- Joined
- Dec 3, 2014
Open that can of Worms and all the people would be harping out on the negativity on a decent jump.
Mishin's opinion on components based on Jin
- Thread starter plushyfan
- Start date
Open that can of Worms and all the people would be harping out on the negativity on a decent jump.
They *can* but for now it is still balanced, as hitting any close to 100 is still an exception. Same happens for PCs.
Right now, Jin is sort of complimentary of Jason - monster TES and soso PCs and GOE vs soso TES and high PCs and GOE. They both don't really win (Jin would be 4th at worlds 2014 with his CoC performance - Jason actually was 4th).
If Jin start hitting over 100 TES consistently, it may sinal there will be an issue.
If several skaters start hitting over 100 TES consistently, it will be an issue because it will not be balanced anymore.
Now, they will not change the system. They will not drasically change how PCs / GOE / whatever is scored. They will just re-factor PCs because it is the easiest solution, with less system changes needed, less additional judges training, lesss potential weird issues that need calibration to make it balanced. Its cheap and easy and works. It iseven compatible with old results - those can be easily recalculated to match the new system.
Watever we propose crazy stuff, i'm very doubtful any major change will happen when you have such a small and easy change to balance the system out.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
Boyang is one person. One person who hasn't even unseated a shaky Javi yet. (And as much as I dislike his LP, had he skated it perfectly, I'd have no problems with him beating Javi that night).
I'm not seeing unbalance here--if anything, I thought Chan's 190 at SC was more unbalanced.*dodges pitchforks*
I'd agree. With the last part too.
If anything, I'd say the current system puts quality over difficulty. Yes they raised the BV of some jumps, but earn 2 points more in PCS and you're still fine without the big jumps.
The difficulty needs to be rewarded too, those quads ain't jumping themselves. For now, the system will/would be fine if the judges do their job right. No bonus PCS for difficult jumps. No high GOE for an element just because 'hey, it's landed'. If you think the PCS gap between 'different class' skaters, like Javi vs Jin, isn't big enough, how about the judges actually start using the lower part of the PCS scale?
No changes in the system will help if the judges mess up anyway.
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2014
If they limit the amount of quads...UGH!
I absolutely love the athleticism and if these athletes like Jin or Javi want to push themselves and their bodies to the extreme...who are we to stand in the way? I consider figure skating the most elegant "extreme" sport. Other similar revolutionary sports celebrate these advancements--snowboarding/skateboarding, etc. We seem to denigrate the achievment? I don't get it.
I absolutely love the athleticism and if these athletes like Jin or Javi want to push themselves and their bodies to the extreme...who are we to stand in the way? I consider figure skating the most elegant "extreme" sport. Other similar revolutionary sports celebrate these advancements--snowboarding/skateboarding, etc. We seem to denigrate the achievment? I don't get it.
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2014
Moriel :agree:
THATS EXACTLY the Problem. The idea of the System WAS that the highest possible TES equals the highest PCS possible.
now that the highest possible TES is rising with all the quads, the multiplicator for the PCS should be changed. That TES and PCS equal out again.
Not yet.
Just check PCs and TES on last worlds for example (GPs arent a good one because of the TES trim) - i´m using those but similar patterns can be observed on other competitions.
here we go, 5 highest TES and 5 highest PCs
5. 83,32 - 80
4. 88,24 - 84,6
3. 88,28 - 88,36
2. 93,1 - 88,64
1. 93,47 - 89,06
well yeah, they arent equal, but they are roughly 1 to 1 still - in low 90s / high 80s
There will be the problem when this will stop happening - exceptional TES will be stably higher than exceptional PCs.
The idea of the system was not that highest possible TES equals to highest possible PCs, clearly, as there is no such thing as highest possible TES - you know, one can in theory do a 8 quints program, it is just not happening yet. The idea of the system was that TES and PCs have similar levels:
great TES has same value as great PCs
good TES has same value as good PCs.
For example, right now:
95 in TES is exceptionally great. 95 in PCs is also exceptionally great. You can count the skaters who can hit each of those on one hand.
70 in TES is a good TES. You arent a top skater, but you are quite good still. 70 in PCs - is what they say about Jin, he has nice lines and will develop ^^
So it is roughly 1 to 1 now for higher values.
It actually gets messed for lower values (the "low" PCs are higher than "Low" TES - just look at the very same Worlds 2015).
It is slightely more skewed on SP than on FS, where exceptional PCs are in their 45 points, and exceptional TES is already hitting the 48-50 points.
I just wonder, should i maybe draw some pics and share to add to the discussion? Maybe more mathy people will come over too =D
I just wonder, should i maybe draw some pics and share to add to the discussion? Maybe more mathy people will come over too =D
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Actually, FWIW, in his SP here, Jin scored 53.76. A cursory review of ISU personal best scores shows that Hanyu scored 54.84 at the 2014 Olympics. Chan scored 52.70 at Worlds 2013. Machida scored 52.82 at 2014 Worlds and Javi achieved 51.42 there. Denis Ten scored 52.86 at 4CC2015. Kovtun achieved 51.38 at 2013 Rostelecom. Plushenko scored 51.10 at Euro 2012. Voronov scored 50.08 at Rostelecom 2014. Han Yan scored 50.25 at COC 2013. So quite a few men are routinely breaking 50 TES in the SP, not just the very top men. And since this info is just drawn from the top of the list of ISU PBs, it doesn't take into account how many times some of these skaters have hit 50+ in TES.
In contrast, fewer guys have exceeded 45 PB in PCS. Chan scored 47.18 at the Olympics; Hanyu scored 46.61. Machida earned 45.39 at Worlds 2014. Takahashi scored 45.14 at NHK2013. Fernandez scored 44.99 at Worlds 2014. Ten scored 44.75 at 4CC 2015. So many people think Jason has overly high PCS, but in fact, his PB is only 42.61, at WTT 2015.
For many of these guys there's a fairly high gap between their PB TES & PCS. Han Yan, Plushenko, Voronov, & Kovtun all have gaps of about 10 points. Jin's gap is 17 points. Hanyu's & Ten's gaps are both 8+. Machida's is 7+. Fernandez' is 6+. Chan's is 5+. Jason's is 3+.
So for me, TES and PCS are already unbalanced. Jason and perhaps Patrick are really the only ones whose scores are somewhat in balance, and Jason's PCS probably won't increase much unless/until he lands a clean quad. What this also makes clear to me is why Jin's high TES score stands out - the gap with his PCS is quite a bit higher than the gap we see for other skaters we normally think of as more tech heavy and less artistic, such as Kovtun.
As I said, I didn't do a thorough review of all data, so feel free to prove that my analysis is sloppy or wrong!
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2014
I'm having trouble understanding why we need to 'balance' the total points of TES and that of PCS... 
(and sorry, if it's already discussed)
To me, what seems to matter is the balance between the value of TES and PCS, by which I mean: now, a quad is worth about 5 points more than a triple in BV, but is earning 5 points in PCS as hard (i.e. difficult, requiring hard work, or simply, deserving) as adding another quad in place of a triple? Raising the PCS factor will change such value balance between TES and PCS, in other words, it is going to alter the definition of difficulties between each jump, won't it?
It sounds quite ridiculous, to me, if a technical skater's (ex. Boyang) strategy to catch up a quality skater (ex. Patrick) by adding up TES according to the current rule in fact leads to a rule change that devalues what he is trying to do.
Do I sound nonsense?
(and sorry, if it's already discussed)To me, what seems to matter is the balance between the value of TES and PCS, by which I mean: now, a quad is worth about 5 points more than a triple in BV, but is earning 5 points in PCS as hard (i.e. difficult, requiring hard work, or simply, deserving) as adding another quad in place of a triple? Raising the PCS factor will change such value balance between TES and PCS, in other words, it is going to alter the definition of difficulties between each jump, won't it?
It sounds quite ridiculous, to me, if a technical skater's (ex. Boyang) strategy to catch up a quality skater (ex. Patrick) by adding up TES according to the current rule in fact leads to a rule change that devalues what he is trying to do.
Do I sound nonsense?
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- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
if we want to continue to enjoy figure skating as 'a bridge between sport & art' (I do) then the solution is obvious - to limit a number of quads in the sp to two and in the lp to three. Jumping beans then will have no choice but to concentrate on upping their SS & presentation as they should. TBH if it was up to me I would limit it to 1 in the sp and 2 in the lp. I am sick & tired having to watch 'amazing' falls. I'd take a beautifully executed triple from the difficult entry with a good flow and most importantly fitted into the choreo, any day over fully rotated fall on the quad.
Both Jin's programs at Coc gave me a zero enjoyment. Only MIshin could call him a quite elegant but then he would. He is of opinion that LIza's Bolero was one of best choreographed short programs of all times possible THE best. what else to add...
Both Jin's programs at Coc gave me a zero enjoyment. Only MIshin could call him a quite elegant but then he would. He is of opinion that LIza's Bolero was one of best choreographed short programs of all times possible THE best. what else to add...
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
Reading Mishin's comments is always amusing. Why don't we just admit that if BoYang had skated for Russia, Mishin will be singing to a completely different tune. Probably complain his PCS is not enough for bring out such historical technical content and difficulty is undervalued blah blah blah.
Or that BYJ had skate for USA, Japan or Canada, certain posters' feelings may certainly have changed about him and his markings.
Boyang's PCS is just fine and reflects what he brought out there relatively to the field. Mishin should be more concerned how it may effect their Russian men's PCS now judges may need to make adjustment in the field with Patrick on one end who deserve to lead the PCS, and Boyang on the other who deserve the TES.
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...oh and actually Quality is hugely UNDERVALUED in this sport since Vancouver with the reduction on 30% GOEs through out except on the 3A and quads. That is why you got Sotoko's tiny tick boxed system smallest 3lz3t of all time with maximum prerotation only some 0.9 away from Gracie's 3lz3ts.
It is only OVERVALUED in weighing 3T3T vs other difficult 3/3 combos. But why did you think they increased the base value of 3T as well? For who's greatest benefit, and for who's greatest disadvantage?
Or that BYJ had skate for USA, Japan or Canada, certain posters' feelings may certainly have changed about him and his markings.
Boyang's PCS is just fine and reflects what he brought out there relatively to the field. Mishin should be more concerned how it may effect their Russian men's PCS now judges may need to make adjustment in the field with Patrick on one end who deserve to lead the PCS, and Boyang on the other who deserve the TES.
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...oh and actually Quality is hugely UNDERVALUED in this sport since Vancouver with the reduction on 30% GOEs through out except on the 3A and quads. That is why you got Sotoko's tiny tick boxed system smallest 3lz3t of all time with maximum prerotation only some 0.9 away from Gracie's 3lz3ts.
It is only OVERVALUED in weighing 3T3T vs other difficult 3/3 combos. But why did you think they increased the base value of 3T as well? For who's greatest benefit, and for who's greatest disadvantage?
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- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
Aleksander Lakernik gave his opinion here:
http://fsrussia.ru/intervyu/1409-al...ost-v-figurnom-katanii-ogranichit-nelzya.html
I'll try to post a summary translate later
http://fsrussia.ru/intervyu/1409-al...ost-v-figurnom-katanii-ogranichit-nelzya.html
I'll try to post a summary translate later
IF two skaters lands a jump with both +3 across the board then they probably both landed a great jump anyway so whats the great need to differentiate between them? Its like 2 people getting A+ in a test...is one slightly better than the other maybe but at a certain point it does not matter! Its not like its different from your system anyways because they would probably end up with the same score anyways.
I really don't get this idea of "rebalancing" PCS because to me its just a way to hold down skaters who has superior technical ability over the rest of the field. So if there is a skater that can land 4Axel 5Toe then should we increase PCS differential just to make sure he doesn't win?
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
I'm having trouble understanding why we need to 'balance' the total points of TES and that of PCS...
To me, what seems to matter is the balance between the value of TES and PCS, by which I mean: now, a quad is worth about 5 points more than a triple in BV, but is earning 5 points in PCS as hard (i.e. difficult, requiring hard work, or simply, deserving) as adding another quad in place of a triple? Raising the PCS factor will change such value balance between TES and PCS, in other words, it is going to alter the definition of difficulties between each jump, won't it?
It sounds quite ridiculous, to me, if a technical skater's (ex. Boyang) strategy to catch up a quality skater (ex. Patrick) by adding up TES according to the current rule in fact leads to a rule change that devalues what he is trying to do.
Do I sound nonsense?
Boyang earned his TES fair and square and if he can jump with better quality and earn more GOE and therefore even higher TES, kudos to him. If he improves his skating skills and other program components while doing 5 quads in his LP and smashes Total Scores records, then I
to his incredible awesomeness and crown him the greatest of all times with total conviction.However, I think he brings out two concerns. One is the ongoing worries about the risks and the tolls on the young bodies training and attempting such feats. The other is about the trend to up the TES way beyond 100 via number of quads because PCS, and so called Artistry aspects of figure skating, is capped at 100, thus leading to the imbalance of core value and appreciation of figure skating as both athletic and artistic. Therefore, some of us wonder if the scoring system should be adjusted to bring the achievable top values of TES and PCS to about equal.
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Boyang earned his TES fair and square and if he can jump with better quality and earn more GOE and therefore even higher TES, kudos to him. If he improves his skating skills and other program components while doing 5 quads in his LP and smashes Total Scores records, then I
However, I think he brings out two concerns. One is the ongoing worries about the risks and the tolls on the young bodies training and attempting such feats. The other is about the trend to up the TES way beyond 100 via number of quads because PCS, and so called Artistry aspects of figure skating, is capped at 100, thus leading to the imbalance of core value and appreciation of figure skating as both athletic and artistic. Therefore, some of us wonder if the scoring system should be adjusted to bring the achievable top values of TES and PCS to about equal.
There is theoretically no top value of TES! You can't just hike up PCS because someone shows up with 4Lz because that is pushing the scales to the other direction. The message is don't bother upping you technical content because we are just gonna hike up PCS if you do so can't win and other artist like Tuktameshaeva can always beat you
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
I am actually fine with cap on PCS at 100 AS LONG as everyone get to be marked correctly on a relative basis. At some point doesn't matter if Patrick earns 100 PCS but if he doesn't bring enough tech to be competitive, then he doesn't deserve to win over someone outscores him in TES massively in an Olympic standard sport. I hope Patrick's return should have a dampening effect on everyone's PCS compare to last year (just like Mao's return on the ladies), just like when he, Daisukeb T, Jeremy Abbott were still competing. PCS should always be adjusted to the field in accordance to quality of programs and performances on the day rather than absolutes.
Whether some skaters deserve their PCS is another issue all together.
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- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
PCS is capped at 100 because the original assumed TES limit was 100.
There is no stopping the upping of TES and the great jumpers to up their PCS as well. However, PCS has a ceiling, which encourages the training for and attempts of the highest value elements, i.e. quads. This will be a concern when there are more skaters able to go quite a bit beyond 100 in TES because PCS is capped at 100. One can also say the great PCS skaters are handicapped by the limit.
It's not about making sure any super quad jumper could not win, but to look again at the scoring system which was based on equal value and emphasis on both athlete and presentation aspects. As it is, one aspect is capped and the other is limitless, thus the imbalance when more and more skaters can reach and go pass the originally assumed limit of 100 TES while the skating and presentation aspects may be neglected, changing the characteristics of figure skating the way we have appreciated and enjoyed it.
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