Mishin's opinion on components based on Jin

[Violet Bliss]

I am actually fine with cap on PCS at 100 AS LONG as everyone get to be marked correctly on a relative basis. At some point doesn't matter if Patrick earns 100 PCS but if he doesn't bring enough tech to be competitive, then he doesn't deserve to win over someone outscores him in TES massively in an Olympic standard sport. I hope Patrick's return should have a dampening effect on everyone's PCS compare to last year (just like Mao's return on the ladies), just like when he, Daisukeb T, Jeremy Abbott were still competing. PCS should always be adjusted to the field in accordance to quality of programs and performances on the day rather than absolutes.

Whether some skaters deserve their PCS is another issue all together.

My point is not about the fair scoring of PCS or the results of current individual competitors. Super jumpers like Jin will do very well but not better than the well rounded best, yet. It is about the characteristics of the sport itself in the future.

 

[Icey]

If figure skating is a sport, I question that TES and PCS (which really is a more subjective judgment) should be balanced. Even before Bojang's skate made this an issue, I would have preferred TES be given a somehwat heavier weight than PCS. If they want the status quo to prevail, maybe the number of jumping passes will need to be lowered or some other restriction? instituted. Artistry and PCS are not equivalencies. Actually SS, for example, seems more of an TES matter to me than one of PCS.

 

[Violet Bliss]

If figure skating is a sport, I question that TES and PCS (which really is a more subjective judgment) should be balanced. Even before Bojang's skate made this an issue, I would have preferred TES be given a somehwat heavier weight than PCS. If they want the status quo to prevail, maybe the number of jumping passes will need to be lowered or some other restriction? instituted. Artistry and PCS are not equivalencies. Actually SS, for example, seems more of an TES matter to me than one of PCS.

There are efforts and attempts to make PCS, as well as GOE within the TES, less subjective with the bullet points for judges to go by.

3 of the 5 PC are about skills but they are not technical elements but skills displayed throughout the program, thus program components.

Whether figure skating should be more athletic, artistic, or balanced is also an ongoing debate. I'm going for balanced.

 

[OS]

My point is not about the fair scoring of PCS or the results of current individual competitors. Super jumpers like Jin will do very well but not better than the well rounded best, yet. It is about the characteristics of the sport itself in the future.

Well all I know is my worst nightmare would be something like quadless Jason Brown beating 4 quads BYJ (Bae Yong-joon :luv17 due to PCS. Mr. Brown is someone capable of getting almost 94 PCS at home, Further adjustment in PCS scale value would have put him over 100 PCS. How many skaters in the world are capable of 100 TES?

I am already unable to process how 3t3t programs can beating 3lz3t shorts for ladies due to of stupid markings in PCS. Instead of increasing the scale of PCS, they should just to adjust rewarding PCS properly and make greater use of the 5.0 to 10.0 range.

 

[Tutto]

Aleksander Lakernik gave his opinion here:

http://fsrussia.ru/intervyu/1409-al...ost-v-figurnom-katanii-ogranichit-nelzya.html

I'll try to post a summary translate later

Summary:
Lakernik who is a chairman of ISU tech committee outlines some worrying tendencies in judging:
- though difficult elements already have highest base value some judges tend to mark these higher regardless of the actual quality of execution, e.g. they 'forgive' in quads what they would not 'forgive' in triple jumps - this is not right and this is a point to be discussed
- increase in PCS due to inclusion in program ultra difficult elements - should not be linked to PCS

He concludes that he is not against increase in difficulty but it has to be combined with quality that's how system is designed

There is a lot more but I have no time sadly

 

[Mathman]

If figure skating is a sport, I question that TES and PCS (which really is a more subjective judgment) should be balanced. Even before Bojang's skate made this an issue, I would have preferred TES be given a somehwat heavier weight than PCS. If they want the status quo to prevail, maybe the number of jumping passes will need to be lowered or some other restriction? instituted. Artistry and PCS are not equivalencies. Actually SS, for example, seems more of an TES matter to me than one of PCS.

That is a good point. Under 6.0 the division was between "tech" and "artistry," and the scoring system had an even balance between the two. Under CoP this was thrown out in favor of a division between "elements" and "whole program." It is not "50% tech and 50% artistry " any more, it is "50% elements and and 50% whole program." (TES means "Total Element Score, not "Technical Score.")

The "whole program" contains the artsy components P&E, CH, and INT, as well as the techy components SS and Tr. On the element side, the base values are tech and the GOEs are a mixture of tech and "quality." All told, the new system comes in at about 65% tech and 35% artistry. If a lot of Boyang Jins appear on the scene the ratio may change to 70-30 for these skaters, while for more "holistic" skaters the ratio will be adjusted in the opposite direction.

As for Patrick Chan, it is his skating skills that set him apart, not so much his performance qualities (cf. Takahashi or Lambiel). In figure skating it is literally "different strokes for different folks." :yes:

 

[OS]

Summary:
Lakernik who is a chairman of ISU tech committee outlines some worrying tendencies in judging:
- though difficult elements already have highest base value some judges tend to mark these higher regardless of the actual quality of execution, e.g. they 'forgive' in quads what they would not 'forgive' in triple jumps - this is not right and this is a point to be discussed
- increase in PCS due to inclusion in program ultra difficult elements - should not be linked to PCS

He concludes that he is not against increase in difficulty but it has to be combined with quality that's how system is designed

There is a lot more but I have no time sadly

Thank you very much for the translation... I'd like him to describe how Russian men got their PCS then, because honestly ... I don't get it. If they want to apply the judging standard, then apply them consistently.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Well all I know is my worst nightmare would be something like quadless Jason Brown beating 4 quads BYJ (Bae Yong-joon :luv17 due to PCS. Mr. Brown is someone capable of getting almost 94 PCS at home, Further adjustment in PCS scale value would have put him over 100 PCS. How many skaters in the world are capable of 100 TES?

I am already unable to process how 3t3t programs can beating 3lz3t shorts for ladies due to of stupid markings in PCS. Instead of increasing the scale of PCS, they should just to adjust rewarding PCS properly and make greater use of the 5.0 to 10.0 range.

If the TES and PCS are fairly scored under the current system, then if a quadless skater beats someone with higher technical difficulties, then so be it and my sympathy for your nightmare. The system is known and for everybody to exploit fairly.

My concern is with time the system itself does not reflect its equal emphasis on both technical and presentation aspects any more but encourages skaters to train harder for one and not another.

In fact, just a few years ago, there were complaints that the system did not acknowledge and reward the high risk quads enough and it was adjusted to encourage more quads which very few were able to do at the time. It seems the change is extremely successful and now it's the skating aspects that some are concerned are not acknowledged and rewarded enough.

The pendulum continues to swing. All systems need to be reevaluated and adjusted to the time.

 

[OS]

If the TES and PCS are fairly scored under the current system, then if a quadless skater beats someone with higher technical difficulties, then so be it and my sympathy for your nightmare. The system is known and for everybody to exploit fairly.

My concern is with time the system itself does not reflect its equal emphasis on both technical and presentation aspects any more but encourages skaters to train harder for one and not another.

In fact, just a few years ago, there were complaints that the system did not acknowledge and reward the high risk quads enough and it was adjusted to encourage more quads which very few were able to do at the time. It seems the change is extremely successful and now it's the skating aspects that some are concerned are not acknowledged and rewarded enough.

The pendulum continues to swing. All systems need to be reevaluated and adjusted to the time.

It is also about balance. 2 quads I can perhaps grudgingly understand IF the artistry is TRULY outstanding and not one of national inflation. but 4??!! At some point there's should be tipping point that people question if this is a sport or is this really a points game.

I agree in principle that all system should evaluated and adjusted to time, but it is a matter of theory vs practice. Problem is EVEN if you have the best system in the world, if it is not the right time, having the the right people, having the right condition for it to be effective, it will simply be the wrong system.

 

[Mathman]

My concern is with time the system itself does not reflect its equal emphasis on both technical and presentation aspects any more but encourages skaters to train harder for one and not another.

I can easily see why a young and talented skater would go for tech first and worry about presentation later. He sees in the scale of values: Quad Lutz = 13.6 points. That's money in the bank, if you can do it.

Then he reads, under the P&E component:

Physical, emotional, and intellectual involvement.

In all skating disciplines each skater must be physically committed, sincere in emotion,
and equal in comprehension of the music and in execution of all movement.

So which should I do, grab 13.6 points or try to convince the judges of the sincerity of my emotions?

 

[Violet Bliss]

It is also about balance. 2 quads I can perhaps grudgingly understand IF the artistry is TRULY outstanding and not one of national inflation. but 4??!! At some point there's should be tipping point that people question if this is a sport or is this really a points game.

I agree in principle that all system should evaluated and adjusted to time, but it is a matter of theory vs practice. Problem is EVEN if you have the best system in the world, if it is not the right time, having the the right people, having the right condition for it to be effective, it will simply be the wrong system.

Many systems are wrong, either originally with wrong premises or they become outdated. Many are the former but their fallacies and devastating effects may only show up a very long time after, often due to cover up or biases of those who benefit from them. I include modern agriculture, medicine, monetary and economic systems among them.

As for the subject at hand, I don't think it's an issue at all with just Jin and a few times a few others have gone over 100 TES. However, the trend as well as Jin's capacity to reach much higher TES are obvious. We need to see how things develop in the (near) future to get serious about adjustment. If Jin's is a phenomenon to score extremely high Total Scores or even just crazy TES under the current system, more power to him. I think it is a real concern only if winning with extremely unbalanced scores becomes frequent.

 

[Perdita]

Boyang earned his TES fair and square and if he can jump with better quality and earn more GOE and therefore even higher TES, kudos to him. If he improves his skating skills and other program components while doing 5 quads in his LP and smashes Total Scores records, then I to his incredible awesomeness and crown him the greatest of all times with total conviction.

However, I think he brings out two concerns. One is the ongoing worries about the risks and the tolls on the young bodies training and attempting such feats. The other is about the trend to up the TES way beyond 100 via number of quads because PCS, and so called Artistry aspects of figure skating, is capped at 100, thus leading to the imbalance of core value and appreciation of figure skating as both athletic and artistic. Therefore, some of us wonder if the scoring system should be adjusted to bring the achievable top values of TES and PCS to about equal.

Thanks!
Okay, so you basically mean that TES and PCS should be balanced in order to encourage skaters to work harder on both of the two aspects, besides the physical risk concerns? Alright, that's agreeable to me to a certain extent, although I don't really want ISU to be constantly adjusting the rules in order to enforce "the ideal figure skating" since I believe that the rules should leave room for skaters to express what they think is an ideal skating is. But yes, in the end, TES and PCS probably needs to be balanced in order to leave such room, too.

 

[Tavi...]

Well all I know is my worst nightmare would be something like quadless Jason Brown beating 4 quads BYJ (Bae Yong-joon :luv17 due to PCS. Mr. Brown is someone capable of getting almost 94 PCS at home, Further adjustment in PCS scale value would have put him over 100 PCS. How many skaters in the world are capable of 100 TES?

I am already unable to process how 3t3t programs can beating 3lz3t shorts for ladies due to of stupid markings in PCS. Instead of increasing the scale of PCS, they should just to adjust rewarding PCS properly and make greater use of the 5.0 to 10.0 range.

You know, I really don't understand why you keep harping on this.

The highest PCS Jason has ever earned internationally is 89.14 at WTT, for a virtually flawless FS. His TES was 87.55 without a quad. Javi's TES at COC was 86.84 with 3 quads - and his PCS was 91.52, even though he fell once and got negative GOE on 2 of his 3 quads.

You've frequently said that Jason's "inflated" PCS of 94 at US nationals is unfair because it leads to inflation internationally. But when I pointed out that Jin's PCS of 72 was the same as Dolensky's at SC, you thought it was okay because Jin already had a reputation as someone could do a 4Z and as a junior, and Dolensky didn't. In other words, you were okay with Jin's PCS inflation because of his reputation.

If you think inflation is a problem, fine, but your point would be more credible if you took a consistent position.

 

[OS]

You know, I really don't understand why you keep harping on this.

The highest PCS Jason has ever earned internationally is 89.14 at WTT, for a virtually flawless FS. His TES was 87.55 without a quad. Javi's TES at COC was 86.84 with 3 quads - and his PCS was 91.52, even though he fell once and got negative GOE on 2 of his 3 quads.

You've frequently said that Jason's "inflated" PCS of 94 at US nationals is unfair because it leads to inflation internationally. But when I pointed out that Jin's PCS of 72 was the same as Dolensky's at SC, you thought it was okay because Jin already had a reputation as someone could do a 4Z and as a junior, and Dolensky didn't. In other words, you were okay with Jin's PCS inflation because of his reputation.

If you think inflation is a problem, fine, but your point would be more credible if you took a consistent position.

A few issues got mixed up here, let's separate them one by one.

I used Jason as an example because he currently has the highest PCS for someone without a quad nationally or internationally, otherwise who do you suggest I use as an example to illustrate my point?

Tim's SC PCS comes from ISU judges unfamiliarity with him and lack of reputation (he was a substitute for Josh, his first GP at age 23), if he continued on the same standard, his PCS will rise. All skaters went through this, just look at Hanyu's first season PCS vs massive climb in the second. I already stated that I agree he was undermarked... however this has nothing to do with why Jin got his PCS which is right in line with the competition he participated.

Jason's inflated PCS at home is even HIGHER than Patrick Chan and Hanyu at their own nationals and world records. If you really think about it. Why should Adam, Max, Jeremy, Josh compete with the likes of Patrick and Hanyu in their own nationals (+actually higher)? They are there to compete against Jason Brown. If you really look into the score history, inflation rarely applies consistently across the whole competition for all skaters, but it is usually the product of when judges tries or unintentionally propped up one skater in particular, then everyone follow him then more or less got relative scoring, but not always accurate (some may be held down), bit luck of the draw really. PCS is easiest thing to inflate, while TES is more limited, but a fairer system should be one if you inflate pcs, tes should be inflated to be in balance with inflation. As the score system require both sides to be in balance, it makes it unfair for those who compete mostly on TES like Max, and there should be room for all type of skaters to compete in they way they want either through TES or PCS, figure skating is both.

------------

Put it this way. IF you are fine with the way Jason have been scored, and they do decide increase the ceiling of PCS much higher... what is stopping Patrick or Hanyu all of a sudden decide not to put out any quads and beat the likes of Max with 3 quads or BYJ with 4 quads purely on the strength of their 100+ PCS with dumbed down tech programs and better consistency? It 's Jason's strategy last year, and Carolina's 2012 strategy. Their PCS is certainly likely to be much higher than Jason Brown with similar tech program, and with an increase in PCS values, they will certainly have a higher chance to beat Jason or Max with 2 quads (since performance/choreography usually suffer because of the quads) with their higher PCS? To me that idea is pretty outrageous and makes the sport noncompetitive.

 

[Mrs. P]

In any case, I think you're not going to see Jason win any more competition with quadless programs because his team clearly knows he needs one, hence him trying it out right now. The quadless strategy worked for a while to achieve certain goals -- get on the Olympic team, even win a U.S. Championship. But now the stakes are higher, you have a re-surging Max Aaron at home and a whole slew of new senior skaters internationally who can do multiple quads.

The same goes with Boyang Jin. I think his current strategy will help him with certain goals, like a medal on the GP, but I don't think it's sustainable. I think eventually he will have to address the PCS side because he is going to get beat by skaters like Shoma who have fewer quads but a more complete skating package.


Here are a few tweets worth discussing (thanks to browsing the Joshua Farris Fan fest thread):

From Josh:
https://twitter.com/joshDfarris/status/662751409641779200

Calling it #figureskating is debatable. I'm tired of seeing my friends hurting themselves just to do the most jumps.

He posted it on Nov. 6, which would have been before the COC FS. I don't think he was talking about Boyang in particular, but just lamenting about the state of figure skating.

From Doug Mattis, a former US competitor and figure skating coach responded to Josh with series of tweets:
https://twitter.com/DougMattis/status/662795829195878400

Those w/amazing jumps still benefit because risk, & programs would have to be more interesting/entertaining.

https://twitter.com/DougMattis/status/662795829195878400

Less jumps as a rule, forcing creativity, choreo, & effective penalty 4risking 30% success-rate jump +meaningful.

I think Mattis and I share a certain viewpoint in that more quads helps in BV, it is an inherently risky strategy.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Kinda interesting that Mishin is going after a skater for focusing primarily on jumps, especially when it was big elements and big tricks that brought his own skaters to the top (and kept Plushenko at the top, and possibly Liza too).

 

[Violet Bliss]

Kinda interesting that Mishin is going after a skater for focusing primarily on jumps, especially when it was big elements and big tricks that brought his own skaters to the top (and kept Plushenko at the top, and possibly Liza too).

Is Jin's skating Man enough for Mishin and Plushenko? Also wonder if Joubert is happy with the quad development in figure skating? Jin should be their poster boy.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Is Jin's skating Man enough for Mishin and Plushenko? Also wonder if Joubert is happy with the quad development in figure skating? Jin should be their poster boy.

Hah maybe he's just upset that Jin "stole" Plu's music? Or maybe a bit miffed that Plu never landed a 4Z, but Jin just landed TWO.

 

[qwertyskates]

i think there's also psychological warfare by the Russians, a preemptive strike, all the high TES guys and girls are going to be put on notice. It will not only affect Jin but all the top tier skaters like Mao and Yuzuru who *choose* a more difficult layout. Imagine it no longer pays for the ladies to try 3a, or for men to try quads, the "wow" factor will gradually be lost. Under the current system, a low BV but well-skated program like Patrick's can beat a difficult program with flaws like Yuzuru's with GOEs and PCS. A lower BV and mediocre skate with a fall and stumbles by a high PCS skater like Javi still wins over a much higher TES with flaws like Jin's, so TES did not help both good jumpers to win under the current judging system, imagine if the PCS privilege is further raised, there will be absolutely no point to pursue any sort of technical difficulties anymore.

There will no longer be any room for different skaters to bring their different styles and strengths to have a go at the podium. The programs will all have the same jumping passes and layout, optimised for the lowest risks and highest easy PCS rewards, everyone will reach for the lowest hanging fruit.

 

[silverlake22]

Jin is really dangerous. His FS was quite sloppy and he still scored 171 points! And that's with lowish components of only 72. Imagine if he skates his FS clean! The TES of about 100 was deserved and there's tons of room for that to improve. I think he has potential artistically, he's just not there yet. Also, he just turned 18, so he's of the same generation as Uno and Pitkeev, so still quite young really, and he's boyish just like the other 2. In time, he will grow up physically and I think/hope his overall skating will improve along with that.