Medvedeva shoots at being the best ever | Page 18 | Golden Skate

Medvedeva shoots at being the best ever

OS

Sedated by Modonium
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Mar 23, 2010
You need to check out Alina Zagitova's programs it's already happening. Similarly other Russian youngsters such as Daria Panenkova and Anna Shcherbakova - there's a video out there of her doing 11 triples and 2 double axels in the back half of an exhibition version of her free skate. She's 12. Agree you with defensive strategy re SPs, have thought Karen Chen for example should consider the Gabby Daleman/Liza T route of 3T-3T and solo 3LZ, plus she has a 2A-1Lo-3S in her free skate unlike Gabby and Liza's 3S-2A in seq. However they do sacrifice a point/0.8 by not doing a 3F or 3Lo, I guess it's what particular skaters are good at and skating to maximise their strengths and minimise their weaknesses.

They just need add a tano or rippon, 0.7 GOE wipe out the difference.

I forgot to say Ashley was one of the many victims of 100% European Judge Panel, as the same penalties were not equally applied to Carolina. Same reason Carolina were able to maintain her high PCS despite a terrible FS in 2014 WC, where she was to keep her 73.78 PCS (higher than Mao) despite only having 2 clean triples in her entire program, that one had 100% European Panel too.
 
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Miller

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
They just need add a tano or rippon, 0.7 GOE wipe out the difference.

I forgot to say Ashley was one of the many victims of 100% European Judge Panel, as the same penalties were not equally applied to Carolina. Same reason Carolina were able to maintain her high PCS despite a terrible FS in 2014 WC, where she was to keep her 73.78 PCS (Higher than Mao) despite only having 2 clean triples in her entire program, that one had 100% European Panel too.

Can't say I agree with you re Ashley, her PCS was 68, hardly underscored, plus Carolina at 2014 Worlds was probably a 'parting gift' from the judges. They no doubt expected her to retire and so gave her a ridiculously high score. Doubt that European judges were anything to do with it.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
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Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Can't say I agree with you re Ashley, her PCS was 68, hardly underscored, plus Carolina at 2014 Worlds was probably a 'parting gift' from the judges. They no doubt expected her to retire and so gave her a ridiculously high score. Doubt that European judges were anything to do with it.

It was not the first time Carolina been gifted, although I do agree with you somewhat (when the same thing did not happen for Yuna/Mao/Miki or anyone else) but still pretty outrageous scoring. What do you think of Sotskova's almost 65 then? Her PCS was 5th highest overall, TES 11th.

(Sorry gone totally OT hmm... my great weakness :biggrin:)
 
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Miller

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
It was not the first time Carolina been gifted, although I do agree with you somewhat (when the same thing did not happen for Yuna/Mao/Miki or anyone else) but still pretty outrageous scoring. What do you think of Sotskova's almost 65 then? Her PCS was 5th highest overall, TES 11th.

(Sorry gone totally OT hmm... my great weakness :biggrin:)

Can't really say I've thought a lot of it, Sotskova's PCS. Perhaps you should set up a Worlds Ladies PCS thread. We've gone completely off-topic, plus on the quiet there may be quite a lot to discuss e.g. how almost for the time ever you were getting big gaps between TES and PCS with TES higher than PCS. Just a thought.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Thank you so much for the hardwork. It is good to look over the rule changes history in greater detail. The 'rule change' just to show how powerful the technical committee can be to 'gear shifting' the points rewarding system on a whim. If ISU want to push for certain outcome, they can just strategically place their most strict technical caller at certain competitions and keep them away from others. When for a while now imho, I feel the rule changes appears to target specific skaters, it does make you question why they are being moved about so much. Motivation, benefit and rewards.

I have noticed a few years now, the effect of these rule changes ends up removing differentials between one of the hardest combos like 3lz3t to the easiest 3t/3t after you factored the relaxed GOEs. The system ends up removing differentials of quality, difficulty and variety but not in quantity. As seen in recent WC, the difference between a 3lz3t to a 3t3t or 3f3t are worth less than +1 GOE equivalent in scoring (no more than 1x tano). The inflation of PCS certainly leads to the likes of Evegnia's rise while minimise the strength of those from Kostner, Asada, Wagner or those who focus on quality such as greater speed, coverage and attacks their elements (more effort devoted to a single element), and actualise a great performance and program.

Although it wouldn't affect Kostner as much her PCS rarely drops no matter how badly her TES get under a European majority panel. Where as, it can a affect the likes of Mao, Ashley and pretty much any non-Russian or those named Anna. Sotskova's PCS held her up during the FS, she got HIGHER PCS than Miki Ando winning the WC 2011 (an inflated PCS already) + a decent Kostner then, even Sotskova's TES had been 11th in the field in a debut season. Where as someone's who managed to do the rare clean high TES hardly affect their PCS to a competitive level, like Dabin Choi who actually had the 4th highest TES with 2x 3lz in the FS, but ends up 10th in PCS overall at 58.73




You are far too generous, I'd mark them about 67 ~ 69. Reason. I'd mark Kaetlyn overall higher in the SP. Evgenia higher in the long. And then everyone else reduce by 3-4 points (less drop than the leader at 76 :rofl:) in the last 2 flights, and increase the 1st flight by 2-3 points. The difference in PCS between then and now is crazy and wholly unjustified. TES may be okay despite generous and relaxed GOE rules, but it shouldn't affect on PCS THAT severely.

I don't think the judges are watching WC2011 programs prior to the 2017 free skate. They're marking these programs absolutely, not relative to Kim and Asada.

Pcs has also bumped up since then. I could point out guys who get higher PCS than Chan's winning Worlds 2011 FS (91.52 PCS) or Dai's winning Worlds 2010 FS (86.50 PCS) and it wouldn't be a great comparison.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I don't think the judges are watching WC2011 programs prior to the 2017 free skate. They're marking these programs absolutely, not relative to Kim and Asada.

Pcs has also bumped up since then. I could point out guys who get higher PCS than Chan's winning Worlds 2011 FS (91.52 PCS) or Dai's winning Worlds 2010 FS (86.50 PCS) and it wouldn't be a great comparison.

Yeah one of those PCS are generally inflated, let's not bother with keeping the standard because it is impractical and inconvenient, but if a Quad+2 GOEs is worth the same as 4 years ago, why can't the PCS?

Guys at least have the quad advancement to justify the balance, ladies, it is just bunch of more tanos, backloads, no even a good program is needed. Now, 3t3t practically = 3lz3t. Can you imagine if the guys scale value is so screwed up 1 Quad t = 1 Quad lz?
 
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asp11

Just a dedicated fan - not a skater
On the Ice
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Oct 31, 2014
But I have yet to see a sincere, moving, timeless program from her to consider her one of the best ever. Her consistency will give her medals and records for sure but touching people's hearts with your skating and having memorable program/s are, in my opinion, a far greater feat. Right now, I feel like her programs are pretentious and exudes, dare I say, fake sympathy, not to mention exploitative. I know these are harsh words and not directed to her but on her programs, but this is what I truly feel from her programs/choreography. There are more ways to tell a story than literal pantomiming.

I agree to a certain extent. I believe she hinted about making "different" programs at the worlds press conference for next season. It will be interesting to see what her team comes up with.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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Feb 17, 2010
Now 3t3t practically = 3lz3t.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. You're comparing probably the best ever IJS-featured 3T-3T from Gabrielle against good executions of harder 3-3's. Even if a lutz is, for example, 20% more valuable than a 3T, as a combo with the same second jump, the lutz combo is only ~10% more valuable, as the second jump dilutes the margin between those values.
 

[email protected]

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Mar 26, 2014
Interesting, if Zhenya can keep on. The load must have accumulated by now. I am not sure if WTT is going to be an easy breeze for her now that everyone expects that she will smash the competition yet another time. They pay a lot of money - this must be the reason for her to come. Otherwise, sending Anna to prove that her latest meltdown was an unfortunate misfire and Elena to prove that her whole season so far has been an unfortunate misfire would be a wiser move. The question is if Medvedeva tries to peak before significant competitions or if she is always at the peak. If one month after the WC she goes and does it again - 2 crystal clean programs, well, she is a super human. If she is not perfect this time of the year and in Japan, well, she is just a human. Which is good, in fact. Actually, I would like Radionova to win this although at this point the chances for that seem minimal.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
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Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I don't think that's entirely accurate. You're comparing probably the best ever IJS-featured 3T-3T from Gabrielle against good executions of harder 3-3's. Even if a lutz is, for example, 20% more valuable than a 3T, as a combo with the same second jump, the lutz combo is only ~10% more valuable, as the second jump dilutes the margin between those values.

GOES generally offset the difference. How about this.

Comparison A
3lz3t + 1 GOE opening combo = 11.0
3t3t + 2 GOE in 2nd half = (8.6 + 10%) + 1.4 = 10.86

The difference of 0.14 is still nothing.


Comparison B
3lz3t + 0 GOE opening combo = 10.3
3t3t + 1 GOE in 2nd half = (8.6 + 10%) + 0.7= 10.16
The difference of 0.14 is still nothing.

Is it easier to get add higher transitions and GOE with 3T3T vs 3lz3t?


Conclusion

3lz3t is undervaluated particularly in the SP, unless put in 2nd half.

Or they should start to consider scale GOEs according to difficulty, which seems fairer to the sport. Those with tough quad combos deserve higher GOEs values vs a single 4T.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
GOES generally offset the difference. How about this.

Comparison A
3lz3t + 1 GOE opening combo = 11.0
3t3t + 2 GOE in 2nd half = (8.6 + 10%) + 1.4 = 10.86...

Possibly the base value for a 3Lz+3T combo should be raised.

But overall, I am not outraged by these comparisons. There are more than one way to score points in the COP. One skater may train a 3Lz+3T as her first element and hope to get +1 GOE. Another may choose to train an easier combo, but increase the difficulty by putting it at the end of the program, concentrating on the quality (+2 GOE) and maybe throwing in a 'Tano for good measure.

"Youse pays your money and youse takes your choice." -- Popeye the Sailor Man
 
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drivingmissdaisy

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Feb 17, 2010
3lz3t is undervaluated

I don't disagree. Actually, my biggest complaint with the judging system is that it doesn't take into account difficulty in combinations. The problem with giving precise values for combinations is that you then have to create values for every possible combination. All six jumps, singles through quads, can be the first jump in a combination. That's 24 values. Each can be combined with a toe or a loop, so there's another 8. That's 192 values. All of those could include a third top or loop, so now we're up to 1536 possible combinations, and we haven't touched half loop combinations. So I'm ok with the PCS bump in lieu of having 20,000 values for possible combinations and arguments about how each one could be over or under valued. :)
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
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Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I don't disagree. Actually, my biggest complaint with the judging system is that it doesn't take into account difficulty in combinations. The problem with giving precise values for combinations is that you then have to create values for every possible combination. All six jumps, singles through quads, can be the first jump in a combination. That's 24 values. Each can be combined with a toe or a loop, so there's another 8. That's 192 values. All of those could include a third top or loop, so now we're up to 1536 possible combinations, and we haven't touched half loop combinations. So I'm ok with the PCS bump in lieu of having 20,000 values for possible combinations and arguments about how each one could be over or under valued. :)

Focus on the top 10 most difficult combos including 3A, and forget the rest.

Otherwise for the ladies, it will end up like a tick box system where jumps are too similar to one another. Not much difference other than whether you put in the 1st half or 2nd half. Then rest compete on inflated PCS when a lesser federation tier 2 skater will never be par with a tier 1 skater, no matter how clean and how difficult their programs are against backloading jumps. Mathematically improbable.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Yeah one of those PCS are generally inflated, let's not bother with keeping the standard because it is impractical and inconvenient, but if a Quad+2 GOEs is worth the same as 4 years ago, why can't the PCS?

Oh, come on now.... Dai's PCS weren't THAT generally inflated!
 

RobinBond

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Dec 26, 2006
Michelle Kwan, whom many consider the best ever for her consistency and heartfelt emotion, was a major force in ladies skating from 1996-2006, so 10 years. Medvedeva has been going for 2 years. So we'll have to check back in 2025 and see how great she is doing then. Let's see if she even goes on for 8 more years....
 

[email protected]

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Michelle Kwan, whom many consider the best ever for her consistency and heartfelt emotion, was a major force in ladies skating from 1996-2006, so 10 years. Medvedeva has been going for 2 years. So we'll have to check back in 2025 and see how great she is doing then. Let's see if she even goes on for 8 more years....

Medvedeva had 2 amazing seasons. But I agree on a big scale it is still not dramatic. I started the thread with "shoots at". And I mean that if there is one more season like that the game will change. No one ever in the recent history showed 3 consequtive seasons of sheer dominance Michelle Kwan included. And OGM (if) will be another major difference between them.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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Feb 17, 2010
And OGM (if) will be another major difference between them.

I think this will be very telling, as Michelle was never able to conquer the Olympics entering as the favorite (twice). Medvedeva is going into next season as the very heavy favorite, so if she is able to handle that kind of pressure and deliver her best, it will rank her among the all time greats.
 
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