Men's Free

[MarieM]

I watched you top three men skate, and let me tell you I can see why Weir would consider moving to Russia where at least he gets credit for what he's worth.
I don't know Bradley, but his skate on an internationnal level wouldn't have goten him more points than Weir let alone beat him. You have a class A skater (Weir) but Bradley still is a class B one so far.

These are not the only things I don't get at US nationals, but this is the big question as far as I'm concerned.

As for Evan scores on an internationnal level, considering he has always been held up in a very big way, I wouldn't be suprised he gets the same treatment at worlds.
Go Figure Skating

 

[Mathman]

About Ryan Bradley's skate, I think you might have appreciated it more in person. Even on TV, he rocked the house and had the audience out of their seats.

Personally I think it's inspiring when a "B skater" can have the performance of his life and beat a skater with greater talent but suffering an off night. Johnny's skate was an emotional downer Ryan's performance ended the event on a high note and sent the audience home happy.

Ryan may not be a threat at worlds, but this was his night! He will never forget it.

 

[gracefulswan]

with what evan put out there 2 nights ago, joubert better skate nearly perfectly. evan has mostly skated so well when it's crunch time in the long that i just don't see him crumbling at worlds...unless he gives it away in the short. takeshi has a hit and miss quad... but not a very reliable 4/3. then again, we've only seen a 4/3 once from evan so who knows if it's a fluke? we'll see soon enough... should be a good fight for gold between brian, evan, and takeshi. brian has already said that he'll be doing 3 quads in tokyo.... the other guys had better bring at least one 4/3 if he lands all of them...

 

[chuckm]

Let's face it: Worlds is in TOKYO, and home ice does have its advantage. There really is only one podium spot available, and there will be 5 or 6 men fighting for it: Joubert, Lysacek, Buttle, Weir and Sandhu, and possibly Verner as well.

 

[Spun Silver]

You're saying Takahashi and Oda have a lock on gold and silver? I really hope not - and doubt it. I expect a furious competition for all three medals.

 

[Arianne]

Tanith

Regarding Tanith Belbin:

Didn't Terry Gannon say that Evan and Tanith are dating? That's probably why they showed her so much. I must be really out of the loop. I assumed they may be dating, but I didn't know it was official!

Arianne

 

[jennylovskt]

I finally got chance to see Ryan's LP performance video. To be honest, I don't think Ryan will be at the same level as Johnny is on the international stage.

I don't like his skating style, the choreography, and the music at all (that is my personal preference, of course.) No doubt, he is a good entertainer. His performance and the circus-like music will be very suitable in a gala or COI, maybe. But it's definitely not a memorable one at the competition.

But as many people said before, Johnny might need to have this shock and wake-up call. So it's not a bad thing. Just like from 2003 Nationals to 2004 Nationals, Johnny climbed from the bottom of the humiliation to the top of the podium and shine through. I hope to see that again from Johnny.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Let's face it: Worlds is in TOKYO, and home ice does have its advantage. There really is only one podium spot available, and there will be 5 or 6 men fighting for it: Joubert, Lysacek, Buttle, Weir and Sandhu, and possibly Verner as well.

I would take Weir and Sandhu off that list, and add Lambiel if he shows. Even in his current state Lambiel still has a better shot at any international event he chooses to enter, injured or unmotivated, then either Sandhu and Weir at this point.

I agree with you about the Japanese men and what to expect. NHK event scoring says it all, and it can only go to more of an extreme at Worlds.

 

[slutskayafan21]

You're saying Takahashi and Oda have a lock on gold and silver? I really hope not - and doubt it. I expect a furious competition for all three medals.

If Oda and Takahashi skate their best, as they did at NHK, they will almost definitely win gold or silver, with Takahashi likely coming out on top. That wont neccessarily be the case other years, they would have to improve to be consolidated in those spots in future years in fact, but that is the case this year. If they skate as they did at NHK they will score even higher then they did at NHK at Worlds. Those scores will almost certainly then carry them to gold or silver, unless Joubert somehow not only does his 1 quad in the short, 3 in the long, but upps the base value in the long with added triple-triples and combinations to boot and does it all clean.

 

[waxel]

Does anyone else think Evan's probably hugely inflated score was a way to demoralize Weir as well? After all alot of are saying that we mutualy feel the USFSA wanted to make sure of this result from the start.

I questioned this myself. I think there could have been an over-inflation of Evan's marks in addition to harsh marks for Johnny as well. Either way, I think USFS is sending him a message.

Other posts have praised Johnny's programs this year. I disagree. I think he needs to send Marina Anissina packing. I did not find her choreography compelling and her insistence on a 'new style' obviously was a mistake. He needs to be who he is. Trying to create a new image on the ice clearly has stifled him this year ... well, something did anyway ... he just wasn't the same Johnny this season.

Evan deserved the title. No question. I just hope Johnny fights back.

 

[buminapark]

with what evan put out there 2 nights ago, joubert better skate nearly perfectly. evan has mostly skated so well when it's crunch time in the long that i just don't see him crumbling at worlds...unless he gives it away in the short. takeshi has a hit and miss quad... but not a very reliable 4/3. then again, we've only seen a 4/3 once from evan so who knows if it's a fluke? we'll see soon enough... should be a good fight for gold between brian, evan, and takeshi. brian has already said that he'll be doing 3 quads in tokyo.... the other guys had better bring at least one 4/3 if he lands all of them...

Takahashi has landed the quad consistently in all four competitions he's been in since NHK. I'd hardly call that "hit and miss." Not to mention, the quality of his quad just continues to improve. At Nationals it was much better than NHK/GPF, and Universiade even moreso. He's also training the 4/3 combo, and may decide to put it in for Worlds.

I agree with you about the Japanese men and what to expect. NHK event scoring says it all, and it can only go to more of an extreme at Worlds.

Many people think the scores at NHK were ridiculously inflated, and while I agree that they may have been a little generous in some areas, I don't believe they were entirely unreal, at least for Takahashi. He scored a 161 for his LP at the Universiade (only two points less than at NHK), which was not in Japan and did not seem to have inflated judging. (Oda only scored 148 for a clean LP there, though some of his levels were downgraded.) Based on that, I'd say 160+ is a reasonable score for a well-skated LP from him. (Not 170 like at Nationals though, because while the tech scores were reasonable, the PCS was through the roof and I highly doubt international judges will give him that much.)

I can see Lysacek possibly getting around 160 internationally for his LP with that jump layout as well, but definitely not 169. At Nationals, he received more than 11 points in positive GOE, while in international competition the most positive GOE he has ever received in an LP is around +5. (At least, looking at all his competitions from the Olympics onwards.) Seriously, +1 for his prerotated triple axels? In international competition he has always received zero GOE for clean triple axels. I believe the USFS judges tried to inflate his scores as much as possible in order to ensure that he won no matter what Weir did, and would be shocked if he scored that high internationally.

 

[SeaniBu]

I think Evan's chances are pretty good for 2 or 3rd, and possible do to extenuating circumstances for gold.

Regarding Tanith Belbin:

Didn't Terry Gannon say that Evan and Tanith are dating? That's probably why they showed her so much. I must be really out of the loop. I assumed they may be dating, but I didn't know it was official!

Arianne

What have I been saying Sorry but once I saw this picture, which was AGREED to be posted on Evans site, to anyone this should have been obvious. Well maybe some people are not familiar with a "phrase" regarding what is happening in this picture.

What are the riding? Could that be considered a "hobby" horse. And they are on it together. Not news to me. Coy and clever way to get the thought started. Yes it was speculation up to a point. There are a number of skaters that you just know something about even though they haven't come outright and say it to the word. Some of that is private until they decide, but this was obvious to me as other skaters are about other things they just don't say.

Plus there are "scientific" things like body language (eyes dilate, they'll show their hair and neck tipping the head and rubbed while talking to them etc...) when in sight of someone they love.

And thank you Arianne for bring up the REAL ONLY reason they showed her,:agree: again, not some other hidden meaning about other skaters - sorry but I am having a hard time with all of the fear about possible "fear" that is just getting ridiculous. Maybe I helped get it started, but I tried to stop it too. Now there has just been so much anti about anti I feel like it is just sad and hypocritical.

So AGAIN, they showed Tanith because she is dating Evan AND she is a gold medalist at the same Nats. Not any other "phobic" reason that is just as "phobic" as the phobia that some are being phobic about it being a phobia. They are still catering to what they think most people want to see. And if Johnny had a boyfriend in the crowd that the directors heard about, I GUARANTEE you would have see them UNLESS Johnny or the partner did not want to be seen. Even a majority of the ones with fears would want to see them, so they would have shown him if there was a "significant other" to show.

 

[temperboy28]

I can see Lysacek possibly getting around 160 internationally for his LP with that jump layout as well, but definitely not 169. At Nationals, he received more than 11 points in positive GOE, while in international competition the most positive GOE he has ever received in an LP is around +5. (At least, looking at all his competitions from the Olympics onwards.) Seriously, +1 for his prerotated triple axels? In international competition he has always received zero GOE for clean triple axels. I believe the USFS judges tried to inflate his scores as much as possible in order to ensure that he won no matter what Weir did, and would be shocked if he scored that high internationally.

Thank you for pointing out that he got +11 in GOE. For Evan that is a ridiculous amount, he never gets anywhere near that much GOE points internationaly, his jumps are actualy average quality, his spins and footwork are good but dont blow anybody anyway. I would say actualy now that you point that out 160 is too high an estimate for that same performance at Worlds. At Worlds he would get somewhere between +3-+5 total points in GOE, so that is 6-8 points down, then in PCS he would drop atleast another 5 points. So now Evan is 11-13 points down from his 169, that takes him to a 156-158 estimate at Worlds even for that particular performance. Of course anything less is even less then that. Boy is he in for a big surprise come Worlds in that case, thanks for breaking it down, his score was even more inflated then I realized it was now.

A full +1 for his awful triple axel technique as well? Yep sounds like it was rigged to me. Poor Johnny, no wonder he was crying afterwords, I am not a big Weir fan but that is not fair.

 

[temperboy28]

TB, I guess we were using the word "inflated" in two different ways. I was not arguing that Lysacek could beat Plushenko, or that the bench marks for national competitions are the same as for ISU competitions under the code of points.

I was just opposing the view of some posters on this thread that Lysacek's skate did not deserve the high marks that he received from the judges. I think it did.

If you think 160 is about right by international standards and that skaters can expect about a 6% "patriotic bonus" on top of that, then Lysacek's actual score of 169 is just right.

Fine, thanks for clarifying.

You see part of that is what I dont accept readily. I dont accept that at National competitions judges should be scoring any differently then International competitions, they should be scoring the same as if it were an international competition, and if they arent then they arent doing their job. Some of those same judges may be at Worlds, are they going to stick themselves out with such silly GOE and PCS for their home skaters there too?

It seems like even you admit a 169 is perhaps in another digit altogether higher then an international panel would award, so in that case the score isnt right in my eyes, since I dont accept that judges have the right to score differently at Nationals. National judges should be scoring just like an international, and if they often arent, they arent doing what they should be doing, and the scoring is inflated.

I could see Lysacek be going into a quadrennial he turns into the Blaine Wilson-top U.S mens gymnast in the 1997-2000 quadrennial, of figure skating for the U.S. In the U.S he gets scores and results that inflate his abilities to something stratospheric which they really arent, then will go to Worlds, not get anywhere near the same scores, of course, and whine to the media he is being jobbed since he isnt being treated like he was in the U.S. Wilson was stuck from 4th-7th all around in World events, despite dominating top international gymnasts at events like the American Cup, and getting monster scores at U.S Nationals, he was always brought down to earth from that at Worlds and became a jaded figure. I hope that is not the case but it is what I can see the start of for Lysacek now.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

As for Evan scores on an internationnal level, considering he has always been held up in a very big way, I wouldn't be suprised he gets the same treatment at worlds.
Go Figure Skating

It's not your opinion that I question. It's that you do not explain your premise. Why would European and Asian judges hold up Evan at Worlds, not to mention another N.American country with a top rated contender at Worlds?

It may happen that there will be only 1 American judge and he may be a Johnny fan. How will that work in your take on Evan?

Joe

 

[buminapark]

Thank you for pointing out that he got +11 in GOE. For Evan that is a ridiculous amount, he never gets anywhere near that much GOE points internationaly, his jumps are actualy average quality, his spins and footwork are good but dont blow anybody anyway.

Exactly. For Evan to get so much positive GOE is just unreal. In addition to the inflated jump GOEs, he also received four +3's for his straightline step sequence at Nationals. I can't ever recall a skater receiving that many +3's across different elements in international competition, much less for a single element.

I would say actualy now that you point that out 160 is too high an estimate for that same performance at Worlds. At Worlds he would get somewhere between +3-+5 total points in GOE, so that is 6-8 points down, then in PCS he would drop atleast another 5 points. So now Evan is 11-13 points down from his 169, that takes him to a 156-158 estimate at Worlds even for that particular performance.

I would like to believe that his PCS will drop at Worlds because he really does not deserve a 78 in that either, but high TES tends to bring up PCS too, and all the top skaters who can land a quad right now receive 77+ PCS whether they truly deserve it or not. So it's possible that Evan could get that too if he lands a quad.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Just curious to find out if you guys would judge Griazev, van der Perren, Joubert, at their respective Nationals the same way?

Joe

 

[jennylovskt]

Look at what USFSA has done? Did they do Evan a favor? Evan is supposed to enjoy his victory. Now he has this inflated score shadowed it.

It was so obvious without looking at the protocol. Evan's skill has never surpassed Plushenko, Lambiel, Joubert, and Takahashi (Takahashi's 170 was ridiculous, too.) Now the protocol confirmed the suspicion. If Evan could get this high mark at the Worlds, I will cease on this subject.

Ryan Bradley was another one whom I think would not get the same recognition internationally as he did in US. And I think he should not get it.

People may say that because Johnny didn't get the gold, so Evan and Ryan got the blame. I think it's not. Of course, it was heartbreaking to see Johnny lose what might be his. But it was Johnny himself got to be blamed for, not anyone else. Wish Johnny realize this, and overcome the demon inside of him.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Exactly. For Evan to get so much positive GOE is just unreal. In addition to the inflated jump GOEs, he also received four +3's for his straightline step sequence at Nationals. I can't ever recall a skater receiving that many +3's across different elements in international competition, much less for a single element.

I would like to believe that his PCS will drop at Worlds because he really does not deserve a 78 in that either, but high TES tends to bring up PCS too, and all the top skaters who can land a quad right now receive 77+ PCS whether they truly deserve it or not. So it's possible that Evan could get that too if he lands a quad.

I dont think landing a quad raises your PCS at all. At Worlds Evan landed a quad, but then stumbled out of the triple toe after it, but the quad was still clean or almost clean, the rest of his skate was squeeky clean. He still got a 73 for PCS as opposed to the 74+ his quadless program got at the Olympics. Plushenko would still get his PCS doing no quads I bet, Lambiel and Joubert too.


Lots of skaters do quads clean and get PCS below 60 in the long. +3s on GOE for his straight line footwork sequence?
:chorus: :chorus: I cant believe anybody is even debating that the score was inflated anymore now that more of the detail is coming out.

 

[dutchherder]

I think the skaters know full well that their scores are inflated at Nats, but just enjoy seeing those big numbers.