Miki & Mao send out warning!

[antmanb]

After Biellmann-mania and the conventional wisdom that a skater should be able to hold the free leg in a verticle position I'm thoroughly sick of spiral sequences (a kind of minature bathroom break most of the time) and wish they'd be dumped for plain footwork and/or footwork with mitf.

Or let's make the men do spiral sequences and have the ladies do something more interesting that doesn't require extreme flexibility (a horribly overrated 'skill').

Oh god please no - it is bad enough seeing the men in the Pairs struggling to do the dog peeing on fire hydrant, to see the men having to do it would just be painful.

I find all sprial sequences to be a painful experience nowadays. Seeing the girls (and pairs) hit a position whilst counting (one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand) all whilst slo-o-o-o-o-wing down, getting all the edges in, peeing on the fire hydrant, changing with a sloppy wobbly edge.

I used to like the inclusion of two or three spiral and spread eagels in a proper serpentine or circular pattern, but now....the skaters all slow to a crawl, it no fun to watch and takes up time that might be better spent doign real transitions or choreogrpahy.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Ant - Why is it necessary to do all those giddy spirals one after another? Why not let the choreographer put them in separate spots on the program so as to not disrupt the program with a 'here comes the flexibility' sequence?

In the case of Lambiel and others who can edge properly, why is it necessary to do a separate footwork sequence when they have been doing footwork throughout the whole program?

Joe

 

[antmanb]

Ant - Why is it necessary to do all those giddy spirals one after another? Why not let the choreographer put them in separate spots on the program so as to not disrupt the program with a 'here comes the flexibility' sequence?

In the case of Lambiel and others who can edge properly, why is it necessary to do a separate footwork sequence when they have been doing footwork throughout the whole program?

Joe

I agree with you completely Joe. The step sequence requirements (i think) are there for skaters who would otherwise leave them out! I liked it in the days when the ladies would do a couple of spirals here and there in the program. Michelle's COE spiral was beauitufl and a highlightin moment not just because it was so well done, but because it then didn't have to be followed up with the mandatory leg flexing!

I also agree that Lambiel's program was a masterpiece of edge work and choreography and the step sequencces werent necessary given the content of the rest of the skate...though i'm pleased he did include the step sequences because i thought they were beautiful too.

Ant

 

[enlight78]

I think a spiral sequence should be optional for men and women. Like you can do two step sequences or do a step sequence and a spiral sequence. The both require great edge control ane estrange upper body movement. If you have the beauty,flexibility, speed, and control; by all means show it off. If you don't just do step sequences.

 

[Linny]

For the points

Perhaps it should all be set up that the skater does what they do well and rack up points for each element. So, if they do a spiral well, they get points, if they do footwork well, they get points.

In PCS, though, they would also get points for a balanced program, so if they came out and did nothing but spirals, the PCS scores would go down.

Oh gawd, maybe not. Another change to the COP might be more than anyone could handle.

As far as Mao having nothing but jumps - I disagree. I think she is lyrical on the ice. I could watch her skate all day, even if she didn't do a single jump.

Linny

 

[enlight78]

Oh gawd, maybe not. Another change to the COP might be more than anyone could handle.

Linny

By 2010 the rules for COP are going to look like the constitution of united states.

 

[Mathman]

Ant - Why is it necessary to do all those giddy spirals one after another? Why not let the choreographer put them in separate spots on the program so as to not disrupt the program with a 'here comes the flexibility' sequence?

In the case of Lambiel and others who can edge properly, why is it necessary to do a separate footwork sequence when they have been doing footwork throughout the whole program?

Well, that's the whole point of the CoP (and why lots of people don't like it). You have so many elements. Each element gets so many points. It's kind of like a sport. You get 6 points for a touchdown and 3 points for a field goal.

One of the elements is a spiral (ladies). The more positions you can do in your one spiral sequenc the higher level you get (same with spins). So if you don't do the dog and hydrant, you have to come up with some other outlandish position for your third change of posititon, otherwise you won't get the points.

IMHO it is a big challenge to choreographers to try to string thirteen identical required elements together and make some sort of program out of them.

 

[gio]

FS is becoming a jumping and a flexibility competition. Edge control and proper execution of the elements are thrown out of the window.

 

[enlight78]

FS is becoming a jumping and a flexibility competition. Edge control and proper execution of the elements are thrown out of the window.

It is up to the judges to turn that around. If skaters started to see fours and fives for skating skills I believe skater would get the message and improve upon it.

 

[SeaniBu]

It is really sticking me as odd that anyone would not want the spiral. If there is anything that has the "remenisant qualities" of Figures it would be the spiral. Also if that was taken out where would the "beauty and grace" start to head even further than it is already. I think FS has had that "things you can barely do standing are done on ice" and the fact the spiral is often the picture in mind when many envision a picture of FS.

This "no spiral talk" is just silly to me.:yes: But I do like some of the points of scoring so skaters get the hint to do them better. As far as the guys go, whos to say they need to have the same types of positions in the spiral?

And Miki's sit spin, if you can call it that, Area in need of improvement FOR SURE. Work on that quad or whatever, but I certainly hope that sit spin can improve. I am thinking of Fumie (of course ) and wondering if this is a Japan coaching issue with the sit spin. ???

 

[antmanb]

It is really sticking me as odd that anyone would not want the spiral. If there is anything that has the "remenisant qualities" of Figures it would be the spiral. Also if that was taken out where would the "beauty and grace" start to head even further than it is already. I think FS has had that "things you can barely do standing are done on ice" and the fact the spiral is often the picture in mind when many envision a picture of FS.

I'm not sure that i'd agree that spirals are the element that are the most remeniscent of figures. The spirals are held edges which nowadays required mandaotry body positions showing extreme flexibilty. The COP seemingly doesn't reward control and precision in the spirals which were of paramount important in figures. If the spirals were pegged more to the shape created on the ice rather than the circus freak positions that can be attained, i would agree and actually quite like the spiral sequence. For me its the "cookie cutter" spiral sequences that are all done equally as poorly that detracts from the beauty. Seeing the men in the pairs struggle to do the dog peeing on hydrant spiral is not beauitufl or graceful, seeing most of the girls trying to the peeing on fire hydrant spiral and not really getting a high free leg or enough lean back into the edge and watch them wobblgin is not beautiful or graceful adn there are maybe only four or five skaters in the world who can hit those positions and make them look beauitufl and graceful (and a couple of those weren't skating this season!).

This "no spiral talk" is just silly to me.:yes: But I do like some of the points of scoring so skaters get the hint to do them better. As far as the guys go, whos to say they need to have the same types of positions in the spiral?

The GOE deductions should be severe in the sprial sequence e.g. if you change edge in your spiral by whipping the foot across to the other edge its an automatic -1, if you wobble in attaing the hyper flexi position then another -1 GOE should be taken (or better yet the three seconds does not start counting until you have a wobble free edge) any scraping with your toe pick on the back spirals leads to another -1GOE. Many of the level 4 sprials we see would end up with -3 GOE and rightly so. The GOE penalties should be harsh enough so that skaters who do not do the level 4 enhancements well would stick to level 2 sprials and do them very well.

And Miki's sit spin, if you can call it that, Area in need of improvement FOR SURE. Work on that quad or whatever, but I certainly hope that sit spin can improve. I am thinking of Fumie (of course ) and wondering if this is a Japan coaching issue with the sit spin. ???

The sitpsin is quite an issue for quite a few skaters. Love her as much as i did Lu Chen's sitspin was non existant - she used to do a squatting spin with teh free leg crossed over thespinning leg which was the nearest she got to a sitspin...it was more of an upright variation.

Ant

 

[kittyjake5]

I agree about the sit-spin. During Worlds Dick Button was complaining so much about the way the ladies were doing the sit spin. He said something like (this is not a direct quote) so many of the Ladies are doing them wrong and he wondered if he missed something and a new sit spin position had been invented.

 

[SeaniBu]

I'm not sure that i'd agree that spirals are the element that are the most remeniscent of figures.

Well, what else looks anything like figures in FS? I can't think of any that are "true to" figures, but spirals are the closest there is IMO. Not they are anything like them, but as far as having ANYTHING that RESEMBLES them, I can't think of any other. Nothing IS figures but that IMO is as close as it comes anymore.

The GOE deductions should be severe in the sprial sequence e.g. if you change edge in your spiral by whipping the foot across to the other edge its an automatic -1, if you wobble in attaing the hyper flexi position then another -1 GOE should be taken (or better yet the three seconds does not start counting until you have a wobble free edge) any scraping with your toe pick on the back spirals leads to another -1GOE. Many of the level 4 sprials we see would end up with -3 GOE and rightly so. The GOE penalties should be harsh enough so that skaters who do not do the level 4 enhancements well would stick to level 2 sprials and do them very well.

I TOTALLY agree.

The sitpsin is quite an issue for quite a few skaters. Love her as much as i did Lu Chen's sitspin was non existant - she used to do a squatting spin with teh free leg crossed over thespinning leg which was the nearest she got to a sitspin...it was more of an upright variation.

Sounds like a "reverse broken leg" spin.

...so many of the Ladies are doing them wrong and he wondered if he {Dick} missed something and a new sit spin position had been invented.

:agree:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Seanibu - How are you. It's been a while since we disagreed or even agreed.

My saying that the spirals should be banned was just one of my 'off he wall' remarks. What I really object to is that the variations are sequenced at some point in the program when esthetically and choreographically they would look better placed by the choreographer throughout the program.

I understand the rationale for the CoP, it's just that I don't like it the way the programs look. All the spiral variations are happening to the swells in the soft music by everyone. Similarly, I do not like 5 triple jumps at the beginning of a program which usually have nothing to do with music.

But hey, that's the way it is in skateland, and you certainly can like all the CoP the way it is.

Joe

 

[blue dog]

I agree about the sit-spin. During Worlds Dick Button was complaining so much about the way the ladies were doing the sit spin. He said something like (this is not a direct quote) so many of the Ladies are doing them wrong and he wondered if he missed something and a new sit spin position had been invented.

That comment by Dick made me laugh--I find it annoying that they're racking up points with sit spin variations (the pancake being one of them) when they can't even do this:

http://store.worldskatingmuseum.org/media/Sit Spin Print

I once had a photo of a woman from Great Britain's adult nationals--she was doing the "simple" sit spin AT THE AGE of SEVENTY-TWO! Here was a woman who did the sit spin the way it was meant to be done, but she couldn't do quads =P

And, like you, Joe, I long for the day when the skaters used the spirals and footwork sequences sparingly throughout the program, rather than in big spurts--although people aren't using the same "music," everyone's music is being cut THE SAME WAY--with the soft part in the middle for the spiral into the triple loop or the double axel...then a semi-fast section in the beginning for their O footwork, and then a fast section towards the end for their straightline step sequence...before the flying squat spin/beaver cleaver to finish.

 

[SeaniBu]

Seanibu - How are you. It's been a while since we disagreed or even agreed.

OK, Grandpa died last week and I am Grandparentless now but....OK with it.

My saying that the spirals should be banned was just one of my 'off he wall' remarks. What I really object to is that the variations are sequenced at some point in the program when esthetically and choreographically they would look better placed by the choreographer throughout the program.

That makes sense. I think we "kinda" are agreeing. It sounds like you weren't really serious about an all out ban but concern with poor quality / same ol' stuff in them.:agree:

I understand the rationale for the CoP, it's just that I don't like it the way the programs look. All the spiral variations are happening to the swells in the soft music by everyone. Similarly, I do not like 5 triple jumps at the beginning of a program which usually have nothing to do with music.

But hey, that's the way it is in skateland, and you certainly can like all the CoP the way it is.

I agree with this more than I let on, TRYING to have faith that it will still be adjusted to compensate for the problems CoP has caused. Although it is not emphasizing the Artistic element as much - I WANT A PERFECT BALANCE, DARN IT SPEEDY AND Co. - and am diminishing my faith in the CoP and how it does seem to be the catalyst for these "artistic lacking" programmes. I t hink the best thing for them to do IMO is to take the CoP and fit it into a 10 point system for the publics sake and lower the value a little of the jumps and give more value to step sq and spins. JMO.

I'll bett 2 cookies that the CoP changes in the next 2 years to re-disperse their point values.

 

[perry125]

I read an article on Mao quoting her saying that she wanted to do more ballet and dance this season in order to improve her artistry. I don't think she is really planning on trying to do a quad.

 

[Mathman]

OK, Grandpa died last week and I am Grandparentless now but....OK with it.

Sorry to hear it. Is this the man who worked on Mount Rushmore?

 

[SeaniBu]

Sorry to hear it. Is this the man who worked on Mount Rushmore?

No, he was the Radio Minister. Had a very full life and helped many people an cultures.
http://www.mem.com/display/biography.asp?ID=1785303

Howdy (Mt Rushmore) Died back in 95.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/rushmore/peopleevents/p_carvers.html
3 pic down in the article - on the right, lots of interesting stories he had.:yes:
"A story is told of a bizarre accident which occurred one day when Howdy Peterson was "blowing off" another workman. At the end of the workday, compressed air was used to remove the rock dust that had accumulated all over the workmen's clothes and hair. Howdy was holding onto the hose when another fellow "came by and he gave me a kick. Well, in return I reached out and speared him in the butt with that air hose. And, why, I just blowed him up tighter'n a drum! I sure didn't mean to. It was a freak thing. How you could hit a guy that square-on I don't know, but it happened. ... Scared? Man oh man! I was never so scared in my life!"

Red Anderson was a witness:

"When that hose connected you could just see [his] belly swell up. He yelled, 'My God, Howdy! You've killed me!' Then he started passing the air, and when he did he passed some blood, too. That really scared him, and us too!"

The victim had been treated for abdominal cancer the year before and when his doctor examined him, he was surprised to announce that the air had loosened the abdominal adhesions that were bothering him."

BOT
I heard that about Mao too - working on ballet moves. I will be interested to see what happens with that.:agree:

 

[rain]

I read an article on Mao quoting her saying that she wanted to do more ballet and dance this season in order to improve her artistry. I don't think she is really planning on trying to do a quad.

Problem is, lack of balletic skill is not Asada's problem artistically. She is very graceful and light across the ice already. No, what she needs is some help on interpretation of music, and not ignoring her choreography/ music as the jumps come up. Her SP was lovely and full of feeling, even with the technical mistake, but her LP, with the more demanding technical content, was a huge, mechanical-looking bore.