Men Free Skates

[Skater Boy]

COP is a scoring system which can create winners that the average person or for that matter skating enthusiast cannot, will not or may not comprehend. Likewise, legitimately the 6.0 could create some unpopular winners. Booing any skater is inappropriate, rude, unsportsmanlike and uncalled for. Everyone deserves respects; we are a civilized society. If this continues and fortunately the Olympic committee doesn't base what should be an Olympic sport on these forums we could easily kill the sport of skating from ever being watch on tv or at the olympics. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but we aren't the judges. And these conspiracy theories now and for the future are ridculous. Let's not all get paranoid. I have seen some great analysis as to why Dai should win and why Chan should win. It's not like it wasn't possible either could win. It would equally be wrong that judges read these opinions and then start a bias against Patrick. Should Kostner be marked down and lose her title because of all the years many felt she was over marked, lucky or whatever? Should Evan be forced to give back his Olympic and or world title? Maybe Scott Hamilton should be given his title back because Brian Orser beat him in the short and long programs in the 1984 Olympics. Hamilton started making mistakes probably because of the pressure of Orser; did we hear boos? Opinions will vary for ever unless we are all lobotomized. I just hope we can all try to see how we all came to our own conclusions. Stop the fighting children! We saw some great skating.

 

[dorispulaski]

I sincerely doubt that whether fans boo or not will affect whether a sport is televised.

Soccer, for example, is widely televised, and it has plenty of booing, and obnoxious vuvuzuela's.

That doesn't mean that booing is good manners.

In fact, TV is more apt to cover sports where people care enough about the results to behave badly, or for that matter, cheer loudly for their favorites.

The worst thing for the sport would be if the audience did not care enough to jump to their feet and give a resounding standing ovation for any of the performances.

 

[Poodlepal]

Booing won't affect a sport's popularity, but predetermined winners will.
Patrick Chan's skating skills are so superior to everyone else's, according to the judges, that he will win. Period. Every time.
He skates clean, he breaks a record by a huge, record-breaking margin of points.
He makes a couple of little mistakes, he wins by a medium record-breaking number of points
He falls once, he wins by a healthy margin, but doesn't break a record.
Falls twice or makes two mistakes, he still wins.
Falls three times, he squeaks by.
Falls four times, maybe if the person in 2nd has the skate of his life, he may get the silver. Maybe. The only people who can be enjoying watching this is the people on the Fan Fest and Patrick's friends and family.

Yet we remember:
Michelle's dreams were dashed when she fell and Sarah/Irina did not.
Brian Orser lost to Brian Boitano because he put his foot down on a flip or something.
People like Kurt Browning and Todd Eldredge never get a medal at all because they fell or messed up on their big day. I'm sure they, as world champions, had excellent skating skills. But that didn't help them.

We want to sit on the edge of our seats hoping that our favorite skates clean so they will win. We want to see triumph and heartbreak. We don't want to see medals given to someone who has a lackluster performance but wins on transitions and edging. It might not be the wrong thing to do from a pure skating point of view, but it makes for a boring spectator sport.

 

[Boeing787]

Booing won't affect a sport's popularity, but predetermined winners will.
Patrick Chan's skating skills are so superior to everyone else's, according to the judges, that he will win. Period. Every time.
He skates clean, he breaks a record by a huge, record-breaking margin of points.
He makes a couple of little mistakes, he wins by a medium record-breaking number of points
He falls once, he wins by a healthy margin, but doesn't break a record.
Falls twice or makes two mistakes, he still wins.
Falls three times, he squeaks by.
Falls four times, maybe if the person in 2nd has the skate of his life, he may get the silver. Maybe. The only people who can be enjoying watching this is the people on the Fan Fest and Patrick's friends and family.

Yet we remember:
Michelle's dreams were dashed when she fell and Sarah/Irina did not.
Brian Orser lost to Brian Boitano because he put his foot down on a flip or something.
People like Kurt Browning and Todd Eldredge never get a medal at all because they fell or messed up on their big day. I'm sure they, as world champions, had excellent skating skills. But that didn't help them.

We want to sit on the edge of our seats hoping that our favorite skates clean so they will win. We want to see triumph and heartbreak. We don't want to see medals given to someone who has a lackluster performance but wins on transitions and edging. It might not be the wrong thing to do from a pure skating point of view, but it makes for a boring spectator sport.

When Roger Federer was in his prime, he was pretty much a predetermined winner.
He played very well and his rival happened to be in a bad day, he won by a huge, record-breaking margin of points.
He made a couple of little mistakes, he won by a medium record-breaking number of points
He was not in good form and made some stupid mistakes, he still managed to win.
He won 41 straight matches.

So why can't it be a figure skater?

Skating clean is good, but it shouldn't be the decisive factor. One should look at the whole package, that's the essence of COP. It's only fair to judge this way. This is how most evaluations are done nowadays.

 

[let`s talk]

For me, Takahashi's FS was boring. Why? It seems as though he has a limited repertoire of style and his programs all look same-ish, from facial expression, gesture to his costumes, even the color is almost always predominantly black in the last few years.

Sweetheart, are you sure you have a colour TV? La Strada, Mambo, Blues, etc. costumes have a little or nothing in common. Even his hair style depends on the costume he wears. The same facial expressions in different programs? Oh, that's easy to find- go on youtube and search for "Patrick Chan".

the closed minds

It's getting boring- to call everyone who disagrees with you some dumb close minds who knows nothing. It rather describes you well than you opponents since ending up with name calling is your best "weapon" left.

I'd bet Fusar-Poli/Margalio over Anisina/Peizerat was not especially welcomed by general audience, and Krylova/Ovsyannikov over Anissina/Peizerat in Helsninki-1999 was definitely not. I also remember a lot of booing then a flawed performance by Berezhnaya/Sikhaurlidze beat clean Shen/Zhao, but I am not sure if it was WC or not. Ditto for Totmyanina/Marinin vs. Shen/Zhao, at very least in Dortmund (S/Z won the LP, but were 4th in the SP, so they had to settle for silver, despite being quite magical that night).
Besides, I believe the reason for the booes was the fact that up till Patrick's skate Joubert was ranked third. The moment his marks were announced Joubert was kicked off the podium.

You know, the French but in fact an international audience was not some drunk football hooligans who occasionally dropped in to watch the FS Worlds. They realized that Brian lost the medal when they saw his scores and his name under Hanyu. Brian even had to show some gestures to cool people down. The booing that took place after Chan's skating was about the unfair judgement that put him on the 1st place. Your reference to pairs and dances is irrelevant. I think it was quite obvious that I was talking about Men's event, not about some diva-ish dances, especially of that era. But even then I doubt that skaters were actually booed on the podium. In Men's event Chan is the only up to now who is keeping that record. But you don't have to be upset much. He said that he didn't actually hear anything, just some noise in the background. What a good middle finger to the paying customers.

In Japan, Takahashi is certainly more famous than Hanyu and he's heavily favored by the JSF simply because he was the best shot at world/olympic medals.. But the international judges seem to have little trust in Takahashi anymore. The results at WC (almost perfect Takahashi <= Hanyu w/ one fall) has proven that the ISU is going to promote Hanyu thereafter. Even the JSF should know Takahashi's brand is falling in its value. They don't have much choice.

Pardon but your speculations don't correspond to the facts. Takahashi was more than generously marked at NHK by international judges (with no chanadian as a competitor there) where he got the record score in SP this season. Hanyu didn't actually have super succesful performances and he got partly lucky that he won Cup of Russia. His skating in LP at Worlds, and only there, was a surprise for everyone, but a fair and honestly expected surprised. JSF doesn't have any reasons to drop Dai as #1 of Japan due to a very simple explanation- Chan vs. Hanyu simple doesn't work for Japan favour at Olympics. Because in this case Chan obviously has an advantage over a J-teen. Basically, the only one who win in this case would be Chanada, and win in advance. That is not the scenario that JSF wants in Sochi. You know. In case you don't- the JSF official Yoshiko Kobayashi said: "Not only competing to win by himself but Daisuke is always trying to show his good performance for audience. He would not like them to see a fixed game at all. And also Daisuke knows that he will compete with Chan to give a boost to the figure skating world." (translation by Dai forum). I would add that the comment about "fixed game" is quite a hint, if not a snark for that indirect language.

I think that record is held by Trixie Schuba at the 1971 World Championships in Lyon.
Janet Lynn won the free skate, but was only fifth in figures and did not make the podium. The audience booed so loud and so long that eventually the French official (legendary pairs skater Pierre Brunet) had to tell Janet Lynn to go out onto the the ice and take a little bow and tell the crowd to stop booing.
(The upshot of this was, the ISU changed the scoring system. Just saying... )

Some kids around were not even in a project in 1971 so I can't possibly remember that incident. But it's indeed on youtube: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzvtjbcv-Cs#t=2m07 Nice to hear that the reason why the changed the system was make a better connection to the audience, and we know who did it better at Worlds-12. But I am not so optimistic about possible changes. What I know about David-oldboy, if he becomes the next ISU boss, it will be ISU=Skate Canada with the secrecy of judging in apply. What I don't get the most is what's the point. The system that they introduced after SLC is not working, the popularity of the sport is declining rapidly. And yet David&Co will definitely keep it till death. ISU officials remind me of directors of Soviet plants- the system doesn't work, it doesn't bring any profits but they stick with it just becuase they believe the system is best! Well, the next WOG host country definitly has some expertise in destroying Soviet economy plants. But knowing that they harness horses slowly but drive fast, I guess now they are still at the stage of thinking to move their butts to the stables or not.

 

[Mathman]

When Roger Federer was in his prime, he was pretty much a predetermined winner.
He played very well and his rival happened to be in a bad day, he won by a huge, record-breaking margin of points....

So why can't it be a figure skater?

If we are speaking about audience reactions, I think there is an important difference between figure skating and tennis. In tennis, we know why Roger Federer beat his opponent. We all saw Federer hit the ball over the net so hard that the other guy couldn't return it, or hit it out of bounds. Once in a while a skater serves up a "you can't touch this" ace, too. Then there is no question.

But in general, as Skater Boy says above, skaters win because of things that the fans can't see or appreciate.

Did Patrick display better "balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement" (a criterion for Skating Skills) than Daisuke? The audience can't tell, and indeed except for balance (don't lose it!) hardly know what this is talking about.

Was Patrick more "physically committed, sincere in emotion, and equal in comprehension of the music and in execution of all movement" than Daisuke? (This is P&E. I am not sure what "equal" means -- maybe this is only for pairs skating? Or do they mean that the skater is "equal to the task" demanded by the music?)

Was Patrick superior to Daisuke in Utilization of Personal and Public Space (CH)? Did Patrick, more so than Daisuke, maintain "the character and style of the music throughout the entire program by use of body and skating techniques to depict a mood, style, shape, or thematic idea as motivated by the structure of the music"? (INT). The typical audience member scarcely knows what any of this means. They cannot see, as the judges apparently can, why Patrick's skate deserves a 9 in these categories and Daisuke's an 8.5.

 

[Skater Boy]

I think that record is held by Trixie Schuba at the 1971 World Championships in Lyon.

Janet Lynn won the free skate, but was only fifth in figures and did not make the podium. The audience booed so loud and so long that eventually the French official (legendary pairs skater Pierre Brunet) had to tell Janet Lynn to go out onto the the ice and take a little bow and tell the crowd to stop booing.

(The upshot of this was, the ISU changed the scoring system. Just saying... )

When you think about it Trixie Schuba won fair and square that was the system back then. Booing was inappropriate. Just like arguably Katrina Witt should have lost her 1988 title; the scoring system and the way things were weighted allowed her to win over darkhorse Manley. There was probably more fodder for Manley to win as some felt Witt was overmarked in school figures and the short (should have been behind Debi Thomas - but again what do we know we aren't judges). However, there probably wasn't so much booing because Witt was pretty and popular, Liz wasn't she even lost her hair and she was so happy with silver skating h er best that it wasn't seen as a disappointment.

 

[Skater Boy]

Booing won't affect a sport's popularity, but predetermined winners will.
Patrick Chan's skating skills are so superior to everyone else's, according to the judges, that he will win. Period. Every time.
He skates clean, he breaks a record by a huge, record-breaking margin of points.
He makes a couple of little mistakes, he wins by a medium record-breaking number of points
He falls once, he wins by a healthy margin, but doesn't break a record.
Falls twice or makes two mistakes, he still wins.
Falls three times, he squeaks by.
Falls four times, maybe if the person in 2nd has the skate of his life, he may get the silver. Maybe. The only people who can be enjoying watching this is the people on the Fan Fest and Patrick's friends and family.

Yet we remember:
Michelle's dreams were dashed when she fell and Sarah/Irina did not.
Brian Orser lost to Brian Boitano because he put his foot down on a flip or something.
People like Kurt Browning and Todd Eldredge never get a medal at all because they fell or messed up on their big day. I'm sure they, as world champions, had excellent skating skills. But that didn't help them.

You are missing the point fans. Booing scores only suggest to the non or moderate caring audience that skating is not a sport. It discredits the sport. Sadly all the yelling, crying and screaming of Salt Lake was a large part for the downfall. Sad as it sounds the 6.0 system for all its fault was accepted somewhat but now no one knows even the diehards (cough cough look at the SKATING FORUMS) can't make sense of it. In a way we destroyed or destroy our sport. People patrick fell once at world's and considering Hanyu also fell and Daisuke had some shakey landings if not underrotations its clearly possible how Chan could win. I agree Dai in some people's mind could have been given gold too. heck I still think B and S 2002 Salt Lake win could have been legit throw out the French judge scandal - if you had Canada first in tech and russia Second but Russia first in arististry and Canada second - russia wins on the tie breaker. I think we the so called educated or caring skating fans need to keep our eyes open and minds.

When you think about it wow = the level of spins, footwork and quads by all these men - are we not really very blessed and rich. We have seen some excellent analysis - like I said before in a debate you may like the position of one competitior but the other competitor can win when you break down all the elements - you may not like the "color or style" but it could still score higher than the style or color you like simply because the elements were judged better even though not liked - sounds weird but it is very possible. That's in part how Kostner has done so well in the past when she appeared to not skate well (jump wise).

We want to sit on the edge of our seats hoping that our favorite skates clean so they will win. We want to see triumph and heartbreak. We don't want to see medals given to someone who has a lackluster performance but wins on transitions and edging. It might not be the wrong thing to do from a pure skating point of view, but it makes for a boring spectator sport.

I think you sadly missed my point. The booing, bickering, whining whatever about skating positions/placements only feeds fodder that skating is not a real sport especially to those who mock skating or the uneducated fan or audience member. COP is so complex and unfamiliar to the skating enthusiasts ie on the forums like here to the casual watcher it is hard to understand who should win. The uneducated skating watcher might think a clean double filled routine should win over a 7 triple two quad one fall routine. If skating enthusiasts are booing why should the average sport fan want to watch or think it is a legit sport.

Dai fans, Chan fans, whoever you like it will be hard to sway anyone. I used that analogy of a debate competition - you may prefer the position of one side but when you judge the actual competiton though you don't like the style or position of one team it could easily win based upon each area judged being scored higher even though you preferred the other team. In fact that is a sign probably there is fair judging when that can happen. Likewise I preferred Dai's costumes, music and style over Patrick. Chan may fall and Dai may stay on his feet but Dai may have several iffy landings and underrotations. Besides who said an extrovert style deserves more marks automatically over an introvert like Chan? doesn't say that in the rules?

I have seen some great analysis as to why or how Chan could win with the performance he had. I am sure we could argue for Dai or even Hanyu. I suppose if you are that mad about the results you could stop watch skating...sadly the more we scream and whine the more we may be killing the sport.

Even in Salt Lake I could see how Sale and Pelletier from Canada could be second. Back then artistry broke the tie. If you had Canada first on tech and Russia second but reversed for artistic impression well the winner of artistry would get gold.

Regardless, wow some great skating high level choreo, spins, footwork and quads. When did we have so much good skating and people pushign each other. Congrats to Dai and Patrick, Hanyu and nice come back Brian. Brezina your day will come

 

[Bluebonnet]

There are some priorities in order. For the competitions, the most important thing is to please the judges' eyes. For the exhibitions, the most important thing is to please the audience eyes.

 

[Boeing787]

If we are speaking about audience reactions, I think there is an important difference between figure skating and tennis. In tennis, we know why Roger Federer beat his opponent. We all saw Federer hit the ball over the net so hard that the other guy couldn't return it, or hit it out of bounds. Once in a while a skater serves up a "you can't touch this" ace, too. Then there is no question.

But in general, as Skater Boy says above, skaters win because of things that the fans can't see or appreciate.

Did Patrick display better "balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement" (a criterion for Skating Skills) than Daisuke? The audience can't tell, and indeed except for balance (don't lose it!) hardly know what this is talking about.

Was Patrick more "physically committed, sincere in emotion, and equal in comprehension of the music and in execution of all movement" than Daisuke? (This is P&E. I am not sure what "equal" means -- maybe this is only for pairs skating? Or do they mean that the skater is "equal to the task" demanded by the music?)

Was Patrick superior to Daisuke in Utilization of Personal and Public Space (CH)? Did Patrick, more so than Daisuke, maintain "the character and style of the music throughout the entire program by use of body and skating techniques to depict a mood, style, shape, or thematic idea as motivated by the structure of the music"? (INT). The typical audience member scarcely knows what any of this means. They cannot see, as the judges apparently can, why Patrick's skate deserves a 9 in these categories and Daisuke's an 8.5.

I know, that's the disadvantage of this sport. But what can you do? Change the rules to please the audience at the expense of undermining the progress of the sport? Or educate the public to understand the rules? Sorry, but I can't help but bring up the Bruno metaphor again, to the dismay of Let's Talk.

 

[pangtongfan]

What is funny is I was the one who noticed 18 months ago the judges were starting to give Chan atleast a 4 fall margin over his competitors. People laughed it off then. Now fast forward and for awhile now everyone has been agreeing with the premise that I started and are irate about it (other than the most dire and delusional of Chan fans).

 

[emdee]

Pangtongfan you are more realistic now with the 4 fall margin and I guess he is so good that Chan may have and may deserve a four fall margin.
When we thought you were were delusional was when your margin went up to 9 and 10 falls!

 

[pangtongfan]

I said 9 and 10 falls for Nationals. Which at Nationals is about right. He literally would have to fall 9 or 10 times to lose to Kevin Reynolds even skating perfectly (and in that particular case it isnt even much of an exagerration on reality vs the tiny jumping/slow/no style cheated quad kiddish adult and the rest of the Canadian men mugs, unlike the international scores).

 

[Becki]

I said 9 and 10 falls for Nationals. Which at Nationals is about right. He literally would have to fall 9 or 10 times to lose to Kevin Reynolds even skating perfectly (and in that particular case it isnt even much of an exagerration on reality vs the tiny jumping/slow/no style cheated quad kiddish adult and the rest of the Canadian men mugs, unlike the international scores).

True, I can see that happening. But if he falls 10 times, wouldn't that be -10 (probably a record too)? If Kevin stakes a clean and perfect SP and LP (fully rotated quads), and Patrick falls 10 times (SP and LP combined), it might come close. I think Patrick will still win given his higher PCs cushion.

 

[Skater Boy]

I don't want to make this personal, but I really think some people need a reality check. Patrick only won by a few points with one fall and the second place guy had a fall too. Forget allegiances, favouritism by us on the board but I think people are delusional to think if for example Patrick falls 10 times he would beat a quad filled, clean Reynolds. Patrick would almost have no points for jumps. I wonder if there was this much outrage when Katrina Witt was winning with her garbage triple performances, unpointed toes and such? Or what about Carolina when she was getting medals with error filled performances? Equally could be said about Sasha Cohen how her pcs and sometimes amazing goes she too can be argued as overmarked. And what about Evan a very strong argument can be made his pcs should not be near Lambiel, Buttle, Chan, Takahashi, Abbott even when clean. Of course these are opinions but they could be easily be argued.

 

[bekalc]

I don't want to make this personal, but I really think some people need a reality check. Patrick only won by a few points with one fall and the second place guy had a fall too. Forget allegiances, favouritism by us on the board but I think people are delusional to think if for example Patrick falls 10 times he would beat a quad filled, clean Reynolds. Patrick would almost have no points for jumps. I wonder if there was this much outrage when Katrina Witt was winning with her garbage triple performances, unpointed toes and such? Or what about Carolina when she was getting medals with error filled performances? Equally could be said about Sasha Cohen how her pcs and sometimes amazing goes she too can be argued as overmarked. And what about Evan a very strong argument can be made his pcs should not be near Lambiel, Buttle, Chan, Takahashi, Abbott even when clean. Of course these are opinions but they could be easily be argued.

Sigh what people are made about is Patrick's pcs vs Daisuke's pcs in that long program. Also a fall wasn't Chan's only error in that program, and he wasn't squecky cleani n the short. I don't have a problem with Patricks' win overall, but I DO have a problem with his pcs vs Daisuke's in the long. Daisuke out skated him in the long.

 

[let`s talk]

Sorry, but I can't help but bring up the Bruno metaphor again, to the dismay of Let's Talk.

Oh, my dear Boeing, you don't have to apologize. I am fine, so is my boy. I live in a fandom where I can enjoy my favourite sport and shows multiple times a year. My boy is a rock star here, he adored internationally, advertisers are greedy for him, he just collected 10 mil yen at one charity show, his name sells full houses, he is the one who will be remembered positively. Your boy already made a history as the most controversial champion in Men's, he is the target for mocking and boos, he is not rich, even at his home rink he couldn't collect the audience. Just you in front of your monitor. A zamboni is never a bruno. Keep it n mind, for a change.

 

[Becki]

Oh, my dear Boeing, you don't have to apologize. I am fine, so is my boy. I live in a fandom where I can enjoy my favourite sport and shows multiple times a year. My boy is a rock star here, he adored internationally, advertisers are greedy for him, he just collected 10 mil yen at one charity show, his name sells full houses, he is the one who will be remembered positively. Your boy already made a history as the most controversial champion in Men's, he is the target for mocking and boos, he is not rich, even at his home rink he couldn't collect the audience. Just you in front of your monitor. A zamboni is never a bruno. Keep it n mind, for a change.

Is your boy Daisuke? "His name sells full house", now that's the power of image! But I feel bad for Patrick, it's not his fault he wins with underwhelming performances :'( I heard he's a very nice and down-to-earth person on and off the ice. I have to disagree, at his home (I am assuming anywhere in Canada), he is easily the most polished and best skater among his cohort (or anybody really). He tends to put on his best performances at Nationals, and he is without a doubt, the clear winner. I can't say the same about his other performances....but at home, he's well loved

(I am a Daisuke fan!)

 

[deedee1]

Is your boy Daisuke? "His name sells full house", now that's the power of image!

Becki, yes. let's talk's boy must be Daisuke.
Shizuka, Dai and other skaters organized their 2nd charity ice show in Kobe this Tuesday and collected 10 million yen.

And I think let's talk meant, by saying 'his home rink', Patrick's home rink in Colorado Springs where he normally trains, and where there were, seemingly via TV, many empty seats during 4CC this year.

 

[Mathman]

^ Although you can't blame Patrick for the fact that figure skating in the U.S. is on life support these days.