Mishin's opinion on components based on Jin

[plushyfan]

http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-s...034541473.html

Mishin's interesting opinion, google translate

Coach Alexei Mishin believes that judges are going to reduce the estimates for the components of the Chinese Jin Boyan.
"As Jin Boyana, imagine - it does five quadruple jump in the long program. And he is capable of it. On average, each jump, let's bring him to 12 points. A total of 60. What grace can compensate for such a sum? Nothing.
Therefore, I fear the next. At the Grand Prix in China Jin Bojan I did not all jump cleanly. But if he begins to deal with them, then the judges have a problem - how to understate his assessment of the components! Raise others above 9.5, even 10 points will not work - then the components have to understate Jin Boyan.
Those who think that his program - "run-jump", I answer: this boy is quite elegant. He simply does not have the charm name. And it does not curve or scythe. Normal guy. Already he is good in terms of components. And when he has them tighten, and viewers will get used to it - it will not be possible to put such a low second estimate. And then the problem will cover the entire International Skating Union. This problem is called - what to do? "- Said Mishin.

 

[HanDomi]

http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-s...034541473.html

Mishin's interesting opinion, google translate

Coach Alexei Mishin believes that judges are going to reduce the estimates for the components of the Chinese Jin Boyan.
"As Jin Boyana, imagine - it does five quadruple jump in the long program. And he is capable of it. On average, each jump, let's bring him to 12 points. A total of 60. What grace can compensate for such a sum? Nothing.
Therefore, I fear the next. At the Grand Prix in China Jin Bojan I did not all jump cleanly. But if he begins to deal with them, then the judges have a problem - how to understate his assessment of the components! Raise others above 9.5, even 10 points will not work - then the components have to understate Jin Boyan.
Those who think that his program - "run-jump", I answer: this boy is quite elegant. He simply does not have the charm name. And it does not curve or scythe. Normal guy. Already he is good in terms of components. And when he has them tighten, and viewers will get used to it - it will not be possible to put such a low second estimate. And then the problem will cover the entire International Skating Union. This problem is called - what to do? "- Said Mishin.

I don't see any problem. As long as he will not improve his skating he will not get higher components. Let's be honest. There is like day and night between him vs hanyu and chan and this needs to be reflected in components definitely.

 

[gsyzf]

I don't see any problem. As long as he will not improve his skating he will not get higher components. Let's be honest. There is like day and night between him vs hanyu and chan and this needs to be reflected in components definitely.

Boyang didn’t get high GOE or PCS for his performances.

Boyang's strategy shows that other skaters need to upgrade their layout. It’s never a good idea to encourage top skaters to win with very easy layouts just because their rivals have less well-rounded skills. If top skaters have difficult layouts like Yuzuru, they will still score higher than Boyang.

 

[Meoima]

http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-s...034541473.html

Mishin's interesting opinion, google translate

Coach Alexei Mishin believes that judges are going to reduce the estimates for the components of the Chinese Jin Boyan.
"As Jin Boyana, imagine - it does five quadruple jump in the long program. And he is capable of it. On average, each jump, let's bring him to 12 points. A total of 60. What grace can compensate for such a sum? Nothing.
Therefore, I fear the next. At the Grand Prix in China Jin Bojan I did not all jump cleanly. But if he begins to deal with them, then the judges have a problem - how to understate his assessment of the components! Raise others above 9.5, even 10 points will not work - then the components have to understate Jin Boyan.
Those who think that his program - "run-jump", I answer: this boy is quite elegant. He simply does not have the charm name. And it does not curve or scythe. Normal guy. Already he is good in terms of components. And when he has them tighten, and viewers will get used to it - it will not be possible to put such a low second estimate. And then the problem will cover the entire International Skating Union. This problem is called - what to do? "- Said Mishin.

It's difficult to think about changing the system completely because of just one skater, because we don't know if in the following years there will be more athletes like Boyang who only has quantity but no quality or if he's just a single case.
If ISU wants to make it clear that, to reach to the top, you need full rounded skills from SS to spins, to jumps, choreography... Then they should reward those skills exactly as they should.
They shouldn't reward average spinner with huge GOE just because they happen to have a clean performance, landing all the jumps shouldn't help skater getting higher GOE in spins and steps in general.
They shouldn't reward average jumper with huge GOE too, landing jumps with hook landing or there is no flow in the landing shouldn't get reward too much either.
They shouldn't reward too much PCS just for BV either. Because you put one difficult jump in your layout, no matter how bad your jump looks, even with hook and turn out, you get advantage in PCS, it's another issue too.
Having great SS doesn't always go along with having good jumps and good jumps doesn't mean they always go good SS.
The issue is judges often overlap all the criteria and components together.

 

[plushyfan]

I don't know guys...This is Mishin's opinion, this is the reason why it is interesting... We can't ignore it.

 

[HanDomi]

I don't know guys...This is Mishin's opinion, this is the reason why it is interesting... We can't ignore it.

but let's be honest, with all respect to Mishin we all know that he admires mostly jumps

 

[xibsuarz]

I don't know guys...This is Mishin's opinion, this is the reason why it is interesting... We can't ignore it.

It's interesting, it's Mishin after all. I just wait and see what the judges decide to do with this, NHK and GPF are only a few weeks away after all
Sorry, sorry, back to Yuzu

 

[Meoima]

I don't know guys...This is Mishin's opinion, this is the reason why it is interesting... We can't ignore it.

Mishin meant that the system's in danger because the unbalanced of TES and PCS. Does high TES automatically mean high PCS? No or yes? ISU should make it clear. They don't, they overlap all the components and elements too much and for years. The system has not been applied in the consistent way for years and that's the issue.
He is talking about the loophole in the system, whether or not should it be fixed, it depends on which is the final destination of the system or the ones who created it. They want balanced skaters and balanced performances, or unbalanced routines without true skating. It's ISU to decide in the end.
And the last time I have heard, USFA is proposing a rule to limit the number of quads.

 

[moriel]

yeah, I think this issue has been raised on this forum too...

Imho, limiting TES in any way is not a solution - they will just kill the sport part, the challenge.
Maybe its time to reconsider PCs

I wonder, would it it technically possible to re-make PCs skoring in a way similar to how TES is scored now - basically a bunch of bullet points, each one adds some value to the overall, so no imediate upper limit?

 

[Mattieu]

I worry about what it is doing to athletes bodies all these quad jumps.
Surely the impact force is very damaging.
If the skaters start to need 3 or more quads just to be competitive, I fear skaters careers are going to be very short.

 

[dorispulaski]

When the unartistic skater with high tech was Tim Goebel, who could do 3 quads in an LP (occasionally), and might therfore win by overwhelming high tech scores, the initial system got a multiplier that upped the percentage PCS contributed to total score. If there is a change, I would not be surprised to see this multiplier changed rather than limiting quads.

This solution has the historical basis that tech and second mark had equal contributions to the final score, both in 6.0 and IJS.

 

[HanDomi]

When the unartistic skater with high tech was Tim Goebel, who could do 3 quads in an LP (occasionally), and might therfore win by overwhelming high tech scores, the initial system got a multiplier that upped the percentage PCS contributed to total score. If there is a change, I would not be surprised to see this multiplier changed rather than limiting quads.

This solution has the historical basis that tech and second mark had equal contributions to the final score, both in 6.0 and IJS.

I don' think there can be win at current top with just TES without PCS, because there is Hanyu who can also set huge TES(even 110-115 in free) but he also has in addition to that top class skating.
Maybe PCS bar should be moved up a little, I don't know. There is only two skaters right now who can set enourmous TES up to 110+ in free - Hanyu & Jin. I don't think this is yet situation when PCS bar should be moved up

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think PCS is too inflated on the men's side. Jin's LP PCS in China was low 7's, and Javier's was around low 9's. That's fair. However, the difference in their PCS scores were about the BV of two quads, which I don't agree with. I just don't think Jin is so bad that he should have to do multiple quads more than Javier to catch him.

 

[gsyzf]

I think PCS is too inflated on the men's side. Jin's LP PCS in China was low 7's, and Javier's was around low 9's. That's fair. However, the difference in their PCS scores were about the BV of two quads, which I don't agree with. I just don't think Jin is so bad that he should have to do multiple quads more than Javier to catch him.

The multiplier for men's LP PCS is 2. So the difference in their PCS will be 20 points if Jin gets low 7's and Javier gets low 9's unless the multiplier is changed.

 

[HanDomi]

I think PCS is too inflated on the men's side. Jin's LP PCS in China was low 7's, and Javier's was around low 9's. That's fair. However, the difference in their PCS scores were about the BV of two quads, which I don't agree with. I just don't think Jin is so bad that he should have to do multiple quads more than Javier to catch him.

Actually Jin long is quite terrible, his short is better. I think both got too high PCS's, but the gap was about right. I also sometimes don't like wins on PCS, but this mark should be very well reflected when between skaters is such big gap in skating quality

 

[Violet Bliss]

Jin can be expected to score much higher than he did at COC as it was his Senior GP debut after all. PCS may take some time to improve but he has time at 18. GOE may increase much this very season.

Patrick was the original COP baby star and in just a few years since his rise, we have had Hanyu and now Jin. Who's to say Jin will be an isolated exception as far as jumping abilities go? Will ISU reconsider and restructure the scoring system?

I would very much like to know Plushenko's and Joubert's thoughts on Jin's COC stunner of a debut.

 

[Tavi...]

I think it's a very interesting problem facing the ISU.

Jin took silver primarily on the basis of 1 beautifully executed quad Lz and 3 other poorly-executed but fully rotated quads. Although the rest of his program wasn't awful, to me, at least, it was not very satisfying. I know others feel differently.

He wasn't awarded absurdly high PCS - low 70s - but even if his PCS had been lowered by 10 points, he still would have beat Han Yan by 5+ points.

Does the ISU just sit back and say, look at what we've wrought, this kid's jumping ability is so disproportionate that almost no one else will be able to compete with him, even if he never improves a single thing about his performance?

If not, what will they do?

 

[Mrs. P]

I think one thing to keep in mind is that Boyang's strategy is extremely high risk/high reward. Yes, he received a huge reward at COC, but will he be able to maintain that level of jump execution for an entire season?

We've seen this from Boyang before. Back in 2013-2014 Jr. Grand Prix final, he came behind (he was 5th after the SP) to win the whole competition with a FS that included three quads. But then he was off the podium at Jr. Worlds after popping several jumps.

During the 2014-2015 season, Boyang struggled in the JGPF. He was second after the SP but then dropped to 5th after 3 falls and a zayak. But then at Jr. Worlds, he again came from behind (5th) to win the FS and win silver overall by doing another 3-quad program.

So it will be interesting to see how he will fare this season.

 

[jace93]

I think one thing to keep in mind is that Boyang's strategy is extremely high risk/high reward. Yes, he received a huge reward at COC, but will he be able to maintain that level of jump execution for an entire season?

We've seen this from Boyang before. Back in 2014 Jr. Grand Prix final, he came behind (he was 5th after the SP) to win the whole competition with a FS that included three quads. But then he was off the podium at Jr. Worlds after popping several jumps.

During the 2014-2015 season, Boyang struggled in the JGPF. He was second after the SP but then dropped to 5th after 3 falls and a zayak. But then at Jr. Worlds, he again came from behind (5th) to win the FS and win overall by doing another 3-quad program.

So it will be interesting to see how he will fare this season.

Slight correction he was silver overall, essentially because he received (rightly so IMO) very inferior pcs to Uno...

 

[NicoleH]

I think PCS is too inflated on the men's side. Jin's LP PCS in China was low 7's, and Javier's was around low 9's. That's fair. However, the difference in their PCS scores were about the BV of two quads, which I don't agree with. I just don't think Jin is so bad that he should have to do multiple quads more than Javier to catch him.

The problem with COC scoring is that fernandez also has poor skating skills and doesn't deserve 91 pcs, especially when he had so many mistakes. Even when he's clean he deserves like 81 pcs. He's not Chan or Hanyu or even Jason. He doesn't deserve to get so much pcs inflation.

Mrs. P, btw Boyang didn't win overall at jwc. Shoma won overall.