Meissner Lands 8 TRIPLES

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Amber sometimes underrotates, sometimes not. She did at Nebelhorn, and to some extent in the 4CC FS, but her Nationals skates were fine. Yukina Ota has openly admitted that she has a habit of underrotating her jumps, and said she was working on it.

And who doesn't underrotate sometimes or overrotate sometimes?

It's enough to say in THAT competition, so and so underrotated her triple whatever. It serves no purpose, imo, to harp on it in a general way.

I could say that a certain skater in attempting to do a lutz always does a flip instead. The lutz needs to be worked on for correctness.. Nobody screams out 'she can't do a proper lutz'

Say it like it is at the time, and not like you heard someone else say last year.

Joe

 

[Matt]

Certainly an up and comer, and isn't this the first US lady's 3A since Tonya?

Was the 3A actually ratified by the judge, is my question?

I would love to see great things out of Meissner. The only footage I saw of her was an exhibition number at the US Nats when she was the US novice champion. This is the one that a number of posters have alluded to where she fell on the 3lutz, but come on, the girl was 13 and that's quite a jump to throw in exhibition

The challenge, IMHO, is not teaching her the hard jumps and crossing one's finger that puberty won't affect her technique on them, it's instilling the full package (jumps and artistry) into her and hoping that she keeps both of them as she improves as a skater. That's the thing about the Japanese girls: they're landing 3x3 combos and 3axels, but they also have a lot more attention to artistry than some of the "jumping phenoms" we've seen. It's having the artistry that's going to carry them to the higher levels in the sport. Even if they can do the 3axel after puberty, it's only a novelty unless they the artistic foundation. Take Ludmila Nelidina (sp?), for example. She landed a beautiful 3axel at SA while the rest of her programme was horrific. Yoshie Onda (although she has gotten better) is another

Speaking of Onda, did she ever, in fact, land a 3axel that the judges ratified? I know she attempted it forever

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Matt - Glad to have you aboard the Golden Skate. You take a serious view of the sport. Artistry is important but with the CoP, the technical comes more into play than before. Those tricks are going to pile up points, while in my opinion, the Artistry will continue to be subjective. What I think ill happen in the comps this season is that a few skaters will all be close in the technical points and the subjective presentation will define the winner.

There's nothing one can do with Presentation. All judges seem to like a good clean skate but they have to make up their mind who they will boost up with the points. With no hanky panky involved, some judges like the more lyrical skater while others like the more virtuoso skater.. My own preference is a skater who can handle the lyrical music and change off to the more bravuro music in the same program. Few skaters have that..ability until they get maturity. Kwan's LP in the DC Worlds had just that! Just my opinion on what I like in presentation.

Joe

 

[hockeyfan228]

Sarah WAS noticeably cheating her triples during the 2000-2001 season. She worked hard on those jumps and by the time SLC came around, most of her triples were completely rotated.

Since this was brought up several times in this thread, I went back to the videotape, or, more precisely, to the "Olympic Figure Skating Greatest Performances in History [sic]" DVD, and used the frame by frame and slo-mo features of my TiVo.

In the SP in her steps into 3F, she picks at 11 o'clock, doesn't really launch the jump until 6 o'clock, lands at 9 o'clock, and rotates to run out at 11 o'clock. In her 3FZ/2R combo, she picks at 3 o'clock, vaults between 5-6 o'clock, lands at about 12 o'clock, lifts again at 5 o'clock, and lands at 3 o'clock. Ironically, there was less than a quarter turn cheat on the ending loop.

In the LP in the 3S/3R combo, she lifts at 6 o'clock, lands at 2 o'clock, lifts again between 9-10 o'clock, and lands at 2-3 o'clock. In the 3FZ/3T combo, she vaults at 5 o'clock, lands at 3 o'clock, vaults again at 6 o'clock, and lands at 4 o'clock.

So while she was working hard on her jumps, they were not fully rotated at SLC.

It wasn't easy to follow her jumps for several reasons:

1. Her free leg, like many flutzers', is not directly behind her with a straight pick, which seems to cause a lot of pre-rotation. She must have muscled many of the jumps, because her pick is out of position.

2. Her feet and body are in different positions: while her body looks like it's making close to full rotations, her feet are pre-rotating and cheating the landings.

3. She gets back to starting position by having the swing of her free leg rotate her blade.

On the same DVD was an excerpt from Janet Lynn's Olympic freeskate. She did a perfect 2Z: not only was her outside edge impeccable, but the counter balance with her free leg and her pick into the ice was picture perfect. Between the pop and the rhythm of the jump, it could have almost passed for a triple.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Nice detective work, Hockeyfan - But do you really think the judges have that clock concept when watching the competition? Sarah won. I know it's hard to believe but she did. Maybe they did notice the so called underrotated jumps that the MK and SC fans did. but it wasn't enough to put her down. And think of Oksana with the two foot landings that were never noticed. C'est la vie.

On another note... it seems that underrotated jumps are a worse offense than a fall. Am I correct?

Joe

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Maybe they did notice the so called underrotated jumps that the MK and SC fans did.
On another note... it seems that underrotated jumps are a worse offense than a fall. Am I correct?

Joe

It's not just the SC and MK fans...and I think numerous underrotated jumps are worse than a fall on one jump., and this is coming from someone who thinks Sarah deserved to win the LP.

 

[humbaba]

hockeyfan, your analysis of Sarah's jumps was very interesting. Just remember that a jump takes place in three dimensions, while your DVD player only allows you to see two. I worked in a biomechanics lab when I was in graduate school. I digitized alot of film of various sports and I can tell you that trying to make judgements about the true nature of movement based on any kind of two dimensional video media is fraught with pitfalls.

In the lab we only used film that had reliable horizontal and vertical reference points and scales. The computer programs that analyzed the movement had all sorts of complex formulas to compensate and make adjustments for the distortions that inevitably come with filming movement in two dimensions.

I always think back to my days digitizing film whenever posters debate whether or not a skater's jumps were cheated based only on what they've seen on television. My feeling is that an observant viewer can pick up significant errors from film or video. However, I'm sceptical that even a knowledable viewer can detect more subtle errors accurately. The conversion of live movement to a flat visual medium is too imperfect to make fine judgments and distinctions.

 

[Fossi]

I remember being very angry at Irina Slutskaya when she made rude comments about Sarah and her jumps after Sarah had won the Olympic gold. I think Irina was very jealous, felt she skated "clean" and could not understand why the judges didn't give her gold. I am finally able to enjoy Irina's skating again. I just wish everyone had the great sportsmanship of Sarah. She has never bashed on a competitor.
IMO, Sarah really deserved to win that night. Whether a few of her jumps were cheated didn't matter. Of the top 4 ladies, she is the only one that stayed on her feet, and delivered a technically brilliant performance. Sasha splatted amd was noticebly inferior in basic skills than the others, Michelle folded under the pressure, Irina had a major bobble and was the sloppiest of the top 4, and Sarah skated her little heart out.
The judges made the right decision.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Nice detective work, Hockeyfan - But do you really think the judges have that clock concept when watching the competition? Sarah won. I know it's hard to believe but she did. Maybe they did notice the so called underrotated jumps that the MK and SC fans did. but it wasn't enough to put her down. And think of Oksana with the two foot landings that were never noticed. C'est la vie.

On another note... it seems that underrotated jumps are a worse offense than a fall. Am I correct?

Joe

First, I wouldn't argue that she didn't deserve to win anyway. And I don't think underrotated jumps are a worse offense than falls. But look at what happened at Dortmund: underrotated jump attempts and shoddy landings on combo jumps were treated under OBO the same as completed jumps with proper landings. And many of the underrotations were clear to the naked eye, particularly the half turn cheats. (I wasn't at SLC, so I can't say whether Hughes' jumps were underrotated to the naked eye.)

Under CoP the callers are using video to determine whether jumps were underrotated, and are downgrading the jumps accordingly. The judges know that the jumps are downgraded, because they have a plan and compare the actual jump to the plan, and then the callers' determination is displayed onscreen before the marks are tallied.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Under CoP the callers are using video to determine whether jumps were underrotated, and are downgrading the jumps accordingly. The judges know that the jumps are downgraded, because they have a plan and compare the actual jump to the plan, and then the callers' determination is displayed onscreen before the marks are tallied.

This will be a blessing for the skaters because, imo, fanatics of one skater pick up on anything derrogatory about rivals. And the branding forever begins. What Sarah has and few of the ladies have is that her air rotations are slow. This is a quality I like, and it is subjective, because others like the speeding bullet type a la Tara. Of course, music has a lot to do with it too. Depending on where you are in an arena, live jumping may or may not be easy to see. It is not like Dambier's big fault to land his jumps on the toe rakes and then go onto to the blade. That's obvious from anywhere, and I would not brand him with that because he just might correct that in the future. On TV I sometimes find it very hard to see the edge of the skater's toe-offs because of the camera angle. The instant closeup replay is good but not always shown on TV. This is another blessing for the judges.

We'll see how the downgrading goes for underrotated jumps in the upcoming season. So many things to watch.

Joe

 

[BittyBug]

IMO, Sarah really deserved to win that night. Whether a few of her jumps were cheated didn't matter. Of the top 4 ladies, she is the only one that stayed on her feet, and delivered a technically brilliant performance.

I agree that Sarah deserved to win, but I don't think that you can call a program with underrotated jumps and an egregious flutz "technically brilliant." It was brilliant in that Sarah was very ambitious in her content, and the choreography was interesting and complex, but from a technical perspective, there were some pretty serious flaws.

 

[chuckm]

Yes, underrotated jumps will get downgraded under CoP, but that doesn't necessarily mean the underrotater can't win. We saw some pretty egregious flutzing from Ms. Cohen last year, which didn't get dinged much, either from the caller or the judging panel. Ms. Cohen fell twice in the GPF FS and still managed to rack up really high marks in Skating Components, high enough to edge Arakawa for silver.

Yes, there will be a deduction for each fall, this season, but judges can still use Skating Components marks to prop up a favored skater, just as they jacked up Presentation scores under the 6.0 system to make sure a certain skater won (remember Slutskaya's gold medal in the 2001-2002 GPF FS for an incredibly sloppy 4-triple performance?).

I think it will be perfectly possible for Cohen to continue to win without a quad or a 3/3, even if Ando manages land a perfect 4S and a clean FS, because Cohen will get always get high enough SC marks to edge out Ando.

JMHO.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yes, there will be a deduction for each fall, this season, but judges can still use Skating Components marks to prop up a favored skater,l JMHO.

Easily, Tarassova herself said, this CoP will be easier for judges to cheat. When you bring up (or down) an element with a minus 3, you are really ensuring that skater does not win. Although, the random draw comes into play, it is possible for bloc judging to continue.

It would be interesting to see the complete scores and judges' NAMES at the conclusion of the competition. The measure to reveal that information was defeated by bloc voters.

Whatever happened to one's Power of Conviction?

Joe

 

[Vash01]

I agree that Sarah deserved to win, but I don't think that you can call a program with underrotated jumps and an egregious flutz "technically brilliant." It was brilliant in that Sarah was very ambitious in her content, and the choreography was interesting and complex, but from a technical perspective, there were some pretty serious flaws.

Bittybug,

Well said. Regardless of what color medal she won, Sarah's very apparent flaws are often ignored. She was neither technically brilliant nor artistically mature in her performance, but she did attempt the most difficult jumps that night and she was the only one that delivered- to the best of HER ability.

 

[astarz41]

IMO, Sarah really deserved to win that night. Whether a few of her jumps were cheated didn't matter. Of the top 4 ladies, she is the only one that stayed on her feet, and delivered a technically brilliant performance. ]IMO, Sarah really deserved to win that night. Whether a few of her jumps were cheated didn't matter. Of the top 4 ladies, she is the only one that stayed on her feet, and delivered a technically brilliant performance.

Really, what did Irina fall on? As for Sarah, had that competition been judged under CoP she wouldn't have "landed" two 3/3s because they'd be downgraded to doubles as well as some of her other triples. Sarah won the lottery in SLC in both short and long.

 

[Fossi]

Irina may not have "fallen," but IIRC, she put her hand down on a jump, had a very shakey landing and came close to falling. Her triple sequence was sloppy and looked like she made a mistake, and her skating was flat. She barely stayed on her feet, and it showed and took away from her program. I will never understand why she thought she won.
Maybe Sarah would've been judged differently under COP, but Irina would've too. I'm not sure where either would've ranked at SLC under COP. Thankfully, it wasn't COP and we dont need to worry about it.

 

[shine]

Yeah, Slutskaya for sure would have been judged differently under CoP, receiving anonymous first place ordinals that is.

 

[Vash01]

Irina may not have "fallen," but IIRC, she put her hand down on a jump, had a very shakey landing and came close to falling. Her triple sequence was sloppy and looked like she made a mistake, and her skating was flat. She barely stayed on her feet, and it showed and took away from her program. I will never understand why she thought she won.
Maybe Sarah would've been judged differently under COP, but Irina would've too. I'm not sure where either would've ranked at SLC under COP. Thankfully, it wasn't COP and we dont need to worry about it.

Irina did not fall and she did not put her hand down on a triple jump. She had a big struggle and very strange landing on the triple flip, but it was a landed jump, incredible though it may seem. She was nowhere the usual, sparkly Irina, however. She was nervous, cautious, and she could not pull off a 3-3- combination.

 

[Mathman]

I have noticed that Peggy Fleming, especially, is always quite complimentary of the skill of skaters who do a bad jump but then somehow, incredibly, manage to hold on to the landing edge come hell or high water. It certainly upsets the flow of the program and it looks awkward and ungainly, but it does show a lot of physical strength and mental determination.

Mathman

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Irina did not fall and she did not put her hand down on a triple jump. She had a big struggle and very strange landing on the triple flip, but it was a landed jump, incredible though it may seem. She was nowhere the usual, sparkly Irina, however. She was nervous, cautious, and she could not pull off a 3-3- combination.

Vash - With all due respect to Irina and for that matter, MK and sC, too, none of these skaters had any sparkle in their skating. I believe SC wanted to be the next Tara and got nervous,. MK knew this could be her last skate as an eligible and got nervous. IS, knew she was going to win and that got her nervous.

The sixteen year old had an insignificant SP so she had nothing to lose being in fourth place except to show the audience she was a good skater. She did just that. And I really believe that the lack of sparkle in the other three was more of a comedown than the falls and bobbles.

What I seem to be seeing in the Olys which I do not see much of in the Worlds is exactly that sparkle you mentioned. For some reason the atmosphere at the Olys requires a tense situation and the winner who rises above the tension.

Joe