Men - Final Results

[gracefulswan]

don't worry... plush has shown he can skate clean consistently... can joubert???

plus, i read at fsu and one of the plush boards that plush tried to attempt a quad axel and that failed attempt threw away his momentum and concentration for some of the other jumps.

not sure if i agree with his decision to try such a jump as i don't remember having heard that he was practicing it to begin with.

 

[Evdokia]

I also think that in one of the Euros, Abt should have won, and a messy Yags did. In US Nats I think MK was held up over SC, in 2000. These are my personal takes on seeing a competition and are certainly debateable. There reqally aren't that many, and they are not always Russian skaters.

Yeah, Russians held up against Russians and Americans against Americans, well, given that facts, one might come to the conclusion that each countries' fed has it's own favourites and those ones, they don't like. And now you can see this with French fed in some way as well, when abusing Dambier's placement to strengthen Joubert's position for worlds.

 

[Matt]

I don't think Joubert will be held up per se. I think this whole accusation of federations having more pull over the other comes from the fact that, in the judges' minds, they're regarding the strength of the country's program. Generally, the Russians (you can read Americans or Canadians, if you which) get higher placements because they consistently skate well, and even if they make mistakes, the judges know they are coming from a program that is well-known, well-regarded, and that the skater has the ability coming from that program, so they will be higher in placements. It's why it is so much harder if you're coming from a country like San Marino; they don't know you, or your federation, so they're wary at putting you near the top, when in all actuality, you may be better than some of this skaters from Russia or France.

I apologize if this sounds discriminatory (and confusing); I'm trying to play devil's advocate by posing a theoretical example. As for Joubert, he'll certainly be favorable in the judges' minds due to his Euro title after this, but I think that he still will be (and should be) subject to the judges if he makes mistakes, like any other skater. He's just a little bit better known.

This is why I like the CoP; it's about what you do right or wrong, instead of what the judges think of you, which it should be about

 

[diver chick]

I agree that with the interim system there is no way of knowing who gave what marks however, with two falls and almost falling out of a spin, technical marks of 5.8 are just not right and lead to the speculation that some skaters are being unfairly held up.
It doesn't just happen with the top skaters - one just has to look at some of the ordinal marks of the lower skaters and one wonders whether the judges have watched the same program.

Gracefulswan, joubert deserved to win last night (not that I think you are disputing that) and you are right that Joubert's biggest task now is to prove his consistency. Plush has proven himself over and over to the point that it was plain to everyone watching last night that Plush was not himself because he has been so consistent in the past. Brian on the other hand now needs to prove that he can keep up this level of skating - I for one really hope he can. I am not however inclined to believe that there is no dodgy judging and skaters not being held up. It isn't the skaters fault but it happens and as long as the judges are allowed to get away with it, it will keep happening and I am worried that it will ruin what is a wonderful sport.

 

[gracefulswan]

diver chick, you are right to think that it's naive to believe corrupt judging doesn't still prevail... however, to point out over and over that only the russians or east european judges are the culprits is just plain wrong and unfair. i've seen western judges do the exact same thing on account of their own skaters... and keep doing it... i see it from many different judges... even from asian ones. it seems to be inherent in the system. i hope the new COPs helps with this rampant bias problem somewhat. yet, i wouldn't hold my breath on that score....:\

 

[hockeyfan228]

What was so strange about Plushenko's LP, which I only saw in the tiny Windows Media version, was the contrast between top-notch excellent and downright awful. He had a weak forward landing position on the 4T in the 4T/3T/2L combination, and he did a full circle out of the 2L, which he's been doing pretty much since Worlds '03. Then, after popping two 3A attempts in a row -- the fall on the first looked like a trip -- he did a fantastic 3A/3T/2L with flow out of the 2R. Even though he seemed to have lost energy after his initial troubles, he reenergized for his straighline footwork, which was terrific, and with a minute to go, he improvised another fantastic 3A. But, as counterintuitive as it seems, when the rest of his program has weaknesses, it really brings out the issues he has with his spins -- weak positions, loss of speed in the Biellman, inconsistent speeds in his spins that have nothing to do with the music. When his jumps are on, it's easy to give the spins the benefit of the doubt.

It was also really too bad about the near-trip on the final spins, because he went into it like a speed demon, and it looked to me like he lost his posture, and by bending from the waist, his crossed legs were too low, and he got tripped up.

By contrast Klimkin's spins, which look really sloooow on TV like his skating in general, have a very different feel in person. He has terrific posture and strength in his back, and this makes his spins look powerful, and some of them mesmerizing. Now he's got to land all of those jumps!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

As I said, I have not seen the competition and I reserve my right to an opinion when I do see the skate.

However, many posters who have seen the competition either live or on TV have mentioned that Plush fell twice and was otherwise messy. From what I read, I thought a second place is a very high placement in figure skating. I mentioned him being held up (because of reputation). No one poster has yet said he deserved second place!! In spite of the mishaps he was better than Dambier, Klimkin, Lindemann, Lambiel. Am I correct?

Joe

 

[Jaana]

Actually I don´t think that Plushy was held up in the scores (not much if at all), because there was only one to skate after him in the freeskate. Although Plushenko fell, he also managed to put successfull jumps in. In my opinion he deserved a silver medal even with this awful skate (especially to his standard, LOL), because he had won a QR and also the short programme.

Dambier: 2nd in QR, 4th in SP, 4th in FS and 4th overall
Klimkin: 2nd in QR, 3rd in SP, 3rd in FS and 3rd overall
Lindemann: 3rd in QR, 8th in SP, 6th in FS and 5th overall
Lambiel: 4th in QR, 12th in SP, 5th in FS and 5th overall

Marjaana

 

[diver chick]

Joe, I believe is Plush had been marked correctly for the program that he skated out there he would not have been in second place.

Plush is an incredibly talented skater but on the night the quality of that performance was nothing short of terrible and it must be incredibly frustrating for skaters to go out, skate clean programs and still end up marked behind a program like that. Gracefulswan, you are right that it is not just the Russian judges, it's all the judges.

Had Plushenko been a lesser known skater, skating earlier in the proceedings, you can be sure that there is no way we would have seen marks in the high fives for a program like that, and for me that smacks of double standards and judging by reputation.

BTW I am not having a go at Plush here, it's the judging I am moaning about and Plush just happens to be the recipient of some unfortunate judging IMO

 

[hockeyfan228]

No one poster has yet said he deserved second place!! In spite of the mishaps he was better than Dambier, Klimkin, Lindemann, Lambiel. Am I correct? Joe

I haven't seen Lambiel or Lindemann. Unless Lindemann's pre has changed dramatically since last year, I can't see him being in the same league with the top five. I agree with the placement of Klimkin over Dambier in the LP, based on a rough CoP assessment that would have had Klimkin ahead of the Dambier by a small, statistically insignificant margin. However, even if the LP had been a draw between them, Klimkin was ahead of Dambier in the SP, and that should have held him.

Klimkin might have been marginally better than Plushenko in the LP as well, but Plushenko did have the SP lead, and I agree with Jaana that Plushenko's final placement seems correct, assuming that Lambiel shouldn't have been in 2nd in the LP.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Thnanks Jaana, diver chick and Hockeyfan - Your posts which I respect have just peaked me all the more to see the entire competition but, of course, we will be lucky to get 3 finalists on ABC.

Joe

 

[JonnyCoop]

[B And anyone heard that the French FS Fed protested against the Men's LP results as they think Dambier should have gotten a medal? [/B]

Given the alleged involvement of Didier Gailhaguet in the SLC scandal, seems to me the French federation is already, by association, in a bit of hot water as it is and they would probably do well to just keep their mouths zipped about anything for a couple more years yet.

Related note -- what hath Salt Lake City wrought? Whether or not the 2-golds-in-pairs decision was the right one or not is the subject of an entirely different post, but it has definitely set a precedent for protesting results that is getting out of hand.

 

[curious]

the most unfortunate judging happened at 4cc where to terrible performances by es and jb won first and second places.

 

[Evdokia]

Thnanks Jaana, diver chick and Hockeyfan - Your posts which I respect have just peaked me all the more to see the entire competition but, of course, we will be lucky to get 3 finalists on ABC.

Joe, if you'd like to see more than top 3 and PAL tapes work for you, let me now, and I can make you a copy of Eurosport coverage. (And another one of the pairs' event to prove, that this time P/T were exciting and not boring.)

 

[Kasey]

Yes, Curious, apparantly the judging at the 4CC was quite atrocious. But does the fact that it was worse there make poor judging at THIS event therefore acceptable? I think most people are complaining about poor judging in general, regardless of HOW extreme it may be.

Kasey

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe, if you'd like to see more than top 3 and PAL tapes work for you, let me now, and I can make you a copy of Eurosport coverage. (And another one of the pairs' event to prove, that this time P/T were exciting and not boring.)

Thanks you very much, Evdokia . I'd like to first see how many skters ABC will show. (At 4C, it ws just the top 3 men). I'd be happy to see the top 3 but for my own pleasure I would also like to see Lambiel and Griazev.

Joe

 

[shine]

My LP placement would have been

1. Joubert - no arguement with the two quads and a clean program.
2. Lambiel - landed the 4/3 combo, fall on the triple axel, but the most musical and brilliant choreography (I can't get over this program, it even tops last year's Chocolat IMO if that's even possible); amazing spins (did he get even faster ths year?) and sold the program like only Lambiel could. I think his other elements like linking steps, spins and musicality were enough to make up for the missed axel. His blades are silky smooth and his flow is just amazing. He has the rare ability to skate with such ease which makes the intricate moves appear effortless. I don't care that he skated in the second to last flight- he should have gotten 5.9s straight across the board for presentation. ROBBERY OF THE NIGHT.
3. Klimkin - very originial choreography and effective spins but he looked quite slow; fall on the flip and had no lutz (IIRC)
4. Dambier - had the quad sal and all the triples but doubled the loop. vvvvery simplisitic program, but really effective and well performed.
5. Plushenko - just too many mistakes. This is actually the first time I've ever seen him like this. He had fallen before, but those were occasional accidents. This time it just looked like it was beyond of his control. I'm not Plushenko's biggest fan, but it did hurt to see him fall like that. But quite surprisingly, this is the first time I've actually enjoyed this program. He took the ice stomping out of his straightline steps and it looked much more smoother and sharper IMO.

The general feeling was that it really could have gone either way between Klimkin, Dambier and Plushenko. Klimkin won with the slight margin due to his brilliant choreography and the quality of his elements. Dambier skated with the most command among the three but his program is just too simple (filled with only crossovers and spread eagles). As for Plush, despite the mistakes, his quality is just far beyond the other two and for the first time I thought this program looked brilliant (though still doesn't top Lambiel's intepretation of Magic Stradivarius, of course ).

 

[Matt]

OK, this is driving me crazy ! Does anyone have a downloadable link to Lambiel's FS or know where I can find one?

 

[Rgirl]

Haven't seen the competition, but just am just happy to see Joubert and Klimkin on the podium as I LOVE their skating. All judging questions aside, I'm happy Plush won the silver but I'm concerned for his knee. It's almost axiomatic for meniscal tears (Plush's injury) to feel relatively fine for three to six months and then increasingly degenerate the more time goes on. Plush had a very tough call. IIRC, Plush tore his meniscus in September, which is about seven months before Worlds, so the timing was right on the cusp. Will his knee hold out so at Worlds he can do three clean programs that include two LPs with at least one difficult quad combo? Nobody knows, of course. But from my experience treating athletes who continue to compete with meniscal tears, Worlds is going to be hell for Plush.

Also, Sokolova situation makes an interesting comparison to Plush's. She opted for surgery right after she was injured in early October and now seems to be regaining her form, ie, two 3/3s in her LP. I don't mean to second guess Plush; he probably got conflicting opinions even from physicians about whether to have surgery right away or wait. Also, the surgery could have kept Sokolova out for the entire year or worse. You never know. I just hate to see an extraordinary athlete like Plush risk doing further damage to his knee. But making decisions such as whether or not to have surgery and when is all part of the sport. Super congrats to Baboo and Klimkin; congrats and good luck to Plush.
Rgirl

 

[alina]

Although it was Plushenko´s worst performance of the last years he deserved the second place.
Klimkin has a fall, 2 step-outs, no lutz and was partically very slow.
Dambier had no fall but the most landings are not clean and the straightline footwork and between-steps have no high quality.
Lindemann doesn´t belong to this league - sorry to say this because he comes from my country.
I agree with some posters who said that at the end Plushenko was slow and had no speed in the Biellman. I noticed during the whole season that at the end of the lp he was going slow. I think the reason is his injury which didn´t allow him to work on his condition.
Joubert deserved the first place. He did amazing jumps but I have to admit that his program didn´t touch me.
Alina