Misha Ge out with Injury from 4CC

[Mrs. P]

I talked about this whole quad debate to a friend this morning. She's not a skating fan, so it was interesting to hear her perspective (for context, I was talking to her about going to Worlds and she then asked about the competitive landscape). She made the point that with sports, she's concerned that any competitive athlete will feel pressure to strive for the best and often putting them in unideal, or even dangerous situations. She felt that there needed to be a talk in terms of what competition excellence looks like and that there needs be an opportunity to embrace diversity as far as how to be excellent.

She then shared how in the writing world (she's a fiction writer) that there's been a lot of pressure on writers to write more, to produce more to the point that many writers are suffering from carpel tunnel from over producing. She said the the writing world has become too much defined by how much you write and less on the quality.

Anyway, it was a really good conversation. I don't expect these thoughts to settle the debate, but thought I'd share.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Show me where it is a requirement in the rules? as long as I know they only are forced to do a 3A. Anything else is up to the skater.

Actually, a 2A will do.

Well, you can pass school courses with all D's and graduate. But, if you wish to go to an Ivy League school, medical or law school, or get a good job.........Yeah, no rules, no pressure, just competition.

 

[cruzceleste]

Actually, a 2A will do.

Well, you can pass school courses with all D's and graduate. But, if you wish to go to an Ivy League school, medical or law school, or get a good job.........Yeah, no rules, no pressure, just competition.

Yes, maybe Ivy League Schools shouldn´t exist anyway, I guess the pressure of studyung hard isn´t good to the health... But you aren´t forced to study in an Ivy League are you? You can be a good doctor even a great doctor with out doing it. But is up to you.

And 2A in senior mens will be a joke... even little boys can do the jump

 

[dasani]

4verhan laid out the scenario well, including what I've wanted to say. The top tier, the 4 or 5 Worlds medal contender are the all round skaters. The next tier are the quadsters, threatening to medal if some of the top Men have a bad day on the wrong day. The artistic skaters without a quad, or a reliable one, are ranked below them, with no chance whatsoever to medal or in the top 7 or so no matter how talented they are, how wonderfully they perform, and how hard they work. Some of them are injured now trying too hard for the quads. Will some of them be disabled or discouraged? Will there be the next generation in this category to stick around to perform for us? I guess fans like you don't give a damn, for their health or their existence. But skaters and most fans care about what figure skating is about.

Here is looking back at the WC top 10 list in the past 5 years, the numbers besides each skater's name indicates the # of quads ratified on the protocol in SP & LP:

	-------2015-------	-------2014-------	-------2013-------	-------2012-------	-------2011-------
1	Fernandez (1,3)	Hanyu (1,2)	Chan (1,2)	Chan (1,2)	Chan (1,2)
2	Hanyu (1,1)	Machida (1,2)	Ten (1,1)	Takahashi (1,1)	Kozuka (0,1)
3	Ten (1,2)	Fernandez (1,3)	Fernandez (1,2)	Hanyu (1,1)	Gachinski (1,2)
4	Brown (0,0)	Kovtun (2,1)	Hanyu (1,2)	Joubert (1,1)	Brezina (0,2)
5	Nguyen (0,1)	Abbott (1,1)	Reynolds (2,3)	Amodio (1,1)	Takahashi (0,0)
6	Ge (0,0)	Kozuka (1,1)	Takahashi (1,1)	Brezina (1,2)	Oda (1,0)
7	Kovtun (1,3)	Han (1,0)	Aaron (1,1)	Ten (0,1)	Amodio (0,0)
8	Rippon (1,0)	Aaron (1,2)	Mura (0,1)	Abbott (0,1)	Joubert (1,1)
9	Amodio (1,0)	Besseghier (1,1)	Joubert (1,2)	Fernandez (1,2)	Dornbush (0,0)
10	Han (1,1)	Vernre (1,1)	Brezina (1,2)	Contesti (0,0)	Fernandez (0,2)

Total quads ratified from top 10: 2015 (18), 2014 (25), 2013 (27), 2012 (19), 2011 (13)

If we look at the top 10 list from the past 5 years, is there an alarming sign of having the quadsters who is knocking the artistic skaters off the 2nd tier? Were there many skaters waz robbed because of these 2nd tier skaters making it up there mostly because of the quads? (btw, I'm not trying to start any arguments or be sarcastic by asking these questions. I'm really not sure how everyone defines artistry and who they think should be the deserving 2nd tier of skaters)

I find it interesting that last year had the least number of the "non-quad" skaters making it to the top 10 list since 2011. One thing for sure, the ice is slippery and having a quad doesn't mean it's an automatic upgrade of placement.

I do find the zayak rule also create a lot of limitations for skaters that don't have a quad. Let's say someone has very solid triple jumps including the 3A, there aren't a lot of room to maximize the scoring potential. They can only do two kinds of triple jumps twice, and then the next best alternative is to throw in two 2A jumps.

Maybe if they can change the zayak rule to allow 3 repeats of a triple jump, and 2 repeats of two other kinds of triple (i.e. 3*3A, 2*2Lz, 2*2F), this will allow more opportunities for skaters who don't want to risk a quad. Afterall, a solid 3A with maximum GOE can worth more than a sloppy quad attempt (a 3A in 2nd half with max GOE awarded = 12.35, while a BV of 4T is 10.3)

 

[Violet Bliss]

Well, looking at dasani's list for 2015, Amodio is retired and out. Quadless Brown is out, quadless Ge is out, both injured from quad training. All three artistic skaters with absolutely no chance of medaling, over training to stay in top 10. Uno is in, Jin is in, both formidable quad youngsters. Nguyen is out as well with physical issues. Kovtun stays in the top ten.

So what are the facts? Artistic skaters are injured and reduced in the top ten while new super jumpers jump right into the top ten as soon as they join the senior rank. And Kovtun stays.

eta And a top ten hopeful in the young person of Nathan Chen is too already injured. Another top US skater, Farris, is too on the injured list.

 

[4everchan]

the simple fact that "quadless" is now a current word in this forum speaks volume.

 

[Raomina]

It seems like it could be more of a training problem? The quadless skaters are not used to training a quad and are getting injured more easily? How was the situation back in 2013 where everyone in the top 10 had a quad?

 

[Skater Boy]

Yes, maybe Ivy League Schools shouldn´t exist anyway, I guess the pressure of studyung hard isn´t good to the health... But you aren´t forced to study in an Ivy League are you? You can be a good doctor even a great doctor with out doing it. But is up to you.

And 2A in senior mens will be a joke... even little boys can do the jump

it's a joke but it is allowed. Just like double jumps in the sp for ladies. For every step forward in skating it seems there may be two backwards

 

[Tavi...]

Yes, maybe Ivy League Schools shouldn´t exist anyway, I guess the pressure of studyung hard isn´t good to the health... But you aren´t forced to study in an Ivy League are you? You can be a good doctor even a great doctor with out doing it. But is up to you.

And 2A in senior mens will be a joke... even little boys can do the jump

Do you think it's only at Ivy League schools that people study hard? Do you get that people who attend Ivy League schools - which includes me, by the way, chica - are not better or smarter than those who don't, but still have opportunities dropped in their laps because of that Ivy League stamp of approval? Do you get that people kill themselves to get into Ivy League schools because the rewards in our society go disproportionately to those with elite educations?

I don't know how it is en su gran país, but that's the way it is here.

 

[mrrice]

The powers that be have got to make some decisions. Figure skating is having a ratings problem and now, 3 of the top 10 skaters from last season and 2 of the biggest stars from the US will not be attending in their home Country. All due to injuries directly related to the training of quads. Add Misha to the list and you have a road map for a ratings disaster. Now that Nathan is also out, I have to wonder how many non-US skaters have sustained injuries that we don't even know about.

 

[4everchan]

nobody is talking in this thread about banning quads... we are talking about how the focus on them needs to shift to adapt to a reality that wasn't there before youngsters started to train many of them at younger and younger age.... it's not black or white...

 

[HanDomi]

nobody is talking in this thread about banning quads... we are talking about how the focus on them needs to shift to adapt to a reality that wasn't there before youngsters started to train many of them at younger and younger age.... it's not black or white...

It's just natural way of sport development. Younger and younger skaters started practicing triples at younger ages, triple axels, and now quads. Technique on jumps is improving as training options are wider than before.

 

[Violet Bliss]

The powers that be have got to make some decisions. Figure skating is having a ratings problem and now, 3 of the top 10 skaters from last season and 2 of the biggest stars from the US will not be attending in their home Country. All due to injuries directly related to the training of quads. Add Misha to the list and you have a road map for a ratings disaster. Now that Nathan is also out, I have to wonder how many non-US skaters have sustained injuries that we don't even know about.

There are always the unknown and less known who do not merit wide spread attention.

 

[Violet Bliss]

It's just natural way of sport development. Younger and younger skaters started practicing triples at younger ages, triple axels, and now quads. Technique on jumps is improving as training options are wider than before.

And the injured list grows long with younger and younger skaters, along with the older ones.

 

[4everchan]

It's just natural way of sport development. Younger and younger skaters started practicing triples at younger ages, triple axels, and now quads. Technique on jumps is improving as training options are wider than before.

natural? doubt it is to get hip surgery at 16... sorry

 

[mrrice]

And the injured list grows long with younger and younger skaters, along with the older ones.

Exactly, and I have to wonder how long it will be before parents begin to decide that skating is just too dangerous to let their kids get involved. In my case, that's exactly why I had to stop skating. I was fortunate enough to make money as a singer from a young age. I was also in ballet and loved skating. I fell on a jump during a warm up at a local competition and that was enough for my parents to pull me from skating because they thought I'd get seriously injured.

When I think about the events I've been to. I can honestly say that quads ARE very exciting to see in person. I don't know how tall Kevin Reynolds is but, when I saw him he did 2 quads in his SP and it was very thrilling!! He has really puffy, fire engine red hair and he kind of had a swag about him. I guess I'd call him a "Hipster." Now, as exciting as Kevin was, he is no match for Plushy and Patrick. Every time I want a ban on quads I think of them and say No Way!!

With that in mind, I still say that Todd Eldridge's Triple Axel might be "Biggest" Jump I've ever seen because he jumps so high and covers a ton of ice. The crowd actually gasped while he was the air and screamed when he landed. Hasn't Patrick Chan made comments on this subject. I never like to see things move backward but, I wonder if the risk is worth the reward.

 

[4everchan]

Exactly, and I have to wonder how long it will be before parents begin to decide that skating is just too dangerous to let their kids get involved. In my case, that's exactly why I had to stop skating. I was fortunate enough to make money as a singer from a young age. I was also in ballet and loved skating. I fell on a jump during a warm up at a local competition and that was enough for my parents to pull me from skating because they thought I'd get seriously injured.

When I think about the events I've been to. I can honestly say that quads ARE very exciting to see in person. I don't know how tall Kevin Reynolds is but, when I saw him he did 2 quads in his SP and it was very thrilling!! He has really puffy, fire engine red hair and he kind of had a swag about him. I guess I'd call him a "Hipster." Now, as exciting as Kevin was, he is no match for Plushy and Patrick. Every time I want a ban on quads I think of them and say No Way!!

With that in mind, I still say that Todd Eldridge's Triple Axel might be "Biggest" Jump I've ever seen because he jumps so high and covers a ton of ice. The crowd actually gasped while he was the air and screamed when he landed. Hasn't Patrick Chan made comments on this subject. I never like to see things move backward but, I wonder if the risk is worth the reward.

my parents refused that i do figure skating as it wasn't hockey... so i went into swimming (speedos!!!!)

kevin is just recovering from hip surgery as you know... so even a quad master like him.... with a thin body.... SIGH

I agree with you that banning is intense, and other sports also wreck their athletes bodies (ski,gymnastics, diving) so perhaps there is a need to investigate and see what the body can actually sustain.

For instance, there could be different "zayak" rules for quads only.... (right now, the skaters who have different quads or even just one quad have a huge advantage compared to the ones who don't and have to include 2A in their jumping passes)

there could be a more pure skating skills type of SP with more steps and spins but less jumps, or lesser difficulty jumps (no quads allowed... no triple axel allowed) but then just looking at pure skating and quality of each element.... Diving has a round of imposed EASY dives where there is a limit in the difficulty degree divers can execute. The aim is to evaluate perfect technique... that would be good for figure skating too.. for instance, it may lead to less flutzes , cleaner edges and landings, better air position, flow... etc.... The LP could remain similar.... or with minor changes

At least this way, both programs wouldn't be about quads everywhere, but we would see best of both worlds, and it would favour the all around skaters... this is not necessarily going backwards... as the LP would allow the true jumpers to shine as well... It's about being sensible...

 

[Mathman]

I don't think that limiting the number of quads would help much with the injury problem. Even if you do just one quad in your program, that one quad represents hundreds of reps in practice.

 

[4everchan]

i agree with that.

my point is mostly about shifting the focus to other elements., so a skater who doesn't have quads can be rewarded significantly for other elements. .. even a layback position can hurt someone's back ... but one will not lose a chance to podium because they don't have a great layback..

I don't think that limiting the number of quads would help much with the injury problem. Even if you do just one quad in your program, that one quad represents hundreds of reps in practice.

 

[mrrice]

I don't think that limiting the number of quads would help much with the injury problem. Even if you do just one quad in your program, that one quad represents hundreds of reps in practice.

True, I'm pretty sure that Jason was only trying to complete a quad toe and he still got injured. Like many have said, some sports are a dangerous activity and there's no way around it. I remember watching that guy go flying off the ski jump at the beginning of Wide World Of Sports every week and they didn't stop that event.

Here's the intro from WWOS and it includes both Tara and Todd as part of the "Thrill Of Victory" and it has the clip of the guy falling off the ski ramp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjlni3aez8E