RGirl, a great big "right back attcha" hi......glad to see you back. As for a triple-triple for the coming season.........I guess we'll wait and see what Michelle has planned. Her skating is so "fine", she could be skating on "flats" and still wow the crowd..........42
Michelle and that elusive 3/3
- Thread starter Excidra2001
- Start date
Hi, rgirl. wellcome back. I've missed your long posts.
ITA with your first back post. And, IMO, had CoP used in 2003 worlds, even Elena did 2 3/3 in her LP, Michelle would still come ahead of her. And we weren't hear many Elena wuz robbered. The points will speek for itself.
ITA with your first back post. And, IMO, had CoP used in 2003 worlds, even Elena did 2 3/3 in her LP, Michelle would still come ahead of her. And we weren't hear many Elena wuz robbered. The points will speek for itself.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Hi Rgirl.
You have been missed as you were during your hiatus last summer. I haven't been visiting every day either. Hope you did ok in the Blackout.
Back on Topic. A lot of people are citing the 3-3 and the quads of the up-and-comers. Will they make a difference? Too early to tell. A lot of them are just entering puberty - what happens with their bodies could make a difference. True - many of them are Asians who generally aren't overly endowed, but it does happen. Also, as Rgirl and others have mentioned, there is the injury factor. So - since no one has proven a consistent 3-3, artistry and consistency, I think MK does not have to have the 3-3 this year. The overall quality of her skills and presentation should not be ignored because skating is not just about jumping - as much as some would like it to be.
Should be training a 3-3? Most definitely - just in case one of the other contenders ups their consistency and artistry, she's gotta be ready. It doesn't have to be a difficult one - nothing wrong with 3T-3T.
Will she need one if she goes to Olys? Again, she's probably gonna have to up the ante since it's a lot harder to improve in other areas. Even judges get tired of seeing the same.
Seems a bit wishy washy, but that's the way I see it.
You have been missed as you were during your hiatus last summer. I haven't been visiting every day either. Hope you did ok in the Blackout.
Back on Topic. A lot of people are citing the 3-3 and the quads of the up-and-comers. Will they make a difference? Too early to tell. A lot of them are just entering puberty - what happens with their bodies could make a difference. True - many of them are Asians who generally aren't overly endowed, but it does happen. Also, as Rgirl and others have mentioned, there is the injury factor. So - since no one has proven a consistent 3-3, artistry and consistency, I think MK does not have to have the 3-3 this year. The overall quality of her skills and presentation should not be ignored because skating is not just about jumping - as much as some would like it to be.
Should be training a 3-3? Most definitely - just in case one of the other contenders ups their consistency and artistry, she's gotta be ready. It doesn't have to be a difficult one - nothing wrong with 3T-3T.
Will she need one if she goes to Olys? Again, she's probably gonna have to up the ante since it's a lot harder to improve in other areas. Even judges get tired of seeing the same.
Seems a bit wishy washy, but that's the way I see it.
HI! Mzheng. Didn't mean to leave you out. Yes, I'm sure a lot of people "missed" my pithy posts
Show, Thanks for the "back atcha." Our neighborhood was lucky in general as was I during what is now being called the blog. I was home when it happened, not on a subway, thank goodness. Those poor people. But the blog did mess up the great shot of George Clooney's backside in the "Solaris" DVD I was watching at the time. Uh, what does this have to do with Michelle and her 3/3? With her new training regimen, Michelle looks about as buff as Clooney, but of course in a feminine way. And perhaps now that she's had a year of that fabulous off-ice training, doing a 3/3 will be more easily achieved without pain.
Heyang, From what I read, it was practicing the 3t/3t last hear that was giving Michelle hip pain so she stopped -- wisely so, IMO. But see above re possible impact of off-ice training.
However, in general, I think that even with the best on and off ice training in the world, 3/3s are going to continue to cause skaters to have serious hip injuries at younger and younger ages. The only thing I can see helping is the hinged skate boot. I think either the ISU or a major federation, like the USFSA, should get together with the American College of Sports Medicine and get some reliable data on hip injuries in skaters relative to 3/3s for ladies and 4/3s and 4/3/2s for men. I think they should also do more studies on the hinged skate boot. For me it's not about too much jumping in figure skating, although I think a seven-triple program should be the maximum and I much prefer programs with a balance of elements. Rather, it's about the health, quality of life, and longevity of skaters sustaining serious hip injuries because of outdated equipment (skate boots) being used to do jump combos that destroy hips. People with hip injuries, even if they've had good hip replacement surgery, still die sooner on average than those who don't have such injuries. Of course skating is a tough sport and injuries are inevitable. But I think the ISU and federations should be doing everything they can to ensure the health and safety of skaters. To me, it's along the lines of child abuse to have 12-13-year-old skaters doing 3/3s and 4/3s on boots that allow so much of the landing force to be focused on the hip. Skaters want to push the envelope of what is physically possible and I'm all for it, but please, it's the duty of the ISU and federations to see that skaters have the right equipment with which to do this and to instruct coaches in the destructiveness of overtraining jumps, especially multirotational combination jumps. Yoshie Onda is an unfortunate example. Like Tara, she loved to jump and is a natural jumper, yet she didn't even make it to worlds in her first year on the senior circuit where she was a contender.
Will it take a contingent of hip injured skaters to do a "limp" demonstration at next year's Worlds to get the ISU and big federations to take notice? I'm afraid it may.
Rgirl
Show, Thanks for the "back atcha." Our neighborhood was lucky in general as was I during what is now being called the blog. I was home when it happened, not on a subway, thank goodness. Those poor people. But the blog did mess up the great shot of George Clooney's backside in the "Solaris" DVD I was watching at the time. Uh, what does this have to do with Michelle and her 3/3? With her new training regimen, Michelle looks about as buff as Clooney, but of course in a feminine way. And perhaps now that she's had a year of that fabulous off-ice training, doing a 3/3 will be more easily achieved without pain.
Heyang, From what I read, it was practicing the 3t/3t last hear that was giving Michelle hip pain so she stopped -- wisely so, IMO. But see above re possible impact of off-ice training.
However, in general, I think that even with the best on and off ice training in the world, 3/3s are going to continue to cause skaters to have serious hip injuries at younger and younger ages. The only thing I can see helping is the hinged skate boot. I think either the ISU or a major federation, like the USFSA, should get together with the American College of Sports Medicine and get some reliable data on hip injuries in skaters relative to 3/3s for ladies and 4/3s and 4/3/2s for men. I think they should also do more studies on the hinged skate boot. For me it's not about too much jumping in figure skating, although I think a seven-triple program should be the maximum and I much prefer programs with a balance of elements. Rather, it's about the health, quality of life, and longevity of skaters sustaining serious hip injuries because of outdated equipment (skate boots) being used to do jump combos that destroy hips. People with hip injuries, even if they've had good hip replacement surgery, still die sooner on average than those who don't have such injuries. Of course skating is a tough sport and injuries are inevitable. But I think the ISU and federations should be doing everything they can to ensure the health and safety of skaters. To me, it's along the lines of child abuse to have 12-13-year-old skaters doing 3/3s and 4/3s on boots that allow so much of the landing force to be focused on the hip. Skaters want to push the envelope of what is physically possible and I'm all for it, but please, it's the duty of the ISU and federations to see that skaters have the right equipment with which to do this and to instruct coaches in the destructiveness of overtraining jumps, especially multirotational combination jumps. Yoshie Onda is an unfortunate example. Like Tara, she loved to jump and is a natural jumper, yet she didn't even make it to worlds in her first year on the senior circuit where she was a contender.
Will it take a contingent of hip injured skaters to do a "limp" demonstration at next year's Worlds to get the ISU and big federations to take notice? I'm afraid it may.
Rgirl
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
It will be nice to watch the "seasoned ladies" skate their routines. they may not jump themselves into a frenzy but, oh, how beautifully, they will flow. Like the "old babes" in ballet, I really enjoy the same in figure skating.
Come on Michelle, Irina, Elena, Jen Robinson, Fumie.
Joe
Come on Michelle, Irina, Elena, Jen Robinson, Fumie.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Rgirl, Welcome back and congratulations on the new computer.
The only thing I would project about Michelle is that you can never leave her out of your calculations. And I too hope that she takes her skating further in the direction that it went this year, especially in TFB!
Her triple lutz near the end of the program is now gorgeous and a true lutz with great height. I can see her being able to stick a 3 toe on the end of it if she wants one, and keeps up with the off ice training that made it possible. Who says you can't get rid of a flutz at an older age!
dpp
The only thing I would project about Michelle is that you can never leave her out of your calculations. And I too hope that she takes her skating further in the direction that it went this year, especially in TFB!
Her triple lutz near the end of the program is now gorgeous and a true lutz with great height. I can see her being able to stick a 3 toe on the end of it if she wants one, and keeps up with the off ice training that made it possible. Who says you can't get rid of a flutz at an older age!
dpp
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Alina - Michelle can do a three three, that's not the problem, but if you were a skater and you a choice of saving your hips or doing a 3/3. What would you decide?
Joe
Joe
Joe- that´s a difficult question. How much would a sportsman/-woman do to reach their goals? Sometimes they are very unreasonable and I know many athlets who after finishing their careers have many physical problems.
My opinion: because others catched the golden medals at olympics 1998 and 2002 Michelle want to reach this golden medal, which she missed, in Turino. And for this goal she will take the risk perhaps not this year but the next. She cannot win in Turino without the 3/3 because the younger skaters like Sasha, Karolina, the russians and the japanes will improve and be more constant till then (2 years!).
You asked me:what would you decide? For me I would decide saving my hips, as trainer I would say: save your hips, but I am not in this situation and then it is very easy to decide reasonable.
Alina
My opinion: because others catched the golden medals at olympics 1998 and 2002 Michelle want to reach this golden medal, which she missed, in Turino. And for this goal she will take the risk perhaps not this year but the next. She cannot win in Turino without the 3/3 because the younger skaters like Sasha, Karolina, the russians and the japanes will improve and be more constant till then (2 years!).
You asked me:what would you decide? For me I would decide saving my hips, as trainer I would say: save your hips, but I am not in this situation and then it is very easy to decide reasonable.
Alina
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I agree completely with this analysis. But I think that Michelle could wait even until the 2005-2006 season to train her three-threes seriously.
The remaining question is whether Michelle really cares that much about pursuing the gold medal in Torino, or whether she will have developed competing interests in the meantime. I don't think that even Michelle herself knows the answer to that question yet. (But she might stay in the mix for three more years to see if she can match Sonia Henie's all-time record of 11 World medals.)
Mathman
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Alina - I understand your rationale and I could agree with it, but Michelle, is something else. I've been watching her since 1994 and I have always found her mysterious. Most of her serious fans know she can do a 3/3 toe, but will she do it in competition? Her serious fans do not know anymore than her non-fans and her non-fans are a sizeable bunch.
The technical mark of the scoring is definitely geared to 3/3s. This is good for MK if she shows them. She's an adequate spinner but not exceptional. In fact MK is not exceptional in any one element, imo. But she flows over that ice like no one else and then we come to the other score, of Presentation.
With the exception of Yokina Ota, who does 3/3s very easily and combines it with gorgeous flow and presentation, Mk will definitely be podium bound. Yokina is the one to watch for gold. The Russian Ladies with all that build up of how balletic they are, is just not true. The Russian Ladies in Pairs, are defenitely better trained in ballet than their single skaters, again, imo.
Alina, I would suggest you check out the Campbells. It is something I am going to do. Don't look for a winner. Look for all around potential. If you center on 3/3s then, imo, you will be missing much of figure skating. You may realize that a skater without a 3/3 could win Torino. Let's watch!
Joe
The technical mark of the scoring is definitely geared to 3/3s. This is good for MK if she shows them. She's an adequate spinner but not exceptional. In fact MK is not exceptional in any one element, imo. But she flows over that ice like no one else and then we come to the other score, of Presentation.
With the exception of Yokina Ota, who does 3/3s very easily and combines it with gorgeous flow and presentation, Mk will definitely be podium bound. Yokina is the one to watch for gold. The Russian Ladies with all that build up of how balletic they are, is just not true. The Russian Ladies in Pairs, are defenitely better trained in ballet than their single skaters, again, imo.
Alina, I would suggest you check out the Campbells. It is something I am going to do. Don't look for a winner. Look for all around potential. If you center on 3/3s then, imo, you will be missing much of figure skating. You may realize that a skater without a 3/3 could win Torino. Let's watch!
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Lucy -= When a fan has another favorite skater in mind, all the fan sees are imaginary flaws in the competition. It's called nitpicking.
There were fans who (didn't like Sarah) thought Sarah underrotated jumps. I never saw that on TV. At DC Worlds, I didn't see it in practice nor in competition. But hey, those same people who see the underrotation will stand by their beliefs.
They have a right to say what they believe. You have a right to note who is saying those things.
Joe
There were fans who (didn't like Sarah) thought Sarah underrotated jumps. I never saw that on TV. At DC Worlds, I didn't see it in practice nor in competition. But hey, those same people who see the underrotation will stand by their beliefs.
They have a right to say what they believe. You have a right to note who is saying those things.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
To me, it seems like, since the 1998 injury, Michelle's had some hesitation with the 3toe in general. Even 3t-2t combos have been a little shaky in competition. However, I don't think I've seen Michelle miss a 3sal since, I dunno, 1994? If I was Michelle, I'd try a 3sal as part of a 3-3 combo, since she seems to own that jump. A 3sal-3loop or 3sal-3toe might be a little easier since she comes out of the 3sal with so much speed.
I do think she always has Tara's 3-3 prowess AND injuries in the back of her mind when she's practicing those. When she needs a 3-3, she'll try a 3-3. She always has. If she doesn't think she needs one, she'll pass (and usually ends up fine).
I do think assuming the other jumping beans will automatically get more consistent in time might not be accurate. It's hard to say where anyone will be injury-wise and growthspurt-wise in 3 years.
I do think she always has Tara's 3-3 prowess AND injuries in the back of her mind when she's practicing those. When she needs a 3-3, she'll try a 3-3. She always has. If she doesn't think she needs one, she'll pass (and usually ends up fine).
I do think assuming the other jumping beans will automatically get more consistent in time might not be accurate. It's hard to say where anyone will be injury-wise and growthspurt-wise in 3 years.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
Every year we talk about Michelle's needing the 3/3 to win Olympic and/or World gold. Frankly, she doesn't need it to win Worlds because no one else has landed them consistently there either. On all other fronts (e.g. presentation, technical), Michelle has usually been the clear winner. Unfortunately, when the stakes have been higher--at the Olympic Games--someone (Tara, Sarah) HAS upped the ante and pulled off two 3/3s or one 3/ 1/2 / 3 plus a 3/3 and skated off with the gold. Michelle's lack of a 3/3 cost her both opportunities for the gold. My guess is that Turin will be the same.
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Joe,
There's the rub. OGM or chronically injured hip. As Mathman said, she could wait to practice the 3/3 until 2005, or as I said, with her strong new bod and off-ice training going into its second year, perhaps training a 3/3 won't cause so much pain. But not matter how strong and well-trained you are, it's hard to get around the laws of Mr. Newton. Some bodies have a tougher time with 3/3s than others, plus Michelle has been doing seven-triple programs for 7-8 years in competition--consistently--and that alone is tough on the landing hip.
0T0h, Realtorgal points out that Michelle got beat in '98 and '02 by ladies with mighty 3/3 combinations. It seems logical that history will repeat itself, but Tara and Sarah's hips weren't so beat up by hip injuries at the time of their Olympics. And Michelle was not as good an overall skater. I thought her greatest asset prior to '03 was her consistency. Now I think Michelle's greatest asset is everything, except the 3/3; that's how far ahead I think she is of everyone else. Ota is a vision, but I saw her Jr. Worlds LP and she's got many, many years to go in order to reach Michelle's level of capability, IMO.
Grgranny -- I call it as I see it. Michelle was short on a lot of things, as I saw it, up until '03 Nats and Worlds. For various reasons and with the right help, I felt she pulled herself up to a whole new level technically and performance-wise. When I saw it, I was thrilled and said so. I love Martin Scorsese's movies, but if he makes a clunker, I say it's a clunker.
BTW, an iBook is an Apple MacIntosh version of a laptop. Very cool. I can watch DVDs on it!
Rgirl
There's the rub. OGM or chronically injured hip. As Mathman said, she could wait to practice the 3/3 until 2005, or as I said, with her strong new bod and off-ice training going into its second year, perhaps training a 3/3 won't cause so much pain. But not matter how strong and well-trained you are, it's hard to get around the laws of Mr. Newton. Some bodies have a tougher time with 3/3s than others, plus Michelle has been doing seven-triple programs for 7-8 years in competition--consistently--and that alone is tough on the landing hip.
I didn't quote your whole post, which I think makes great points. But the other side of the coin is that Sasha, Karolina, the Russians and Japanese may become more consistent and have 3/3s, but they may also become injured. Take Yoshie Onda. She was jumping great guns this last season and then right before the GPF, serious injury. It's a dangerous choice.alina said:
0T0h, Realtorgal points out that Michelle got beat in '98 and '02 by ladies with mighty 3/3 combinations. It seems logical that history will repeat itself, but Tara and Sarah's hips weren't so beat up by hip injuries at the time of their Olympics. And Michelle was not as good an overall skater. I thought her greatest asset prior to '03 was her consistency. Now I think Michelle's greatest asset is everything, except the 3/3; that's how far ahead I think she is of everyone else. Ota is a vision, but I saw her Jr. Worlds LP and she's got many, many years to go in order to reach Michelle's level of capability, IMO.
Grgranny -- I call it as I see it. Michelle was short on a lot of things, as I saw it, up until '03 Nats and Worlds. For various reasons and with the right help, I felt she pulled herself up to a whole new level technically and performance-wise. When I saw it, I was thrilled and said so. I love Martin Scorsese's movies, but if he makes a clunker, I say it's a clunker.
BTW, an iBook is an Apple MacIntosh version of a laptop. Very cool. I can watch DVDs on it!
Rgirl
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