Mary Beth Marley updates

[GF2445]

*TSL This and That 8/4 about 22 and a half minutes in

Mary Beth’s statement regarding Lindsay Davis & Rockne Brubaker’s 2013-2014 long program:

“Honestly, heartbroken is an understatement. It hurt more than I could ever have imagined. I loved that program. I studied, researched and watched that old French movie every day. I loved it to death. The choreography was very similar and well let’s just say that I thought he would have respected the fact that it was our program. Well, I can’t control what he does, but I have lost lots of respect for him. I thought he respected our partnership more than that.”

 

[chuckm]

Mary Beth walked away from that partnership. She didn't consider how Rockne felt about being left partnerless at the beginning of last season.

It makes perfect sense for Rockne to use that music this season, with his new partner. He can concentrate more on working the partner moves rather than on having to develop a whole new choreography to different music, and it certainly makes sense from a financial standpoint.

I'm sorry if she has lost respect for Rockne, but that's her personal issue.

However, if she has thoughts about returning to pairs skating, she may find that prospective partners might be a bit uncertain about her.

 

[aftertherain]

Mary Beth walked away from that partnership. She didn't consider how Rockne felt about being left partnerless at the beginning of last season.

They would have had a discussion about it prior to the dissolution, I would imagine.

And she walked away from that partnership with good reason.

 

[R.D.]

TBH, we've only gotten one side of the story of the end of M/B - hers. Someone (TSL?) needs to get Brubaker's perspective on things (and his new partnership as well).

 

[chuckm]

Rockne must have been shocked at Mary Beth's decision to leave the partnership. This was the second time he had a teenage partner walk away, and this last one couldn't have come at a worse time. I'm sure Mary Beth explained why she was leaving, but that couldn't have made Rockne feel any better.

It's just too bad that she hadn't left right at the end of the previous season. Rockne would have had a shot at getting Davis right then, before she teamed with Mark Ladwig, and they would have been able to get in a full season of competition before the Olympic season. And she wouldn't have been "hurt" at Rockne using music she wouldn't even have heard.

 

[ManyCairns]

I haven't studied the ins and outs of the situation, but really, why would she expect him not to use the program? When she frankly left him in the lurch, however understandable her decision is (and it is very understandable)?

I truly wonder if I am missing something here -- She left him, he's getting rather older and desperate for a partner, and he hasn't said anything negative about her, has he? But according to her, he was not supposed to make the best of things and salvage whatever he could to move forward quickly, even if it meant re-using the program? Chuckm said it better, but there are a whole host of practical reasons to re-use the program.

Would an actress with the lead in a movie in production, who chose to leave the film herself for whatever legitimate reasons, still expect the film just to never get made because how dare they re-cast the role? Did MBM have a hand in the choreo or something that makes it her work beyond being Rockne's former partner?

I'm floored she feels she is entitled to be hurt over the situation, at least as it appears. I could completely understand her expressing how painful it might be to see someone else doing the routine, in a non-blaming way at just being sad about how things turned out, but to say she has "lost respect" for Rockne doesn't seem justified.

 

[Robeye]

I haven't studied the ins and outs of the situation, but really, why would she expect him not to use the program? When she frankly left him in the lurch, however understandable her decision is (and it is very understandable)?

I truly wonder if I am missing something here -- She left him, he's getting rather older and desperate for a partner, and he hasn't said anything negative about her, has he? But according to her, he was not supposed to make the best of things and salvage whatever he could to move forward quickly, even if it meant re-using the program? Chuckm said it better, but there are a whole host of practical reasons to re-use the program.

Would an actress with the lead in a movie in production, who chose to leave the film herself for whatever legitimate reasons, still expect the film just to never get made because how dare they re-cast the role? Did MBM have a hand in the choreo or something that makes it her work beyond being Rockne's former partner?

I'm floored she feels she is entitled to be hurt over the situation, at least as it appears. I could completely understand her expressing how painful it might be to see someone else doing the routine, in a non-blaming way at just being sad about how things turned out, but to say she has "lost respect" for Rockne doesn't seem justified.

This seems to me a very fair assessment, unless, as you say, I am missing some unknown but critical piece to this story.

 

[ice coverage]

he hasn't said anything negative about her, has he?

I'm throwing caution to the winds and jumping into this discussion without getting thoroughly "read in."

FWIW, the quote below from Brubaker -- referring to his partnership with Davis -- is from IN's Aug 1 article.

They are developing a solid friendship off the ice as well.
"We're two adults training together for a common goal, which is nice," Brubaker said. "I feel we're ahead of schedule for the year, which gives me confidence."​

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130801&content_id=55503190&vkey=ice_news​

What raised my eyebrows: "We're two adults ..."
I don't know whether Brubaker wanted to imply in a snarky way that Marley was an immature child. I hope not.
Even if his comment was intended to be a neutral indirect reference to Marley's chronological age, it still rubs me the wrong way. If he had concerns about her age, he should not have teamed up with her in the first place.

 

[chuckm]

Let's face it: Rockne's last two TEENAGE partners have abruptly quit the partnership. I am GLAD he has at last found an adult partner who has enough confidence in herself to stay the course.

 

[dorispulaski]

The key & missing piece on resuing the M&B choreography for the D&B team would be to my mind, whether one or both of the M&B team members paid the choreographer. If Rockne paid the choreographer, I have no problem with him using the output. If Mary Beth paid for it, and Rockne using it, not so much. If so, he should have at least asked if she minded.

 

[conga]

The key & missing piece on re-using the M&B choreography for the D&B team would be to my mind, whether one or both of the M&B team members paid the choreographer. If Rockne paid the choreographer, I have no problem with him using the output. If Mary Beth paid for it, and Rockne using it, not so much. If so, he should have at least asked if she minded.

^^^this
I am a Rockne fan and one of those people who were upset when Mary Beth left him in a lurch, but also believed that there had to have been a very good reason. Now, we know (and yes, I can forgive her the timing because who am I to judge when someone hits the wall because things have gotten so bad and drastic measures must be taken?). Yet, I was very surprised that Rockne would be using the same program with a new partner and just assumed that some type of financial arrangements between them had been made. It is true that no one actually "owns" a program, but it is highly unlikely that the choreography and music editing were paid for by anyone other than Mary Beth and Rockne and we are talking quite a bit of money. Though using the program was the most expeditious route and, surprisingly, the program was also determined to be one that worked with interchangeable partners, I am having a hard time not finding this a bit unusual and distasteful from the entire D/B team. :disapp:

I recall being disappointed about not being able to see Samuelson and Bates' American in Paris Free Dance when they split and wondering whether, because of time constraints, Bates and his team would have the nerve to try to use it with his new partner (Chock). I recognize that the situation is different because he is the one that ended the partnership, but perhaps Samuelson was asked permission and she said :no:

 

[clairecloutier]

Let's face it: Rockne's last two TEENAGE partners have abruptly quit the partnership. I am GLAD he has at last found an adult partner who has enough confidence in herself to stay the course.

Rockne chose to partner with two teenage girls. No one forced this on him. Keauna was just 14 when they started, Mary Beth barely 15. He had to have known the risks. In the event, it worked out badly in both cases. Obviously, he's not going to be happy about it. But once again, it was his decision to take that risk, and not once but twice. As to Davis's ability to "stay the course," we shall see. Fact: Rockne is her fourth partner in the last 5 years. I would hardly conclude from this that she's committed to "staying the course." Now granted, Rockne is her best partner so far, and also both of them are running low on time and options, so it's more likely their partnership may last, but her track record is certainly no strong indicator.

If Rockne paid the choreographer, I have no problem with him using the output. If Mary Beth paid for it, and Rockne using it, not so much. If so, he should have at least asked if she minded.

I think the question isn't so much if it was wrong of Rockne to use the program, but if it was advisable, or classy, or a good idea for him to do so. He certainly wasn't breaking any laws. But I do think it was an ill-advised, insensitive, very uncool move on his part. The fact that it's raised this much controversy essentially proves the point.

What raised my eyebrows: "We're two adults ..."
I don't know whether Brubaker wanted to imply in a snarky way that Marley was an immature child. I hope not.
Even if his comment was intended to be a neutral indirect reference to Marley's chronological age, it still rubs me the wrong way. If he had concerns about her age, he should not have teamed up with her in the first place.

I felt the same way. I get that Rockne may find it refreshing to skate with an older girl, but again, I just think it was ill-advised and insensitive for him to emphasize this not once but twice in the interview. It just comes across as a dig at Mary Beth (and Keauna, for that matter).

 

[ice coverage]

Let's face it: Rockne's last two TEENAGE partners have abruptly quit the partnership. I am GLAD he has at last found an adult partner who has enough confidence in herself to stay the course.

Seems way too early to say whether Davis has "stayed the course" with Brubaker longer than his previous partners.
We do not know why her partnershp with Ladwig ended, but one might say that she "stayed the course" with him only one season.
If the Davis/Brubaker partnership endures, and they surpass his success with other partners, all credit to D/B.
Meanwhile, my best wishes to Marley.

 

[Robeye]

The key & missing piece on resuing the M&B choreography for the D&B team would be to my mind, whether one or both of the M&B team members paid the choreographer. If Rockne paid the choreographer, I have no problem with him using the output. If Mary Beth paid for it, and Rockne using it, not so much. If so, he should have at least asked if she minded.

I agree that if Mary Beth paid for all or part of the cost, then she has not only a moral, but quite likely a legal right to have a say in what is done with the choreography (or at the very least be compensated for its use). I don't know the precise legal niceties of figure skating choreography contracts, but if the fee-payers don't own the work itself, I'm pretty sure that at the very least very specific rights are given as to their use.

I am guessing that this is probably not the case. Certainly if she wholly paid for it, and probably even if she went halves with him on it, I'm willing to bet that her first words on the subject would not have been about "disappointment". They would, I think, have been something to the effect of "HOLD IT RIGHT THERE, BUSTER. That's my stuff you're using without permission. Stop right now, or I'm going to slap you with an injunction and sue your butt."

If this were the case, I would also question the basic judgment and professional competence of Brubaker and Davis and their team. Who would want to invest themselves in a program that a pissed-off former partner could potentially stop you from using (the ultimate nightmare would be an injunction right before the Olympics)?

If, as appears, Rockne didn't, out of courtesy, let Mary Beth know beforehand that they would be using it, then it's possible that Rockne was guilty of being an insensitive cad (although it's also possible that there's another side, as well, to why he chose not to do that). But if he, his partner, and their team didn't think through and clear the legal aspects before they went all-in with the program, then they were imbeciles.

I am going to assume that they do not consist of an entire group of imbeciles, as a matter of Occam's Razor, until proven wrong.

 

[dorispulaski]

Well, the simplest explanation is usually that a group is entirely consisting of imbeciles

Mary Beth is still very young and she is coaching. It would not do her any good professionally to sue an ex partner that is as high profile, and with a big fan base as Rockne. So if she had a right to sue, and didn't, I wouldn't call her an imbecile.

 

[Robeye]

I think the question isn't so much if it was wrong of Rockne to use the program, but if it was advisable, or classy, or a good idea for him to do so. He certainly wasn't breaking any laws. But I do think it was an ill-advised, insensitive, very uncool move on his part. The fact that it's raised this much controversy essentially proves the point.

I agree that it would have been better all around if Rockne had had a nice chat with Mary Beth, and she graciously gave her blessing.

But there is a lot to this story that we don't know, and maybe never will. To wit: whether Brubaker and Marley had the kind of relationship where such a conversation was possible. Mary Beth's tweet gives some indication that it might not have gone as desired.

Since there has been quite a bit of (subdued) vilification of Rockne going on, I'll raise the following counterpoint for consideration; Marley's twitter response could give the impression that, for Mary Beth, the issue is all about her, me, me, me.

Why do I suggest this? Because, if I were in a situation where I broke up a partnership, albeit for quite compelling and valid personal reasons, I would hope that I would not just be thinking about why such a move was good for me, but also how sorry I was for the damage and hurt I was doing to the partner, especially if the partner's culminating career goal was on the line. I would hope I would bend over backwards to help my former partner get back on track, and not throw a hissy because a project that we collaborated on together is going to be continued with someone else. If I made a financial investment, then it is entirely reasonable to expect some compensation, if legally appropriate. But Mary Beth's objection, from what can be seen in the tweet, was not that she had a financial interest, or that it would have been nice to be consulted, but that the program was being used at all. It reminds me of those Viking archaeological sites, which show their determination that everything they used in life must be buried with them, no matter their continuing usefulness.

My final thought on this skating soap opera is: it's also possible that attempting to be completely "cool" and "classy" in the eyes of a sentimental public possessing incomplete information is a luxury that only those with an excess of time, space, and dollars can fully afford.

 

[lcd]

I haven't studied the ins and outs of the situation, but really, why would she expect him not to use the program? When she frankly left him in the lurch, however understandable her decision is (and it is very understandable)?

I truly wonder if I am missing something here -- She left him, he's getting rather older and desperate for a partner, and he hasn't said anything negative about her, has he? But according to her, he was not supposed to make the best of things and salvage whatever he could to move forward quickly, even if it meant re-using the program? Chuckm said it better, but there are a whole host of practical reasons to re-use the program.

Would an actress with the lead in a movie in production, who chose to leave the film herself for whatever legitimate reasons, still expect the film just to never get made because how dare they re-cast the role? Did MBM have a hand in the choreo or something that makes it her work beyond being Rockne's former partner?

I'm floored she feels she is entitled to be hurt over the situation, at least as it appears. I could completely understand her expressing how painful it might be to see someone else doing the routine, in a non-blaming way at just being sad about how things turned out, but to say she has "lost respect" for Rockne doesn't seem justified.

While the whole situation is somewhat odd, I can definitely see how feelings would differ, depending on the perspective.
Realistically, however, I do not recall that Rockne and Mary Beth ever performed this program to an extent that would have declared it a "recycling" I may be incorrect, but I believe there was only time for some early season club type events, prior to the break up in July of that year.

From a practical standpoint, with factors like TIME - the new team was getting a relatively later start, and both skaters needed to put time into relocating to their new training base in Canton (anybody who has moved knows how time consuming, stressful, exhausting and expensive that is) and COST standpoint (again, cost - and I acknowledge that others have speculated that if Mary Beth had somehow disproproportionately shouldered the cost burden on the choreography, she might have a basis for arguing she should have had more of a 'say' on 'rights towards use ... though, I find that a bit of a stretch) not needing to take a whole 3-5 days and pay for an entirely new program (which can cost thousands) for choreography and music cuts, it just seems like a PRACTICAL decision was made. Not everyone was going to be happy but REALISTICALLY, I can't blame Rockne the way it seems he is being blamed. Just my opinion.

 

[Robeye]

Mary Beth is still very young and she is coaching. It would not do her any good professionally to sue an ex partner that is as high profile, and with a big fan base as Rockne. So if she had a right to sue, and didn't, I wouldn't call her an imbecile.

If professional considerations and the goodwill of Rockne and his fans were why she isn't suing, then she's simultaneously making a hash of it with her tweet .

No, I will venture that the reason there are no legal actions is because there is no basis for it.

I do agree that Mary Beth is still very young.



(BTW: the "imbecile" reference was not directed at Mary Beth ).

 

[ManyCairns]

lcd, the practical reasons are also what I find most compelling. I'm sure it would have been great for everyone if D/B had started afresh, but it would have been one more huge and difficult step on top of many other career-altering changes. Again, I totally understand that it would be VERY painful for Mary Beth to see the program being skated by someone else, but unless she did pay for it or contributed to the choreo in some significant way that we don't know about -- I just don't see how she can justifiably blame Brubaker in that way. That she is feeling pain, disappointment, etc. -- absolutely. But blame and profound loss of respect don't seem quite fair IMO. It was probably largely a crunch-time, making-the-best-of-things type of desperate decision.

Anyway, the whole situation is difficult and heartbreaking and frankly unlikely to end hugely well for anyone involved. I would guess they are all looking at greatly modified goals for their skating careers at this point. I hope MBM can stay healthy.

 

[tulosai]

Ok my 5-point nutshell in which I attempt to keep it real and not make anyone a villain (or make everyone a villain, who knows):

1. Regarding whether MBM left the partnership 'abruptly' and if Rocknee was 'stunned' I think the answers are probably yes and no, respectively. I do think she left abruptly but I think if he was stunned he was kind of-deliberately turning a blind eye. Assuming she was telling the truth in the interview she couldn't put up lifts by the end. If your female partner can't put up a lift and you have no inkling something is wrong, that is some pretty serious denial. Now of course, she should have spoken to him more openly about what was going on and tried to give him more notice.

2. There is a huge age difference between these two. This is problematic for both of them. I agree with others that this was the risk Rocknee took pairing with children. That said, MBM is/was clearly not a bastion of maturity (though for her age, I'd say she is definitely doing okay).

3. I DO think the issue of who paid for the choreography (and/or if one of them had a big part in choreographing the routine) is VERY relevant. If MBM paid for it or choreographed parts herself, she herself may have wanted to use it again later if/ when she finds a new partner and she should have been able to do so. She also makes it sound like at a minimum, using that music was her idea, so it's possible that regardless of the 'legality' she is upset as she likely will be unable to use the music now at least for some time. Even if Rocknee paid for it, he probably should have showed some maturity himself and at least told MBM in advance what he was going to do. That said, MBM's interview made it pretty clear she and Rocknee don't talk anymore.

4. Neither of them should be saying anything to the press about one another (whether thinly veiled or outright) in any case. It will do them no good, just fuels kind of silly conversations like the one we are having here, and drastically reduces the chance of their partnering together again (in the event that the situation might ever come up) which frankly isn't something either of them should discount out of hand IMO. Now of course I hope Davis and Brubaker have a successful and lasting partnership, but there's no reason to assume that they will.

5. Regarding other people being hesitant to pair with MBM, who knows? It is a complicated question that a potential partner will have to consider carefully, and probably MBM will need to have long and detailed conversations with any potential partner about their concerns. That said, she has some things going for her, including but not limited to excellent (for an American with no previous experience) international results and a very good body for pairs skating (I am not referring to her weight but her height and proportions). I'm also interested in how judges will react to her if she comes back.