Mens FS

[Mathman]

Hi DG - I am not arguing about the scores on spins. I am questioning what level they are. I want to know what Level 4 spins Plush gets as a skater who is known for weak spins. It just isn't sour grapes. I think anyone with a sense of figure skating knows Plush is not the greatest spinner.

Joe, that's the whole thing about the New Judging System. The levels have nothing to do with the quality of the spin. You can be the world's crumbiest spinner and still get a level 4. The only thing that counts in determining the level is how many changes of edges and changes of position you do.

Plushenko got level 4s on both of his "CCoSp" spins. (Change/combination).

This is one of the big criticisms of the NJS. A dog on skates can get a level four if he raises his leg four times.

MM

 

[Vash01]

Very ridiculous since everyone know the new system was pushed by the CANADIANS after the OLys Fiasco to help their skaters compete with the best jumpers lol!

ITA. The Canadians have benefitted from it more than anyone else. Buttle has won competitions after making as many as 4 mistakes on jumps, or falling twice in the LP, and I don't recall seeing him land a quad. Under the 6.0 system he would not have placed in the top 5. As someone pointed out, Sandhu was able to come from behind to win only because of COP. Under the 6.0 system he would have been buried after the SP.

The reason Irina has done so well under the COP system is that she studied the rules and used her strengths to get more points under the new system. It does not mean the system was tailored for her. She was just smarter than many other skaters.

From what I have read this is not the first time the rules were changed in FS (of course COP is a HUGE change from 6.0), because Russians were winning all the time. No matter what rules are used, they still continue to win. OK, next step is to say the judges are corrupt if Russians win. I have no anser for that.

BTW Plushenko's skating skills and command of the ice are far superior to Lambiel. I agree that Lambiel has better spins, but the levels are defined in the rule book and Lambiel has all the freedom to upgrade his.

Vash

 

[antmanb]

BTW Plushenko's skating skills and command of the ice are far superior to Lambiel. I agree that Lambiel has better spins, but the levels are defined in the rule book and Lambiel has all the freedom to upgrade his.

Vash

While i agree that Pluschenko's command of the ice is unrivalled by any of the current crop of skaters i wouldn't say his basic skating skills are better than Lambiels. His edging is not even close to Lambiels or Buttle's, Sandhu's and probably Weir. I think that Lambiel has better step sequences as well, not necessarily CoP higher marks garnering but certainly better from a bsaic skating skills point of view.

Pluschenko always seems off balance and rushed and has bad extension and posture on his MIF. The only position where he exhibits great extension, line andposture is the landing position. Looking at Pluschenko's Cirscular step sequence - he breaks at the waste for the majority of the step sequence, he has rounded shoulders and doesn't hold an edge long enough to extend his free leg.

Even setting up his jumps with three turn entrances he doesn't fully extend his free leg.

An awesome competitor he is. The best jumper in the world he is. Probably the only man capable of putting two clean back to back performances out on the ice with quads. Does he deserve his wins? Absolutely. do i think he will win in Torino? Absolutely and i think he'll win by an unprecedented margin and he will absolutely deserve the win. Do i think he has good basic skating skills? Not as good as anyone else in the top 10.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

An awesome competitor he is. The best jumper in the world he is. Probably the only man capable of putting two clean back to back performances out on the ice with quads. Does he deserve his wins? Absolutely. do i think he will win in Torino? Absolutely and i think he'll win by an unprecedented margin and he will absolutely deserve the win. Do i think he has good basic skating skills? Not as good as anyone else in the top 10.Ant

ITA. He is a jumper, and the best at the moment. His spins are weak regardless of the level he imposes on them. No one is saying anything about his frontrunner position. He is expected to win and I am sure he will. But he is not the perfect skater. Others with far less jumping ability are better all round skaters, imo.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Plushenko got level 4s on both of his "CCoSp" spins. (Change/combination).

This is one of the big criticisms of the NJS. A dog on skates can get a level four if he raises his leg four times.

MM

Thanks MM. I shall look at this Change Combo spin and see if it is any more difficult that other skaters. I hope they do not call the sitspin a sitspin if he only sticks out his fanny and slightly bends the skating leg.

This level 4 business really has to be looked at. The whole is the sum of its parts and if one of the parts are not perfect well, the whole is not a whole.

I don't want to hear about attempts. That's another joke in this girlie sport.

Joe

 

[curious]

ITA. He is a jumper, and the best at the moment. His spins are weak regardless of the level he imposes on them. No one is saying anything about his frontrunner position. He is expected to win and I am sure he will. But he is not the perfect skater. Others with far less jumping ability are better all round skaters, imo.

Joe

Not perfect but very close lol! Too bad he is not american

 

[Vash01]

Plushenko, like Kwan, belongs to another era- the 6.0 era. He worked on jumps and consistency, and those are his trademarks. The younger skaters have worked on other things. Give Plushenko credit for not disappearing when the COP took over the scoring. He is still the top skater and a great performer. I am not convinced however that he can handle the Olympic pressure. He did not, in 2002. It will be tough for anyone to handle that kind of pressure. Others may have an easier time at the Olympics simply because all focus will be on Plushenko.

Vash

 

[antmanb]

Plushenko, like Kwan, belongs to another era- the 6.0 era. He worked on jumps and consistency, and those are his trademarks. The younger skaters have worked on other things. Give Plushenko credit for not disappearing when the COP took over the scoring. He is still the top skater and a great performer. I am not convinced however that he can handle the Olympic pressure. He did not, in 2002. It will be tough for anyone to handle that kind of pressure. Others may have an easier time at the Olympics simply because all focus will be on Plushenko.

Vash

But the Olympics pressure in SLC was all about Yags - he was the golden boy. On consistency they were pretty even but on presentation Yags had it all over Plushy. Plushy knew that that he HAD to go clean to be in with a chance and likely see a mistake from Yags in order to win, that caused the mistake in short. He also knew the only possible area he might have Yags beat was if he managed to complete the 4/3/3...too much pressure.

This time around he knows that he can make mistakes and still be ahead of his competitors since none of them has ever laid down an 8 triple program with one or two quads - something Pluschenko is not only very capable of but has doen sevral times in the past. A fall in the short on the quad like in SLC i think would still leave him in first place given everyone else's jump problems.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Plushenko, like Kwan, belongs to another era- the 6.0 era. He worked on jumps and consistency, and those are his trademarks. The younger skaters have worked on other things. Give Plushenko credit for not disappearing when the COP took over the scoring. He is still the top skater and a great performer. I am not convinced however that he can handle the Olympic pressure. He did not, in 2002. It will be tough for anyone to handle that kind of pressure. Others may have an easier time at the Olympics simply because all focus will be on Plushenko.

Vash

C'mon Vash - No one including me would ever knock his trademarks., which includes his gift to selling it to the audience (and Judges). He is a shoo-in for lst place and if I were there I would join the applause.

The subject matter was about his spins and I contend his spins are no more than ordinary.

As for Pressure or Nerves as I would call it. Every skater will have these quite common feelings It's only human.

Joe

 

[Zanzibar]

I don't think there is nearly as much pressure on Plushenko as in 2002. He's proven himself over and over and over again since then racking up Euro and World titles. Plus, he's got an Olympic silver medal in the bag from four years ago which is nothing to sneeze at. He's a major star in Russia, show and tour offers regularly coming in, etc., etc. Of course, his homeland would be disappointed in him if he could not keep the tradition going of a Russian man winning the singles event -but overall - he seems about 1,000 times more relaxed and content 'in his own skin' than he did four years ago as a teenager.

In 2002 the pressure was to beat Yagudin - it was a contest really only between two men. Right now it's just Plush against himself. I adore Brian, I'm crazy about Johnny, and Lambiel really impresses me....but if Plushenko is reasonably healthy and skates reasonably clean...I just don't see how anyone is going to beat him. I mean - he had a SIXTEEN point lead at Euros! It wasn't even close. And under COP - even if he blows his opening SP jump ala Salt Lake, he can still 'recover' in the free.

Any of those men on the top of the podium would be fine with me - but it would be very surprising - no - shocking - if it's anyone but Plushenko.

 

[Vash01]

While i agree that Pluschenko's command of the ice is unrivalled by any of the current crop of skaters i wouldn't say his basic skating skills are better than Lambiels. His edging is not even close to Lambiels or Buttle's, Sandhu's and probably Weir. I think that Lambiel has better step sequences as well, not necessarily CoP higher marks garnering but certainly better from a bsaic skating skills point of view.

Pluschenko always seems off balance and rushed and has bad extension and posture on his MIF. The only position where he exhibits great extension, line andposture is the landing position. Looking at Pluschenko's Cirscular step sequence - he breaks at the waste for the majority of the step sequence, he has rounded shoulders and doesn't hold an edge long enough to extend his free leg.

Even setting up his jumps with three turn entrances he doesn't fully extend his free leg.

Do i think he has good basic skating skills? Not as good as anyone else in the top 10.

Ant

If his edging was as bad as you describe (not even in the top 10) he would not have been able to get the power and speed in his skating. I am not talking about the turns or other transitions into jumps; I am talking about basic skating. Buttle and Weir certainly have more transitions, and Buttle has soft edges; Plushenko has more consistency and command of the ice. I don't really care if he fully extends his leg to get into a jump. On the triple flip he does not.The point is he consistently lands the jumps and some others don't. I cannot imagine someone with a poor jump technique have that kind of consistency.

Vash

 

[Vitacus]

Sorry, but what's with the constant bitching about Plush lately :scowl: I'ts getting tiring.

So, what you're all saying is that Plush has poor skating skills (like all Russians)? Basically he's crap in the Program Components and is not worthy of anything above 5's in PC's? He's a jumping bean because that's the only thing he's good at? Did I understand this correctly?

:sheesh:

 

[Mafke]

Sorry, but what's with the constant bitching about Plush lately :scowl: I'ts getting tiring.
So, what you're all saying is that Plush has poor skating skills (like all Russians)? Basically he's crap in the Program Components and is not worthy of anything above 5's in PC's? He's a jumping bean because that's the only thing he's good at? Did I understand this correctly?

No. But Plushenko does have uneven skills; unparalelled jumping ability (which no one has ever questioned as far as I know), great committment (he delivers his programs with a lot of authority and presence). On the other hand his footwork is more show than substance (antmanb gives a pretty detailed description of why) and his spins are at best kind of mediocre (not great speed, no real sitspin etc.)

God never gave anyone everything. Appreciating Plushenko's (considerable and undeniable) strengths does not mean his weakness don't exist. But judges seem to be giving him uniform high marks even where he's clearly not stronger than the rest of the field, as in spining (I've never seen a detailed analysis of his spins that says they're especially good).

And, for me at least, the Russian element doesn't enter into it. I'm not a Plushenko fan but Klimkin is my favorite male skater. Similarly, I find the (mostly) technically solid TT/MM boring, but think Petrova/Tikhonov are the overall best pair skaters in the world (as in having the best balanced pairs skills and in skating _as_ a pair, TT/MM still seem kind of like two very skilled skaters who haven't been together very long).

Finally, being the undisputed number one means people are going to criticize you more partly because they _expect_ more from a clear front runner than they do from one of several podium contenders.

 

[Vitacus]

I understand you would want to pick him apart and discuss (in lengt for x pages) Plush's weaknesses, but what of the others? Beside, what makes a common skating fan credible anyway? It's not like skating fans are ever biased.

If you where to discuss Buttle's, Weir's and Lambiel's weaknesses too (in length for x pages), then that would certainly make a better case were credability is concerned, imho. At least it would be objective.

I assume everyone here has actually seen the competition?

 

[antmanb]

If his edging was as bad as you describe (not even in the top 10) he would not have been able to get the power and speed in his skating. I am not talking about the turns or other transitions into jumps; I am talking about basic skating. Buttle and Weir certainly have more transitions, and Buttle has soft edges; Plushenko has more consistency and command of the ice. I don't really care if he fully extends his leg to get into a jump. On the triple flip he does not.The point is he consistently lands the jumps and some others don't. I cannot imagine someone with a poor jump technique have that kind of consistency.

Vash

There are two ways to generate power in figure skating - one is pure muscle and force from the skater and the other is to use the edges, use the power from teh inherent lean on any edge. The best edgers in the world are usually ice dancers, watching ice dancers just stroke - you see that they increase their speed at the top of edge lobe they trace because they know what they're doing with their edges. Pluschenko (and any skater) can be powerful and fast and not be good at edging.

You managed to leave out all of the compliments from my post about pluschenko. I never said he has bad jump technique - quite the opposite - i said eh is the best jumper in the world, the best command on the ice. He's deserved every win he's had and when (and i don't think its if i'm sure he'll pull it all out for te olympics) he stands at the top of the Olympic podium i'm sure he will ahve deserved that win too.

Basic skating skills to me means stroknig edging and turning. Jump technique is another matter and i think Plushy has the best. Basic skating, not at all - the basic three things drilled into you from the earliest age are Knee bend (Plushy does this well), posture (Plushy is sloppy) and extension (Plushy only extends on a jump landing and not suring any MIF or footwork). For me his basic skating is not as goood as anyone else in the top 10 ni the world.

Ant

 

[Mafke]

Of course, critical skate fans (by which I mean those with more technical knowledge a category I don't include myself in) can pick apart the weaknesses of _any_ skaters for as long as someone will read/listen to them.

Liking or not liking the skater as a person or skater has nothing to do with that. The top skaters are going to get more of it and when a skater is as dominant as Plushenko is the technical picking apart is going to be that much more intense. Those who enjoy watching skating but aren't so interested in picky technical aspects should probably just avoid such discussions.

As for Euros LP I saw it on Eurosport and thought EP clearly won, but looked tired (being sick will do that) and that the margin was a little high. This is also a weakness of COP. Most rational observers would assume that Plushenko gets (and should get) less points for his spins than Lambiel does and would be surprised that that isn't the case.

Of course Lambiel (who I generally enjoy more than EP) has weaknesses, bad 3ax (antmanb, again, has interesting speculation on why) a tendency to lose concentration (those slips in final footwork at Euros) and an overall tendency towards juniorish presentation (I didn't like him for years because his costumes all looked like they belong on 12 year olds).

 

[antmanb]

Sorry, but what's with the constant bitching about Plush lately :scowl: I'ts getting tiring.

So, what you're all saying is that Plush has poor skating skills (like all Russians)? Basically he's crap in the Program Components and is not worthy of anything above 5's in PC's? He's a jumping bean because that's the only thing he's good at? Did I understand this correctly?

:sheesh:

No you totally misunderstood and put words in everyone's mouths!!!

Allow me to explain: he doesn't have poor skating skill. He has very good skating skills. He is the best jumper in the world with the best jump technique...he's been landing quads since he was what 14 years old and he's still skating...he must be doing somethign right in training. For me his spinning is not as good as his jumping, he doesn't get all the way down in his sitspin but regardless he's mad ea huge effort with them for CoP and he gets my praises for that. I feel that there are many male skaters out there who spin better than him though.

In terms of his footwork, i personally do not feel that he exhibits the necessary skating and edging skills during his footwork sequences which are always very rushed, look sloppy and don't hold edge for long enough to show that he can hold them and generate power from them. He generates speed in his step sequences by jumping from toe pick to toe pick and and my generally jumping around alot. Even watching him do a simple turn like in teh Gran Lancia gala, he does not extend his free leg and looks to be off balance.

This is a small criticism when compare to the way he puts teh complete package together. No skater in teh world has it ALL...it would be somewhat superhuman for someone to have it all. For me Yags came close though his spinning was also not the best. Kwan in her peak also cam e very close but again her spins were not the best.

Its very strange the comment you made abotu Russians having bad technique because i've always thought the russians have the best technique - look at the pairs - its almost common place for russian pairs to have the purest stroking and the best unison...like there's something in the water!!! Pairs outside of Russia never seem to get the same unison.

As to the PCSthere are five areas on the PCS and i'll comment on where i would put plushy if i were a judge (and remember that these in theory represent the propoertion of time the skater spent doing these during the performance):

Skating skills: in the 7s
Transitions/linking footwork: in the 6s
Performance execution: In the 9s (he's style is not my cup of tea but he sells the heck out of every program)
Choreography composition: 7-8 (again i don't like his choreography but appreciate that other do)
Interpretation: 6-7 (because i don't he uses his music very well and doesn't show musicality).

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I understand you would want to pick him apart and discuss (in lengt for x pages) Plush's weaknesses, but what of the others? Beside, what makes a common skating fan credible anyway? It's not like skating fans are ever biased.

If you where to discuss Buttle's, Weir's and Lambiel's weaknesses too (in length for x pages), then that would certainly make a better case were credability is concerned, imho. At least it would be objective.

I assume everyone here has actually seen the competition?

I have indeed seen the competition and posted my thoughts on the top men in another forum...i'm not looking for credibilty i am passing an opinion if you want me to re-post my thoughts here that i put on rec: sport.skating.ice.figure for a "balance" then i can do, or please feel free to go there and read my review.

Ant

 

[Vitacus]

Sorry if I came out sounding like sour grapes here but there are other top skaters to discuss, such as Lambiel, Weir, Buttle, Joubert, Sandhu etc. It seems everyone is so caught up with Plush's weaknesses when others have bad cases of bad postures, sloppy/unfinished moves, rushed elements, juniourish choreo, travelling spins, and so on and so forth. They all have weaknesses in their skating, both in the TE and PC department, just as they all have strengths. I would be interested in hearing yours and others opinions on the other top male skaters weaknesses, if anyone is up for the task?

Sorry if this is OT.

 

[Vitacus]

I have indeed seen the competition and posted my thoughts on the top men in another forum...i'm not looking for credibilty i am passing an opinion if you want me to re-post my thoughts here that i put on rec: sport.skating.ice.figure for a "balance" then i can do, or please feel free to go there and read my review.

I'll go there and read you're reviews, thank you! Sorry if I offended you, Ant, or anyone else, ok?

One question: where exactly am I suppose to look for your posts about the other top skaters on that site? I'm there but don't know where to look. Could you give me the link? :scratch: