitting before 2005. Yes, I think Yu-Na will only get better with formal ballet classes.
 
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I also think that Yu-Na has natural talent. I think the reason why she didn't take ballet lessons is because the family couldn't afford it as part of her training, so it wasn't their priority. Dance lessons, especially ballet lessons, in Korea are quite expensive. Yu-Na didn't get much financial support from the federation until she started winning her Jr. competitions. Yu-Na also made a comment that she was very close to quitting before 2005. Yes, I think Yu-Na will only get better why formal ballet classes.

I didn't know that financial reasons were involved in Yuna's not taking dance lessons before. I agree that she seems to be naturally talented in interpreting and connecting to music, which I believe really a rare case. But I feel that it's not necessarily something that just comes out and flows naturally without thinking or trying on her part. I do think that Yuna really cares about the performance aspect of FS; that is, how she presents herself and how she tells the story.
It is really nice to hear someone saying that she started taking ballet lessons, which would help her lines and positions.
 
I didn't know that financial reasons were involved in Yuna's not taking dance lessons before. I agree that she seems to be naturally talented in interpreting and connecting to music, which I believe really a rare case. But I feel that it's not necessarily something that just comes out and flows naturally without thinking or trying on her part. I do think that Yuna really cares about the performance aspect of FS; that is, how she presents herself and how she tells the story.
It is really nice to hear someone saying that she started taking ballet lessons, which would help her lines and positions.

I think you brought up a good point and that is that she CARES about the performance aspect. I think most skaters be they elite or starskate stream simply don't care to put the time and attention to details. I mean, of course, the technical must be there, too. I think it's the attention to details that make the difference between a so-so skater who can do the jumps and a superior skater who can also do the jumps. I also wonder whether most coaches are even qualified to do the detailing as most coaches I don't think have any clue about dance.
 
I think that there are coaches who do care about dance as well as those who don't. At the same time, I feel it's kind of difficult a lot of times to focus on the presentation aspect of skating during the coaching sessions when the rink is crowded. It takes space and music to practice dance. To reconcile with this difficulty, my coach used to have me do major choreos piece by piece with no music.


I am with Ms.Anthrope about the appreciation of Mao's Chopin Nocturne. It's really a beautiful program. She doesn't have a whole lots of choreos, but it has such sophisticated simplicity that underscores her polished line, posture, and graceful arm movements. The babypink costume was so fancy and elegant, too. This calm, peaceful performance gives me a deep sense of relaxation and happiness.

My favorite performance of this program was that in Skate America 2006. I feel that all the choreos went so well with every note of music in her Skate America performance, although perhaps she did better at her spins in the latter half of the season. I really loved the slow, airy ending pose as well as her calm, gentle smiles at the Skate America 2006.
 
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I think that there are coaches who do care about dance as well as those who don't. At the same time, I feel it's kind of difficult a lot of times to focus on the presentation aspect of skating during the coaching sessions when the rink is crowded. It takes space and music to practice dance. To reconcile with this difficulty, my coach used to have me do major choreos piece by piece with no music.


I am with Ms.Anthrope about the appreciation of Mao's Chopin Nocturne. It's really a beautiful program. She doesn't have a whole lots of choreos, but it has such sophisticated simplicity that underscores her polished line, posture, and graceful arm movements. The babypink costume was so fancy and elegant, too. This calm, peaceful performance gives me a deep sense of relaxation and happiness.

My favorite performance of this program was that in Skate America 2006. I feel that all the choreos went so well with every note of music in her Skate America performance, although perhaps she did better at her spins in the latter half of the season. I really loved the slow, airy ending pose as well as her calm, gentle smiles at the Skate America 2006.


Wasn't that Chopin Nocturne an absolute masterpiece in her perfomance execution?! Totally agree with your comments. I think there is something to be said about simplicity. A simple movement can in itself be very sophisticated. It's really about the quality of movement than the complexity.
 
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