Mao Asada's jumps -- discussion

[mskater93]

Why do we continue to have this discussion? Go look at ANY skater who has been considered a technical genius (Browning, Goebel, Yagudin, Plushenko, Slutskaya, Hughes, Kwan in the early years, Lu, etc) and find one where there is NO pre-rotation on the ice or toe pick. You cannot generate angular momentum - it's a simple matter of physics - unless you start to rotate on the ice.

 

[antmanb]

If the skater can not make 3 revolutions in the air then call it whatever he does make in the air. Why give it credit for the attempt?

Because the body does do three revolutions? The body usually stays square until the pre-rotation has started to happen and when the check is released the skater is up the air. Every skater will have heard their coach shouting at them to not jump around, rather jump up first then rotate (that's all about the body keeping square and not killing the height and jump by pre-rotating the body). If you are expecting three full air turns of the feet then it's clear that you don't understand the mechanics of jumping on the ice. I dare say no-one has ever accomplished that - no-one at all.

Taking off on an edge and landing on a spot on a line with that takeoff should produce a genuine 3 revolutions jump. It would be easier if skaters took off on the flat.

I suppose it might if they did three turns with their feet from take off, but your body would rotate more than the three turns and have a tendancy to over-rotate. Furthermore i don't think it would look so great as you wouldn't be entering and exiting on the same curve of the edges you create on the way into the jump. If the jumps all took off on the flat then what would happen to your precious definitions?

Ant

 

[gourry]

Go look at ANY skater who has been considered a technical genius (Browning, Goebel, Yagudin, Plushenko, Slutskaya, Hughes, Kwan in the early years, Lu, etc) and find one where there is NO pre-rotation on the ice or toe pick. You cannot generate angular momentum - it's a simple matter of physics - unless you start to rotate on the ice.

Well, I didn't try to look at the skaters you mentioned, but I can easily think of one example: Miki Ando's lutz.
I remember this specific one for the following reason. Last season, there was a Japanese broadcasting about wrong edge and they used Miki's lutz clip as proper take off and at that time I was really impressed because her toepick was squeaky clean and how to say, instant, and there was almost no prerotation. She just sprang into air.
There is another name came to my mind but I won't name it because it will surely bring catfight.
If you try to look for, there could be many more.

But since many people say some degree of prerotation is inevitable and since there are some skaters who don't prerotate as much as others, I just feel... well...
How about this? If 1/2 prerotation and 1/4 underrotation is acceptable, that means 2 and 1/4 air rotation is enough to be called a triple. Then, why not just count the 2 and 1/4 air rotation to ratify a triple. If a skater has only 1/4 prerotation, then allow the skater 1/2 underrotation to have a ratiried triple! This skater just did 2 and 1/4 rotation just like others!
Is this make any sense?

 

[cosmos]

Why do we continue to have this discussion? Go look at ANY skater who has been considered a technical genius (Browning, Goebel, Yagudin, Plushenko, Slutskaya, Hughes, Kwan in the early years, Lu, etc) and find one where there is NO pre-rotation on the ice or toe pick. You cannot generate angular momentum - it's a simple matter of physics - unless you start to rotate on the ice.

You have to get angular momentum within 1/4 turn, according to the rule book.

That being said, Mao's (2 or 3)axel always looks to me prerotated. (This is Mao's jump discussion thread). Her blades already 1/2 turn rotated before take-off. She sees backward not forward when take-off. I remember Dick Button called it BACKWARD EDGE in 2008 Worlds.

 

[Mathman]

You have to get angular momentum within 1/4 turn, according to the rule book.

What I think the rule book says is that you are allowed only 1/4 turn underrotation on the landing.

As for pre-rotation on the take-off, the only rule is

A clear forward take-off other than an Axel would be considered a cheated jump.

The rules go on to say that this is applicable mainly to the toe-loop jump and must be clear in real time without video replay. So this says that up to almost 1/2 turn on take-off is OK (especially, for instance, on a loop), together with up to a quarter turn on landing.

Here is the ISU document, titled appropriately "First Aid for Technical Controllers" Scroll down to page 49 for the two rules, one for landings and a separate one for take-offs.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-185270-202492-125742-0-file,00.pdf

BTW, this is a cool document that I just discovered on the ISU web site. It has all kinds of interesting details in terms of instruction to technical specialist in interpreting the rules.

 

[icestar]

pre-rotation

It has always been acceptable and actually good technique to pre-rotate 1/2 turn on the backward to forward taking off jumps and 1/4 turn on the axel. Coaches might not think they are teaching it and skaters might not think they are doing it but it is how the best jumpers in the world do there jumps. With the new slow motion replays the home audience gets to actually see what is going on.
Here is a link to Trevor Laak's jump manual, it explains it well.

http://www.skatingjumpsecrets.com/download/jump_manual.pdf

http://www.skatingjumpsecrets.com/download/jump_manual.pdf

I also remember seeing an article in a skating magazine explaining how some of the best "clean" quad toes are only 3.1 rotations in the air. Over 180 degrees is done on the take-off. Thats just the way its done, sorry to the skating fans who thought it was 4.

 

[feraina]

That being said, Mao's (2 or 3)axel always looks to me prerotated. (This is Mao's jump discussion thread). Her blades already 1/2 turn rotated before take-off. She sees backward not forward when take-off. I remember Dick Button called it BACKWARD EDGE in 2008 Worlds.

It is quite noticeably pre-rotated, and it's not pre-rotation on the toepick but on the edge. In fact, she slid off on a backward edge at Worlds for this reason -- she pre-rotated a bit more than usual in terms of angle, and she was on an edge, so she slid off that edge and could never take off.

Yukari's 3A is also noticeably pre-rotated. Maybe women should just not attempt 3A's but just concentrate on getting five beautiful basic triples, and a nice high 2A. For example, I like Joannie's high 2A (especially at SC) better than an under-rotated 3A. And I say this as a bigger fan of Mao and Yukari than Joannie.

 

[yunaddiction]

Asada MAO'S Jump can be summed up in substance as follows:
1. Magical Prerotaion with the turn more than 1/2.
2. Awful Underotation.
3. Offensive Two-footed landing.
4. Silly Flutz.

No more else to talk about here!

Except the sarcasm, I agree with his opinion.

Then why is Mao trying to learn jumps new other than 3A?
I am carefully thinking that she is forced to.
Maybe because more advantage to 5 triple jumps is expected?
Or maybe because of the other reason?

Anyway It should be a great pressure to her if she has to cure all of the problems + two 3A before Olympic.
If she can make it, she is simply invincible. no questions.

I think Miki made a better decision since she started one season earlier.

 

[steyn]

It has always been acceptable and actually good technique to pre-rotate 1/2 turn on the backward to forward taking off jumps and 1/4 turn on the axel. Coaches might not think they are teaching it and skaters might not think they are doing it but it is how the best jumpers in the world do there jumps. With the new slow motion replays the home audience gets to actually see what is going on.
Here is a link to Trevor Laak's jump manual, it explains it well.

http://www.skatingjumpsecrets.com/download/jump_manual.pdf

http://www.skatingjumpsecrets.com/download/jump_manual.pdf

I also remember seeing an article in a skating magazine explaining how some of the best "clean" quad toes are only 3.1 rotations in the air. Over 180 degrees is done on the take-off. Thats just the way its done, sorry to the skating fans who thought it was 4.

The manual basically claims

1. The female jumping technique (1/2 prerotation) is more "efficient" than the male technique (almost no or much-less-than-1/2 prerotation). Although there are some talented female skaters who use the male technique, that is not important. Let's just use more efficient method. Even male skaters are encouraged to use this 1/2-prerotation method.

2. For the Axel, 1/2 prerotation is a "poor" technique. So don't use it if possible.

Well, I admit that I am a newbie in figure skating but I don't find any rationale here. I understand the manual is a "practical" guide to get maximum points with minimal efforts under the current situation, but I don't think this kind of definition of jumps should be an official one.

I would call the female technique as cheated (instead of efficient) or poor one. I think this method should be penalized with negative GOE just as in Axel case. Or, at least, female skaters using male technique should be rewarded with high GOE rather than discouraging them. (But apparantly this manual doesn't think so.)

 

[Mathman]

^ Actually, that's an interesting point -- the difference between "male jump technique" and "female jump technique." I hadn't thought about it that way before, but maybe it makes some sense.

Maybe a man's straight-up-and-down body allows him to leap straight into the air generating torque with his upper body, while a lady uses a "curvier" technique of beginning the rotation on the ice.

 

[steyn]

^ Actually, that's an interesting point -- the difference between "male jump technique" and "female jump technique." I hadn't thought about it that way before, but maybe it makes some sense.

Maybe a man's straight-up-and-down body allows him to leap straight into the air generating torque with his upper body, while a lady uses a "curvier" technique of beginning the rotation on the ice.

Well I think physical shape of the body is not really an issue here because male technique is more difficult than female technique even to male skaters. Moreover I don't find any reason to differentiate Axel and call 1/2-prerotated Axel "poor" while the others "efficient."

I think there are simply two techniques: traditional orthodox one and poor cheated one. The manual advocates the latter just because it is not penalized these days. I strongly disagree with this kind of attitude.

 

[ChrisH]

It is quite noticeably pre-rotated, and it's not pre-rotation on the toepick but on the edge. In fact, she slid off on a backward edge at Worlds for this reason -- she pre-rotated a bit more than usual in terms of angle, and she was on an edge, so she slid off that edge and could never take off.

Yukari's 3A is also noticeably pre-rotated. Maybe women should just not attempt 3A's but just concentrate on getting five beautiful basic triples, and a nice high 2A. For example, I like Joannie's high 2A (especially at SC) better than an under-rotated 3A. And I say this as a bigger fan of Mao and Yukari than Joannie.

You're right about Nakano, but I could not disagree more about Asada. See the replay at 5:45 in this video. Her blade is no more than 45 degrees from forward. Like I've said before, I think she slid off because she was not pre-rotated enough!

From what I've seen, Asada's 2A technique is the best and not coincidently she is the only lady with a reliable 3A.

In general, the 2A is by far the least pre-rotated jump that the ladies perform. The pre-rotation is usually less than 1/4 turn. The pre-rotation may be more noticeable to some because half of it is done with the blade flat (brief but easy to see) and the other half as the skater is rising to the toe pick (brief and imperceptible) while with other jumps almost all of the pre-rotation is done as the skater rises to the toe pick (long but only noticeable if your looking for it). Skaters always do that two arms swinging forward-up motion for the axel jump takeoff. They jump up first and then get into their rotation position. That is even more clear in delayed axel jumps. That's why there is less pre-rotation in axel jumps. Of course it doesn't hurt that the elite ladies have little trouble completing the rotations for the 2A, so they don't need to cheat the takeoff.

Kim fans should be more respectful of Asada. While Kim's 3Lz may be a 1/4 turn more rotated in the air than Asada's 3Lz(e), Asada's 3A is 1/2 a turn more rotated in the air (and usually higher) than Kim's 3Lz.

 

[cosmos]

You're right about Nakano, but I could not disagree more about Asada. See the replay at 5:45 in this video. Her blade is no more than 45 degrees from forward. Like I've said before, I think she slid off because she was not pre-rotated enough!

No, I don't see it. See this at 5:08

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=pM1Ad6kMcLI

 

[Love_Skate]

Please compare the 2As of three ladies in the most recent competitions in slow-motion. To say the least, Mao's 2A is not the least pre-rotated.

Mao Asada at 5:08. Isn't it prerotated more than 1/4 turn?
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=5LwYsXeoJ04

Joannie Rochette at 3:52
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5NXemwQLFI

Yuna Kim at 6:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fb28Ak2Fyc

 

[HCOSurfer]

Please compare the 2As of three ladies in the most recent competitions in slow-motion. To say the least, Mao's 2A is not the least pre-rotated.

Mao Asada at 5:08. Isn't it prerotated more than 1/4 turn?
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=5LwYsXeoJ04

Joannie Rochette at 3:52
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5NXemwQLFI

Yuna Kim at 6:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fb28Ak2Fyc

To be honest, it looked like every single one of those 2A were at least 1/4 pre-rotated, even Yuna's. Go look at Evan Lysacek's 3A and Caroline Zhang's 2A and then we'll talk about pre-rotated axel jumps.

 

[ChrisH]

No, I don't see it. See this at 5:08

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=pM1Ad6kMcLI

The pre-rotation is little more than 1/4 a turn. Keep in mind that she is jumping toward the camera significantly. She wasn't fully rotated on the landing and so two-footed. Asada still did about 3 full rotations in the air which is a 1/4 more than Kim does on her best 3Lz/3F(!) and 1/2 turn more than the downgraded one at CoC.

Please compare the 2As of three ladies in the most recent competitions in slow-motion. To say the least, Mao's 2A is not the least pre-rotated.

Partly true, but it appears that Asada is partly jumping away from the camera. You can either say she was 3/8 of turn pre-rotated and over-rotated on the landing or what I believe, which she was about 1/4 turn pre-rotated and well rotated on the landing. Anyway, some of Asada's 2As from 4CC and Worlds last season were better. I recall one of those being only 1/8 of a turn pre-rotated. She obviously wasn't at her best at TEB.
Edit: the video I linked to last at the 4:14 was better, but still not her best.


Both of the replays of Asada's axels are examples of why one should be careful when looking at side angles of jumps. It's easy to assume that the jump plane is perpendicular to the camera angle when it isn't. The best that you can do with side angles is look at the take-off point and the landing point and guess at the jump angle. Those things are also subject to bias.

 

[CalebsMom]

From what I've seen, Asada's 2A technique is the best and not coincidently she is the only lady with a reliable 3A.

Kim fans should be more respectful of Asada. While Kim's 3Lz may be a 1/4 turn more rotated in the air than Asada's 3Lz(e), Asada's 3A is 1/2 a turn more rotated in the air (and usually higher) than Kim's 3Lz.

Please compare the 2As of three ladies in the most recent competitions in slow-motion. To say the least, Mao's 2A is not the least pre-rotated.

Mao Asada at 5:08. Isn't it prerotated more than 1/4 turn?
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=5LwYsXeoJ04

Joannie Rochette at 3:52
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5NXemwQLFI

Yuna Kim at 6:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fb28Ak2Fyc

Love Skate, I could too see that Mao's 2A is as good as 1/2 pre-rotated, which makes the forward take-off jump backward. I still remember Dick Button's comment how dangerous it would be if you take off backward on any Axel jumps when Mao fell big on her 3A at the 2008 Worlds. I don't know if it was your intention to arrange the youtube links in the order of the most pre-rotated jump to the least, but it turned out to be that way.

And ChristH, I couldn't disagree more with you. Mao' 2A technique is not the best and not coincidently she is not the only lady with a reliable 3A.

 

[steyn]

Kim fans should be more respectful of Asada. While Kim's 3Lz may be a 1/4 turn more rotated in the air than Asada's 3Lz(e), Asada's 3A is 1/2 a turn more rotated in the air (and usually higher) than Kim's 3Lz.

I fully respect Asada's 3A but I don't really understand why you are trying to compare Axel and Lutz. It's like comparing apple and orange.

There are just two completely different items. Asada can jump 3A while Kim cannot, so Asada is (infinitely) better as far as 3A is concerned. On the other hand, Kim's 3Lz is (much) better than Asada's because she rotates more in the air and has the correct edge. It makes utterly no sense to compare the number of rotations of 3A and 3Lz because you are not supposed to land 3Lz in the forward direction.

 

[Love_Skate]

3As of Mao Asada

After seeing some arguing about the reliability of her 3A in this thread, I got curious about the fact and did some research with 12 records of her 3A at all her senior competitions. It was not bad for spending my spare time. The latest competition was not considered since the base point were different from the previous ones. But it would not be so different even if it was considered.
With the result, actually I am a little bit shocked with the fact that her average score of intended 3As is only 4.39. Even though the base value was increased to 8.2, the penalty points got increased, too. So the average still holds for the next competitions. 4.39 is a score less than 2A with +1 GOE which she can easily get. She succeeded it only twice out of 11 attempts. Success means no -GOE. Interestingly, there were no succeeded 3A in 2006 and 2007. In 2007 Skate Canada, she seemed replace 3A with 2A from the beginning. It is not considered in the result.
With this fact, I can say that she do 3A but it is far from reliable. Don't get me wrong, I respect her doing 3A that very few ladies have done and believe she might improve the consistency.

Following are 12 records of her senior competition:
I listed youtube link, time stamp at slo-mo 3A, and extent of pre-rotation I see.

1. 2005 CoC lp: 3A (slo-mo N/A) UR, two footed, 1.76
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7iCeIs0rjg

2. 2005 TEB lp: 4:53 3A (>1/4 PR) two-footed, 7.10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVedTmSzWwE

3. 2005 GPF lp: 6:25 3A (>1/4 PR) success, 7.90
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84MSxpxO7CE

4. 2006 skate america lp: 5:31 3A (<1/4 PR) popped, 1.10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP5oCLcigKo

5. 2006 NHK lp: 4:56 3A (=1/4 PR) stepped out, 5.70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OYs7gOGyCE

6. 2006 GPF lp: 3A (slo-mo N/A) UR, fall, 1.20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqXf5D4ie48

7. 2007 Worlds lp: 5:50 3A (<1/4 PR) two footed, 6.50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ8LXKlFjUI

8. 2007 Skate Canada lp: no 3A (replaced with 2A), N/A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvNGe1xoqgk

9. 2007 TEB lp: 4:50 3A (<=1/4 PR) UR, two footed, fall, 1.00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wlc5cp2J-g

10. 2007 GPF lp: 6:28 3A (=1/4 PR) two footed, 6.70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_7A4rRacUM

11. 2008 4CC lp: 5:56 3A (=1/4 PR) success, 9.36
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f77a2eMaQWs

12. 2008 Worlds lp: 5:43 3A (slid off) fall, 0.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiUPdwYJjAc

 

[Bennett]

The practice videos during off season and pre-competitions often show her 3As that look just so easy. I do not know if they are not showing the failed attempts though. But it is really interesting she has succeeded so infrequently in comps.