Must one stay on toe picks throughout scratch and back spins? | Golden Skate

Must one stay on toe picks throughout scratch and back spins?

Q

Query

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 28, 2015
I've been working on (forward) scratch spins and simple back spins with a group lesson coach. (It's summer. Only 2-3 people come to most of the "adult" lessons, so they are semi-private.)

The coach says that "scratch" implies that the toe pick lightly brushes the ice throughout the spin. And she says that back spins must be done that way too.

But some of my other coaches have had other ideas, spinning on other parts of the blade.

So, do "scratch spins" have to start and stay with the toe pick touching (or at least brushing) the ice? What about "back spins"?
 
Personally, the toepicks scratching on scratch and back scratch help me stay balanced, as those spins often have the most momentum if that makes sense?

Although, I am not completely spinning on my toepick, just occasionally 'scratching' a bit.
 
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It's a misconception that a "scratch" spin is supposed to "scratch." One of my coaches is so adamant about this fact that she insists we call it a "blur spin" instead. It's OK if your drag pick contacts the ice while you spin, but ideally your spins should be making the gentle whooshing sound that comes from spinning fully on the rocker, or even better yet, be totally silent.
 
Great!

My figure skating director basically agrees. She says spins, like a lot of skating, are not specific in terms of what part of the blade you use, or the exact body position. Which explains why coaches differ so much in what they teach. Of course some moves (like jumps) are specific as to inside and outside edges. But she says it is now OK to spin on inside edges, not just outside too.

But if things are so non-specific, it is not surprising to me that judges don't always agree.


I guess the "scratch spin" is called an "upright spin" (with a forwards entry?) by USFigureSkating...


I guess a reasonable way to see possible variations is to look online for videos from expert skaters and coaches.

E.g., here is a video of Karen Courtland Kelly. Her take is that (for scratch spins) you should stay off the toepick as much as possible (i.e., she treats it as a blur spin), and gives other tips about it. E.g., she says the exact body position is not well defined.
www.facebook.com

7K views · 123 reactions | Karen Courtland Kelly breaks down the keys to a good scratch spin and why she feels the name of the spin is confusing. | Figure Skating Technique

Karen Courtland Kelly breaks down the keys to a good scratch spin and why she feels the name of the spin is confusing.
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Reflecting these ideas, she says the "forward scratch spin" should more accurately be called a "backwards inside blur spin". She shows multiple entries, as well as doing a change foot to a backspin.

She comes across as so happy and enthusiastic! :)


I can't see the "members only" portion of the USFigureSkating.org website, because I no longer belong. (I would have to rejoin, if I wanted to test with them). E.g.,
https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/Coaches to Test Judges FAQ.pdf
is
"Singles/Pairs Manual for Test Judges"

Maybe it has more information on how spins are marked, that goes beyond the very non-specific info in the Rulebook, which is mostly just a copy of what the ISU Singles & pairs document says. Or maybe not.

And I suppose other non-U.S. national websites might be searched too.
 
Last edited:
Query said:
Great!

My figure skating director basically agrees. She says spins, like a lot of skating, are not specific in terms of what part of the blade you use, or the exact body position. Which explains why coaches differ so much in what they teach. Of course some moves (like jumps) are specific as to inside and outside edges. But she says it is now OK to spin on inside edges, not just outside too.

But if things are so non-specific, it is not surprising to me that judges don't always agree.


I guess the "scratch spin" is called an "upright spin" (with a forwards entry?) by USFigureSkating...


I guess a reasonable way to see possible variations is to look online for videos from expert skaters and coaches.

E.g., here is a video of Karen Courtland Kelly. Her take is that (for scratch spins) you should stay off the toepick as much as possible (i.e., she treats it as a blur spin), and gives other tips about it. E.g., she says the exact body position is not well defined.
www.facebook.com

7K views · 123 reactions | Karen Courtland Kelly breaks down the keys to a good scratch spin and why she feels the name of the spin is confusing. | Figure Skating Technique

Karen Courtland Kelly breaks down the keys to a good scratch spin and why she feels the name of the spin is confusing.
www.facebook.com www.facebook.com
Reflecting these ideas, she says the "forward scratch spin" should more accurately be called a "backwards inside blur spin". She shows multiple entries, as well as doing a change foot to a backspin.

She comes across as so happy and enthusiastic! :)


I can't see the "members only" portion of the USFigureSkating.org website, because I no longer belong. (I would have to rejoin, if I wanted to test with them). E.g.,
https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/Coaches to Test Judges FAQ.pdf
is
"Singles/Pairs Manual for Test Judges"

Maybe it has more information on how spins are marked, that goes beyond the very non-specific info in the Rulebook, which is mostly just a copy of what the ISU Singles & pairs document says. Or maybe not.

And I suppose other non-U.S. national websites might be searched too.
Click to expand...
The link you provided just goes to a document about rules for how coaches are allowed to judge.

There is a link within that document to the Test Manual for Singles Pairs:

So thanks for helping me find that.

That document does go into some detail about judging spins, but not in as fine detail as specifying which part of the blade the spin should be on. Mostly it refers test judges to the IJS GOE guidelines about positive and negative GOEs.

Those guidelines are readily available online. Do you need a link?

This test manual does offer some more detail for test judges:

There are four phases that should be considered and evaluated to mark properly the
spins of a free skate test These are:
! preparation
! entry
! rotation (speed, center, and position)
! exit.

An acceptable spin should have a controlled entry and exit, and have a distinct
position with the correct number of rotations with a consistent speed. Check the minimum
requirements for each test. Distinguish between total rotations and rotations in position.
Failure to hold spins in the required position for the required number of revolutions or to
attain the proper position is an error. A spin that is short by one or more revolutions
constitutes a significant error but a spin that is short by less than one (1) revolution
constitutes only a quality error. Traveling during a spin is also a quality error.

Judges should note the degree to which a spin meets or falls short of the
requirements. There is a difference between a skater for whom you have to slowly count to
the bare minimum number of rotations compared to a skater whose speed in the spin
leaves no doubt that the rotations are complete. On a positive note, skaters who can
immediately establish a spin position, strongly center the spin, rotate at a high rate of
speed, and exceed the number of revolutions required should be rewarded. Value is
added to a spin if it exhibits good style, changes in position of hands, legs, and body or a
change in rotational speed. These may occur in all three types of spins. However, judges
should note when spins are characterized by ill-defined positions, loss of speed, traveling,
or fewer than required positions.
Click to expand...

So no, it doesn't get into nitty-gritty details about how skaters should execute the spins. It's
not a coaching manual. For judges' purposes, they just need to know the requirements (e.g.,
number of revolutions) and how well each element meets positive quality guidelines or contains
errors or quality weaknesses.

Which do not get into what part of the blade the skater uses. Except for the advanced
skills that count as IJS level features: changing edge during a spin or the new "difficult blade
feature" (using only the toepick heel of the blade for a novelty feature, usually for a single
revolution). Those features are determined by the tech panel in competition. A judge would
note whether the skater attempted these advanced features and reward on a test if
performed successfully.

Not explicitly covered in these or IJS judging guidelines, but sometimes beginner backspins
and back sitspins never get onto a back outside edge and only use the forward inside
edge, which is considered lower quality. That's why the IJS edge change feature was
modified about 15 years ago to only count for "in sit (only from backward inside to forward
outside), camel, Layback, Biellmann or difficult variation of an upright position"
 
TL,DR:
Judges don't care whether your toepicks scratch the ice on upright spins, they just care about speed, centering, and control.
Coaches can help you with the best techniques to achieve those qualities.
 
Wow, gkelly, you spent a lot of time on your reply. Thank you very much!

I tried to find a link with GOE info myself.

I found

Not a lot of specifics...

Has some info



ISU handbook: Has some fairly readable info. Nothing on the blade position that I could find, but mentions edges in spins. Maybe this is the link you meant? It gives more specific readable info on types of spins, entrances, exits, and what is awarded extra points than anything else I have found. It even has some photographs, something that USFSA rulebooks tend to lack.

Inside ISU

Corporate Home - International Skating Union
isu.org isu.org

ISU Communications: Not very organized


Huh? I don't know enough to understand SOV tables.


Has some comments about blade position.


Similar for Synchronized Skating.

Some unofficial sources:


Has a little on spins.

skatewithaimee.com

New Rules for Figure Skating SPINS in the 2022-2023 Season

There are always the most questions about figure skating spins. That makes a lot of sense because spins carry a lot of weight when it comes to increasing your scores. In this video, I take a deep dive into the rule chang...
skatewithaimee.com skatewithaimee.com


Or did you have another link in mind?


Perhaps the ISI handbook is easier to understand for low level skaters...
 
Query said:
Has some info
Click to expand...
This is info on how the technical panel determines spin levels (and calls for other elements). Which of course the skaters and coaches need to know so they can plan their spins accordingly.
Query said:

ISU handbook: Has some fairly readable info. Nothing on the blade position that I could find, but mentions edges in spins. Maybe this is the link you meant? It gives more specific readable info on types of spins, entrances, exits, and what is awarded extra points than anything else I have found. It even has some photographs, something that USFSA rulebooks tend to lack.
Click to expand...
The full detailed technical panel handbook that covers most details about how the tech panel calls all the different kinds of singles elements.

Query said:

Huh? I don't know enough to understand SOV tables.
Click to expand...
No need to worry about them unless you're competing under IJS. And even then, you would just do what you can do within the requirements for your level. You probably don't need to strategize how much each element's base value is worth.

Query said:
Click to expand...
This is the primary Singles & Pairs document that is published each spring for the upcoming season. It includes the general calling guidelines that the tech panels use, with new changes highlighted, and the GOE and PCS guidelines that judges use.

Page 8 has the positive GOE guidelines for singles elements; page 10 has the negative GOE reduction guidelines. Then there are some general comments about GOEs, and about PCS.

Those guidelines are all the judges are officially evaluating. They're not asked to evaluate the details of the spinning technique, just the results as to whether the spin meets any of the positive bullet points on p. 8 or shows any of the errors on p. 10.

Items like "Poor fly and/or incorrect take-off or landing" (for flying spins) or "Poor, weak or awkward position(s)" are pretty subjective -- there's no detailed written explanation of what is considered poor. Judges who were skaters will be informed by the technique they learned when they were skating, or coaching if they did that too. Other judges would just go by what looks good or looks poor/weak.

In terms of scratch spins, they might also go by the sound, if they can hear it over the music (or not hear it at all if the skater is spinning only on the sweet spot of the blade).

But there's no rule that the toepicks must or must not scratch the ice in that spin position. What matters is that the spin is fast, centered, and controlled. And if possible looks effortless.

Query said:
Perhaps the ISI handbook is easier to understand for low level skaters...
Click to expand...
As far as I know that is also a rulebook and not a how-to book.
 
gkelly said:
Items like "Poor fly and/or incorrect take-off or landing" (for flying spins) or "Poor, weak or awkward position(s)" are pretty subjective -- there's no detailed written explanation of what is considered poor. Judges who were skaters will be informed by the technique they learned when they were skating, or coaching if they did that too. Other judges would just go by what looks good or looks poor/weak.

In terms of scratch spins, they might also go by the sound, if they can hear it over the music (or not hear it at all if the skater is spinning only on the sweet spot of the blade).

But there's no rule that the toepicks must or must not scratch the ice in that spin position. What matters is that the spin is fast, centered, and controlled. And if possible looks effortless.
Click to expand...
All these years of spinning and I never really paid attention to what I sounded like. I was taught "whole body skating" -- that your whole body is involved in each element and not to fuss about just one part of you, like your free leg position or the angle of one shoulder, and lose sight of what the rest of you is doing as a package deal. So I tried assorted spin entries and directions and found sometimes I scratch, sometimes I don't. Seems to depend on the method of entry.

So I stopped listening and went back to the work I'd set for the day. I've never noticed my noise or lack of same before and I doubt if the judges ever did. I certainly never remember reading anything about scratchy/too quiet spins in any judges' notes I got. Only about how much I did or didn't travel, and how my whole-body position looked.
 
But
https://isu-d8g8b4b7ece7aphs.a03.az...ls-and-GOE-Season-2025-26-1745584466-4032.pdf
says you can get extra levels for difficult blade features and explains

Difficult blade feature: using the blade in a way that has a significant impact on the balance, control and execution of
the spin. The feature must be executed in camel, sit, Layback, Biellmann or difficult variation of an upright position. The
position must be maintained throughout the whole feature and can be achieved for example by spinning on the heel or
toe of the blade. The feature must be performed in control inside the spin and spinning must continue after the feature.
The difficult blade feature is not considered as a difficult exit.
Click to expand...

But maybe none of these things would affect low level skaters like me who might just want to test at low levels.

As far as noise - some people have claimed that certain blades are noisier than others, because of the way runners are mounted. E.g., Matrix I blades like mine clicked. Maybe non-metal runner mounts absorb some sound. I wonder if people worry about that. Maybe it has helped the popularity of MK Dance blades in ice dance - the rounded off and backwards facing drag pick makes less noise if it touches. Maybe the Eclipse Dance blade does that too. Though they might not be ideal for spins.
 
Query said:
But
https://isu-d8g8b4b7ece7aphs.a03.az...ls-and-GOE-Season-2025-26-1745584466-4032.pdf
says you can get extra levels for difficult blade features and explains

But maybe none of these things would affect low level skaters like me who might just want to test at low levels.
Click to expand...
They would only affect you if you are competing at an IJS level that permits all the features. In the US, I think that starts at Juvenile for standard track and for Adult Silver on adult track. If you're not competing at those levels or higher, you don't need to worry about it.

Even if are trying to get level 2 or higher on your spins, there are easier features to achieve that with. The difficult blade features are indeed difficult.


Query said:
As far as noise - some people have claimed that certain blades are noisier than others, because of the way runners are mounted. E.g., Matrix I blades like mine clicked. Maybe non-metal runner mounts absorb some sound. I wonder if people worry about that. Maybe it has helped the popularity of MK Dance blades in ice dance - the rounded off and backwards facing drag pick makes less noise if it touches. Maybe the Eclipse Dance blade does that too. Though they might not be ideal for spins.
Click to expand...
Hopefully judges can tell the difference between blades that are just noisy in general, vs. the specific noise of toepicks scratching the ice when they shouldn't be.

Some sounds are valued, but rarely toepick scratching. Scratch spins would be the only case where that might be a positive.
 
By the way...
Query said:
Great!

My figure skating director basically agrees. She says spins, like a lot of skating, are not specific in terms of what part of the blade you use, or the exact body position. Which explains why coaches differ so much in what they teach. Of course some moves (like jumps) are specific as to inside and outside edges. But she says it is now OK to spin on inside edges, not just outside too.
Click to expand...
"Forward" spins are generally performed on the back inside edge -- you enter the spin on a forward outside edge, and at the moment that the edge turns into a spinning rotation in place it also turns a three turn onto the back inside, so the little circles/loops that the blade draws on the ice (preferably right on top of each other) are on the back inside edge.

Back spins are generally on the back outside edge. When performed from the beginning of the spin, often entered from a forward inside three turn.

It is possible to spin on forward outside edge for forward spins and forward inside edge for backspins, but these are not the standard techniques.

For camel spins especially, changing from the standard back edge to the corresponding forward edge has long been admired as a difficult variation.

For back sitspins and back upright spins, as I mentioned earlier, sometimes beginners never master turning that FI three turn onto the BO edge and only keep making circles on the FI edge. In this case, the circles on the ice are usually larger and slower than in a spin with more technical mastery.

But changing edge on purpose, after establishing the BI forward spin or the BO backspin changing to FO on the forward spin or FI on the backspin, requires more mastery and is rewarded in IJS. Or, in theory, starting the spin rotation (not just an entry edge) on a forward edge and then changing to backward edge. To get credit for that mastery, the skater needs to show a clear change of edge during the rotation, with at least 2 revolutions on the first edge before the change and least 2 on the other edge after the change.

Originally the IJS rewarded this in any spin position, but later they rewrote the requirements for that feature to exclude back sitspins and simple upright spins.

Personally, I was only ever to achieve the change of edge on a simple back upright spin, which given my low skill level is a data point in favor of that change being too easy for elite skaters.
 
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I wonder if the brand of blade might contribute to whether or not your spin makes that scratching sound? I've spun on Phantom blades for about 40 years. They have a significantly larger toe pick, including that lowest pick used in initially planting the spin. My spins have almost always made that scratching sound, but they're also pretty fast and well-controlled (thank you, Phantoms!). My coaches never minded the sound so long as the tracings were tight and overlapping. But it's possible things may have changed since then.
 
rinkratpat76 said:
I wonder if the brand of blade might contribute to whether or not your spin makes that scratching sound? I've spun on Phantom blades for about 40 years. They have a significantly larger toe pick, including that lowest pick used in initially planting the spin. My spins have almost always made that scratching sound, but they're also pretty fast and well-controlled (thank you, Phantoms!). My coaches never minded the sound so long as the tracings were tight and overlapping. But it's possible things may have changed since then.
Click to expand...
I learned everything up to seniors on MK Pros, but have switched to Phantoms. You're right, there's more noise with those blades, but otherwise nothing changed with my spins. If anything, they got better (once I'd stopped doing a face plant on flying camel entries, due to that longer pick :tantrum:.)
 
Diana Delafield said:
I learned everything up to seniors on MK Pros, but have switched to Phantoms. You're right, there's more noise with those blades, but otherwise nothing changed with my spins. If anything, they got better (once I'd stopped doing a face plant on flying camel entries, due to that longer pick :tantrum:.)
Click to expand...

Ouch! Glad that got better! 😬 (My most memorable face plant was actually on inline skates during Covid. The rinks were all closed, and the skillsets obviously did not transfer over. Split my lip and knocked three teeth loose, chipping the two front ones. Actually thankful to be wearing a face mask that month. 😷)

I think MK pros were my previous blades as well. Honestly can’t remember how it felt to spin in them by comparison. Got the Phantoms to help the jumps (not sure if they did), but know they helped the spins get stronger.
 
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