Medvedeva shoots at being the best ever
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- Feb 17, 2010
I think it's hard to say. From Sochi onwards, there has been a drastic change towards packing programs with transitions to get high PCS. Evgenia's programs would look very different if she competed in 2010, as would Yuna's if she competed today. It's unfortunate, because Mao really had great content from that perspective, but it was not really rewarded at the time as much as it is today. However, like you said, 7 triples (with two 3-3's) and superior spins from a skater as good as Evgenia would get very close to the highest PCS marks, and would pass anyone on TES. Personally, I prefer skaters like Kaetlyn who make a genuine attempt to portray a mood with her performances, but I get that what Evgenia is doing out there is remarkably difficult. As someone else pointed out, her 3Lo entrance in the SP is insanely hard.
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- Jan 25, 2013
The flutz 30% deduction only came after Vancouver. In 2010 the rule was e would be like a -2 to -3 GOE reduction and a ! would be like a -1 to -2 reduction (I think it was introduced in the 2007-2008 season? Can't remember).
It was actually under-rotation that was the costly deduction... if you had a UR, your triple would be immediately given the base value of just a double (or quad the value of a triple). I'm surprised we didn't see more controversial results because of that rule -- you could imagine how much power that would give to tech specialists now (even for URs at 70% it can be significant). Someone like Mao or Murakami or Wagner would have some very wonky results depending on the tech specialist assessing them.
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- Jan 27, 2013
Hard to take your opinions as being even half-way serious, Klarnet. Have you ever seen Kaetlyn live? If you had you would def. see a difference between her PCS and other skaters. She combines both big jumps and artistry in a performance. If anything I thought she was underscored in PCS for both her SP and LP, and I am hearing that others on this Forum, agree.
Overscored, or 'bloated', as you called it...please. Your favs. may not have made it on the podium, and as upsetting as that is, I think judges this year got it right!
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- Feb 17, 2010
I would have had Osmond and Evgenia closer in PCS, especially in the long. However, I also understand that the only way to reward two successful 3-3s is through a PCS boost; how else do you incentivize skaters do go for the more risky 3-3 instead of a 2A-3T?
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- Jan 24, 2015
Kaetlyn was underscored in PCS for sure (she deserved to win the SP)
BTW, I think a new judging system is needed
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- Jun 21, 2003
Daleman! :yes:
How else? Change the scoring system to give more points to a 3-3, 2A versus 2A-3T, 3. No need to burden the PCS to correct a mistake in evaluating technical elements.
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- Jan 27, 2013
What about the SP, drivingmissdaisy, I thought Kaetlyn at <76 was laughable, when compared to Meds at 79. Thoughts?
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- Nov 1, 2008
You and OS' discussion sparked my interest so I spent some time digging the rules regarding wrong edge deduction since I don't remember them exactly after all these years. Pre-Vancouver (specifically one year, 2007-2008), I would consider the punishment for wrong edge actually quite significant (not as much as downgrade, of course) considering the fact that skaters would typically receive -1 to -2 final GOE for jumps taken off from wrong edge. Starting from 2008-2009, the punishment gets less severe.
Here is a list of major rule changes regarding wrong edge deduction from what I gathered:
2006-2007: It looks like there was no "e" mark. Guideline for GOE suggests taking off 1 to 3 GOE for "Starting from wrong edge (depending on length)". From looking at protocols, looks like skaters who fluzted or lipped received a range of GOE from positives to negatives.
2007-2008: I can't access the exact ISU communications (link is broken), but I remember this is when the judges/tech panel began emphasizing wrong edge jumps, and we began to see the "e" marks. For example, Mao and Caroline received -1 to -2 GOE for their 3(f)Lz in 2007 GPF.
2008-2010: "!" mark is introduced. Per ISU Communication 1504: "The Technical Panel will use the sign “ e ” (edge) for severe cases of wrong take-off edge (long wrong edge, no correct edge at all etc.); in these cases GOE of the Judges must be reduced by –1 to –3 and must be negative" & "The Technical Panel will use the sign “ ! ” (attention) in cases when a wrong take-off edge is short or not so obvious; in these cases the decision on the GOE is at the discretion of every Judge". Many (top) skaters began receiving "!" mark instead of "e", with GOE usually ending up around 0 to -1 for "average" jumps.
2010-2013: This is when "!" mark is removed. Per Communication 1611, "“Starting from the wrong edge” and “Unclear edge at take-off” in Flip or Lutz jumps will be identified by the Technical Panel to the Judges and in the Protocols with the sign “e”. Each Judge will then decide himself/herself on the severity of the error (major or minor error) and the corresponding GOE reduction." Severe wrong edge "e" must have final GOE in the negatives while unclear wrong edge (still "e") gets GOE reduction.
2013-2014: Same as above, with additional guideline for "UNCLEAR EDGE TAKE-OFF F/Lz (no sign)" which must result in reduction of 1 GOE (-1)
2014-2017: This is when 70% reduction in base value is introduced and "!" reintroduced. Communication 1861 says "In cases of serious errors (sign “e”) the base value of the jump and the GOE are reduced, final GOE is negative. In cases of smaller errors (sign “!”) the original base value stays, the GOE is reduced, however the final GOE is not restricted." GOE criteria is pretty much the same as the previous season.
In my opinion, flutz and lip were penalized the most in 2007-2008 when the skaters who took off with wrong edge received "e" mark and -1 to -2 GOE. Theoretically, the punishment for wrong edge take-off is indeed the most severe post-Sochi era; however, the reality is that almost no top skaters receive "e" marks anymore, and those who receive "!" mark aren't penalized as heavily in GOE as skaters of the past due to GOEflation. Adding more to the problem is the fact that there are skaters who get away with receiving not even "!" marks for their wrong edge take-off.
topic: And I realized this is probably super off-topic. Sorry! :- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
Yeah, they should have been closer there, as well. All Kaetlyn can do is continue skating strong programs to put in the judges' minds that she is capable of beating Evgenia. I'm confident that the OGM will go to the contender with the highest TES, as we see that's what usually happens in the women's event, so Kaetlyn (or whoever else) will have to catch Evgenia on technical merit to win.
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- Jan 28, 2014
I feel like Zhenia is striving for a career like Victor Nikiforov. 5 time world champ.
She has nerves of steel and such great consistency that it's a shock if she makes mistake/s. Surely, one of the best competitors we've seen.
But I have yet to see a sincere, moving, timeless program from her to consider her one of the best ever. Her consistency will give her medals and records for sure but touching people's hearts with your skating and having memorable program/s are, in my opinion, a far greater feat. Right now, I feel like her programs are pretentious and exudes, dare I say, fake sympathy, not to mention exploitative. I know these are harsh words and not directed to her but on her programs, but this is what I truly feel from her programs/choreography. There are more ways to tell a story than literal pantomiming.
She is capable of doing great things but the materials given to her are limiting her artistic expression. But we'll see. She's young and has great enthusiasm about skating I find so adorable. A cutiepie off ice but a diva on ice.
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- Jan 10, 2014
I believe the Title of the Thread is " Medvedeva shoots at being best ever". Of course she does and she should. How some can read something negative into that is truly amazing. She is only 17 and her consistency is a marvel. It is far easier to polish your presentation than it is to improve your technical ability. She just needs better programs and better packaging but you can say that about a lot of skaters. If she can stay injury free, I think she can dominate for a few years to come.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Kaetlyn was underscored in PCS for sure (she deserved to win the SP)
BTW, I think a new judging system is needed
She was underscored on PCS but Medvedeva's backloading gave her the edge IMO. I'd have had Osmond at about 77.5 if Medvedeva had 79... in reality they probably deserve more like 75 and 76-77.
You didn't really understand my comment, before you get all worked up on reading Osmond and bloated in one sentence, you should have read the context and previous comments I've been answering to, also air quotes for "bloated" don't give any hint? As my point was actually the other way round, I was pointing to how ridiculous it is that Costner's and Osmond's PCS are whooping 5 points lower than Evgenia's, when in fact they should be at least on par or higher. The bloated part was referring to OniBan's comment about how PCS have generally grown nowadays then previous years.
If that is the case, when why did when Mao had mistakes in her Worlds last year, and Evgenia was squeaky clean, people STILL complain?
whatever it is you missed my point. Whatever Evgenia achieve during her competitions, it does not take away nor diminish what the great skaters (Kim, Mao, Kostner, everyyyoooone) have done or achieved. That was their time. They were fantastic and will always be remembered as such. And this is NOW, the time for this new crop of skaters to shine. You cannot compare those two and say how one cannot live up to the other. What kind of ugly attitude is that? Why so insecure? Only people who can't let go of the past do that. And people who are SO insecure of their own myopic fanbase that they feel if someone scored more than their (now not even competing anymore skater) they have to constantly bash others in order to hold on to the past. Let it GO! And celebrate what is in front of you now.
I feel sad that this kind of bashing always happens for the ladies skaters - like what is it in humans that they just like to pit ladies against each other? Madness.
Well, actually you can, and that's exactly what we do. You sound like Mao and Kim are 200 years old, the criteria have not changed that drastically to neglect that easily the legacy of the past. The technical level has raised, true, but it's not like human artistry range has grown by leaps and bounds.
Don't turn it into something else, clearly, you don't give high PCS only for clean performance. Note on Mao's case was referred to higher PCS she could have get had she been clean.If that is the case, when why did when Mao had mistakes in her Worlds last year, and Evgenia was squeaky clean, people STILL complain?
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- Mar 23, 2010
Thank you so much for the hardwork. It is good to look over the rule changes history in greater detail. The 'rule change' just to show how powerful the technical committee can be to 'gear shifting' the points rewarding system on a whim. If ISU want to push for certain outcome, they can just strategically place their most strict technical caller at certain competitions and keep them away from others. When for a while now imho, I feel the rule changes appears to target specific skaters, it does make you question why they are being moved about so much. Motivation, benefit and rewards.
I have noticed a few years now, the effect of these rule changes ends up removing differentials between one of the hardest combos like 3lz3t to the easiest 3t/3t after you factored the relaxed GOEs. The system ends up removing differentials of quality, difficulty and variety but not in quantity. As seen in recent WC, the difference between a 3lz3t to a 3t3t or 3f3t are worth less than +1 GOE equivalent in scoring (no more than 1x tano). The inflation of PCS certainly leads to the likes of Evegnia's rise while minimise the strength of those from Kostner, Asada, Wagner or those who focus on quality such as greater speed, coverage and attacks their elements (more effort devoted to a single element), and actualise a great performance and program.
Although it wouldn't affect Kostner as much her PCS rarely drops no matter how badly her TES get under a European majority panel. Where as, it can a affect the likes of Mao, Ashley and pretty much any non-Russian or those named Anna. Sotskova's PCS held her up during the FS, she got HIGHER PCS than Miki Ando winning the WC 2011 (an inflated PCS already) + a decent Kostner then, even Sotskova's TES had been 11th in the field in a debut season. Where as someone's who managed to do the rare clean high TES hardly affect their PCS to a competitive level, like Dabin Choi who actually had the 4th highest TES with 2x 3lz in the FS, but ends up 10th in PCS overall at 58.73
You are far too generous, I'd mark them about 67 ~ 69. Reason. I'd mark Kaetlyn overall higher in the SP. Evgenia higher in the long. And then everyone else reduce by 3-4 points (less drop than the leader at 76
) in the last 2 flights, and increase the 1st flight by 2-3 points. The difference in PCS between then and now is crazy and wholly unjustified. TES may be okay despite generous and relaxed GOE rules, but it shouldn't affect on PCS THAT severely.
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I have noticed a few years now, the effect of these rule changes ends up removing differentials between one of the hardest combos like 3lz3t to the easiest 3t/3t after you factored the relaxed GOEs. The system ends up removing differentials of quality, difficulty and variety but not in quantity. As seen in recent WC, the difference between a 3lz3t to a 3t3t or 3f3t are worth less than +1 GOE equivalent in scoring (no more than 1x tano). The inflation of PCS certainly leads to the likes of Evegnia's rise while minimise the strength of those from Kostner, Asada, Wagner or those who focus on quality such as greater speed, coverage and attacks their elements (more effort devoted to a single element), and actualise a great performance and program.
Although it wouldn't affect Kostner as much her PCS rarely drops no matter how badly her TES get under a European majority panel. Where as, it can a affect the likes of Mao, Ashley and pretty much any non-Russian or those named Anna. Sotskova's PCS held her up during the FS, she got HIGHER PCS than Miki Ando winning the WC 2011 (an inflated PCS already) + a decent Kostner then, even Sotskova's TES had been 11th in the field in a debut season. Where as someone's who managed to do the rare clean high TES hardly affect their PCS to a competitive level, like Dabin Choi who actually had the 4th highest TES with 2x 3lz in the FS, but ends up 10th in PCS overall at 58.73
You are far too generous, I'd mark them about 67 ~ 69. Reason. I'd mark Kaetlyn overall higher in the SP. Evgenia higher in the long. And then everyone else reduce by 3-4 points (less drop than the leader at 76
One effect of doing a 3T-3T is that does back you into a corner when it comes to your other big combo involving 2 big jumps (to get the 7 triples/2 double axels in your 7 jumping passes). Both Gabby Daleman and Elizaveta T both do a 3S + 2A in sequence and so lose 20% of the base value of this combination, they can't do a further 3T because of the Zayak rule and so do rather end up robbing Peter to pay Paul despite their terrifc GOEs. OTOH Dabin is able to do the easier 2A-3T with a base value 1.44 higher than Gabby's or Liza's (if she was at the World Champs that is). So you have to look at the routine as a whole, and Dabin does gain by doing the 3Lz-3T, it's just not immediately apparent - agree with you re her PCS BTW, one or two other early skaters got low PCS IMO e.g. Mariah Bell, but Ashley got 68.
Back on topic, isn't it all about dominance and longevity. Evgenia certainly has the dominance, and longevity we'll have to see, but another year or two and surely she must be the best post war - Robin Cousins the other day on the BBC recap show (the recap show) described her as a 'once in a lifetime' skater not a once in a generation one.
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- Mar 23, 2010
The 3T3T rule imo was more beneficial in the short programs. It improves consistency as a defensive strategy, and especially powerful if you move it to the 2nd half of the short program which actually makes it worth more than most people's 3lz3t opening combo and wipes out any advantages others may have with a true 3lz.
ie/ Had Gaby moved her opening 3t3t to 2nd half, it would have scored 11.56 with her GOEs, which would overall be higher than Katetlyn's 3f3t (11.40) and Anna's 3lz3t (10.8), Karen's 3lz3t(10.90) or Dabin's 3lz3t (10.90), or Mai's 3lz3t (11.40) opening combos.
Then it is really about competing in the FS with backloading jumps with quantity and consistency. Morozov's approach for Miki back in 2011 WC has been basically exactly that, least effort maximum scoring, it kind of paved the way for hacking the COP scoring we see from Eteri's student. Time wasting first half posing miming using music edit as an excuse, then it was a jump drill of 5 consecutive jumping elements back to back after half way mark.
It will be interesting to see if this trend will be followed by everybody next year leading Olympic season. If everyone will train to put all the 3 jumping elements after the 2nd half in the short? Who can squeeze every point, run the best jump drill? How many rippons/tanos will we see? How are people going to time kill for half way mark.
I am personally looking forward to see if someone will decide to push all 7 jump passes to the 2nd half for the long. It will be totally hilarious and the greatest jump drill of all time.
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You need to check out Alina Zagitova's programs it's already happening. Similarly other Russian youngsters such as Daria Panenkova and Anna Shcherbakova - there's a video out there of her doing 11 triples and 2 double axels in the back half of an exhibition version of her free skate. She's 12. Agree you with defensive strategy re SPs, have thought Karen Chen for example should consider the Gabby Daleman/Liza T route of 3T-3T and solo 3LZ, plus she has a 2A-1Lo-3S in her free skate unlike Gabby and Liza's 3S-2A in seq. However they do sacrifice a point/0.8 by not doing a 3F or 3Lo, I guess it's what particular skaters are good at and skating to maximise their strengths and minimise their weaknesses.
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