Nathan Chen

[1111bm]

A peeve I have about his SP is that he took out the spread eagle exit of his 3A and placed it in the entry instead (he probably wanted to do both, but gave up doing the exit in the competition due to lack of stability/nervousness). I loved it in ISP1 when he landed the 3A on a strum of the guitar and hit the spread eagle on another strum.

Yeah I noticed that too, and thought the same, so hopefully he'll do it next time when he's in a more confident mood. The reason why I enjoy that spreadeagle on exit is also that arm move and 'cocky' stare at the judges that he does along with it.

It was little details like that missing this time, which gave a more restraint and cautious impression of his SP, compared to Skate America f.i. (and I love his SA outing of his Desperados SP).

So you're saying that five out of his seven jumping passes have music cues? Maybe his FS layout is organized around the music after all

Yes, I take everything back that I said earlier. But also re-organising the last jumping passes helped to improve it even more (unless it was just coincidence that he happened to hit those cues at this comp ).

...and the euler combo less so, because violin sounds are more sustained and don't really go together with the disjointed rhythm of a jumping pass.

Yeah the violin strokes don't go so well with the jump landings, that's very true. But nevertheless, they are still cues that he hit at this comp, or that he can attempt to hit in the future, and can be reflected in the GOE.

And btw, I am STILL mourning the very first music cut of his FS, where he landed his 4T+1Eu+3F perfectly timed on the rising piano chords. Bring it back, I say!
(also loved the way his stroking was timed to the piano chords as well, right after the jump)

I love how the 3Lz marks the transition between Metamorphosis and the violin concerto, and the 4S feeds off the tension of the climaxing music well.

Yes exactly, it's really nicely done actually, and it is so subtle and organically integrated into the program, that one doesn't even necessarily notice. But in terms of judging, that wouldn't fulfill the 'matches the music' bullet I guess, and it would probably be more of a positive point towards composition.

Does Nats 19 count for you

Oh I forgot about that one (somehow I was distracted by those last two spins, and that's all I remember ).

But actually the last combos in that program didn't have nice landings, so it was clean, yes, but not pristine. I have high standards.
Same with GPF 19 actually, I didn't like the landing of his 4F and the last combo didn't look nice either. But on paper it was clean.

I do wonder why he was in a seemingly better shape when he wasn't even training full-time and was mostly without his coach, compared to now where he has all this time with Raf and without the added load of school.

 

[LutzDance]

GPF 2019 his layout was 4F3T 4Lz 4TEu3S 3A 4S 4T 3Lz3T. There'd be no improvement in base value if the 4Lo were to replace a 4F or 4Lz not to mention that Nathan would probably find it difficult to do a quad combo after a 4Lo. Early in the season Nathan was training to perfect doing quad combos in the back half of his program with almost the same base value. The true increase would come when a 4Lo would replace the 3Lz placeholder.

I agree with everything said in this post and particularly this part. In fact, when Nathan said in the pre-Nationals interview that his success rate of 4Lo in training had been quite low, I couldn't help but wonder if he was referring to when it was included as part of a five or (god forbid) six-quad program.

unless it was just coincidence that he happened to hit those cues at this comp

It was not unlikely since there were a lot of beats in that section As long as he hits them I don't mind it though.

And btw, I am STILL mourning the very first music cut of his FS, where he landed his 4T+1Eu+3F perfectly timed on the rising piano chords. Bring it back, I say!

*insert daily petition to bring back the first music cut*

Yes exactly, it's really nicely done actually, and it is so subtle and organically integrated into the program, that one doesn't even necessarily notice. But in terms of judging, that wouldn't fulfill the 'matches the music' bullet I guess, and it would probably be more of a positive point towards composition.

I think that's at least part of where the negativity toward his FS comes from (among the saner skating fans) - it's too subtle and eludes people's understanding.

In terms of jump quality, his quads at the last OP before the FS could be described as pristine (at least according to my standards ) but they sort of went away in the competition. I'm hoping this is similar to where he was at during IdF 19 or GPF 18, where jumps started to get better in practice and were just about the make their way into real comps.

 

[1111bm]

In fact, when Nathan said in the pre-Nationals interview that his success rate of 4Lo in training had been quite low, I couldn't help but wonder if he was referring to when it was included as part of a five or (god forbid) six-quad program.

Yes I keep wondering about the 4Lo too, why he would need it, unless he wants to do 6 quads (and yes, god forbid...).

The only other possible explanation I can think of, is to have another choice in case one of his other quads starts failing him (sometimes his 4S is not 'cooperating', or even the 4Lz or 4F) or because an injury prevents him from executing it, like when he omitted the Lutz because of his ankle, or I could also imagine f.i. a problem with his left hip or foot keeping him from doing too many toe loops.

It was not unlikely since there were a lot of beats in that section As long as he hits them I don't mind it though.

Actually only the part with his 3A has several types of beats close together, where it's relatively easy to 'accidentally' hit one of them.

Both times when he did his toe combos, the music only had 3 distinct, drawn-out beats/strokes and in both instances the take-off of the 1st jump was timed on the 1st beat and the landing of the 2nd jump was on the 2nd beat (yes I went back and checked, it was a big sacrifice ;P). It's almost too precise to be accidental?

The reason why I said it could've been coincidence (maybe in the case of one of the jumping passes) is because during each of his his practice runthrus he did those last 3 jumps at different time points in the program. So initialIy I wasn't entirely sure if the final competition version was all that intentional.

Of course I know that practice doesn't necessarily show us the 'final product', because there's others skaters that you have to look out for and who are getting in your way, which can mess up your timing. Plus most of the times it looked like he wasn't actually skating the programs precisely and just ticking the jumps off or going through the motions, and he was also taking breaks in-between, and then he sometimes wouldn't continue with the program at the exact right moment. And of course he messed some of the jumps up too, and unlike in comp, he sometimes showed an annoyed reaction instead of continuing, so that too can change the timing of all the subsequent jumps.

Does Nats 19 count for you

I rewatched it and LOL, he looked so trim with the shorter hairdo and the simple straight-cut shirt, compared to his dishevelled (by comparison) look at this year's Nationals.

 

[sheetz]

Nathan's part in the virtual parade. Did a backflip and a 4S. Should have done a 4Lo.

https://twitter.com/NathanChenJP/status/1352013113374117889

 

[Joe Mendoza]

I suck at making distinctions of specific transitions, but how elaborate or pervasive are the transitions of Yuzu, Shoma, Boyang, or Kolyada in and out of quads? I can imagine there is a balancing act of whether the GOE that one could get from transitions is worth the possibility of actually not making the jump without it. Are there transition moves that his competitors have used consistently that we think Nathan could also apply to his quad jumps?

 

[Joe Mendoza]

Actually, more generally, it is hard for me to follow how one quantifies and compares PCS components. There always a lot of discussions on how Hanyu and sometimes Jason are 'far' superior (according to TSL and other Youtubers) when it comes to PCS...but how does one quantitatively judge that (or maybe I need to stop making a subjective sport objective).

• Skating skills: when I look at Nathan skate, he seems to skate with power and is relatively quiet as he glides through the ice...even his jumps don't make that much noise. Edge work seems to be around the same as what I see as Hanyu's and Jason's...is there something I'm missing?
• Transitions: for this one, I think I could clearly see that Jason has a lot more of this in-between elements, but perhaps it's easier to do these with triples.
• Performance, Interpretation: I think this is so subjective - but I can feel his skates - definitely not the traditional and standard skates, but his performances do evoke something at least to me.
• Composition: im guessing this is more about choreography, but I think I like the simplicity and the cleanliness of the choreography based on this music - doesn't make sense for there to be a lot of flailing for such delicate and pure music.

Again, maybe im too biased, but is there something I am not seeing as I watch Nathan or his competitors as it relates to PCS?

 

[sheetz]

Basically nobody does tons of transitions into quads. A few may do a spread eagle, but if everyone were doing 5 quads there wouldn't be much of a difference between the top skaters in transitions. In terms of skating skills Patrick Chan is still the best and noone else really comes close, IMO.

PCS-wise, where Nathan really excels is the dancey choreographic moves that literally no one else does. Like at the beginning of Caravan, or the choreographic sequence of Land of All. I feel Nathan is like the Kurt Browning of the 21st century, which is probably why Kurt is such a big admirer of his.

 

[LutzDance]

When Nathan was a junior he was doing some of the most complicated transitions in and out of his triples - for example twizzle + spread eagle into the 3Lz3T and 3-turn + choctaw out of the 3F in this video (starting ~2'08"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYKOa6R44Sg He has also done running 3s and spiral into the 3Lo, and a bunch of other stuff. So yeah, I would say it's easier to do transitions when you're doing just triples.

In GPF 2019, he did a double choctaw going into the 4Lz and a spread eagle going out of it, and that was the most difficult set of transitions I've seen anyone done with a 4Lz (although it's possible I missed some crazy stuff those Russian girls did ). He also tagged a spread eagle to his 4F a few times that season - don't think anyone can do that as well. He can also do a spread eagle going into the 4T-1Eu-3F combo, which is not only difficult but aesthetically pleasing as the entire jumping pass covers a lot of ice.

In addition to his nimbleness in dealing with fast-paced choreo, Nathan also has an incredible ability to phrase legato lines (when he's in the zone

) - see the slow section of Mao's Last Dancer (CoR version), Land of All (summer shows or SkAm version), or this year's Philip Glass program (ISP1 version) - At times I feel he's breathing with the music, and I really don't see many other skaters doing it, even including ice dancers. But this is only something that I treasure privately. It's so much beyond the scope of PCS, and he never gets awarded for doing it (or punished for not doing it when he's busy with all the quads).

Gotta admit that Nathan doesn't have the greatest skating skills, and this is something that I wish could be reflected in his PCS.. He has decent speed, but his knees are rather stiff and his strokes are not as long and sustained as, say, Jason's. His edges in basic stroking could also be deeper. But he can execute difficult steps and turns super fast, without so much as visible changes in his center of gravity, that some times people can miss it if they don't slow it down (I tried to count all the turns and steps in his SP this year and my amateur's eyes almost fell off ). It's true that his jumps are quiet though- I've watched him compete and practice live, and found it almost shocking how much better his jumps sounded than others. His takeoffs and landings are just two clicks, whereas other can sound scratchy or heavy-lifting.

 

[sheetz]

In GPF 2019, he did a double choctaw going into the 4Lz and a spread eagle going out of it, and that was the most difficult set of transitions I've seen anyone done with a 4Lz (although it's possible I missed some crazy stuff those Russian girls did ).

And it's the only 4Lz I've ever seen that was off at the angle like that. Every other 4Lz is pretty much down the center.

It's true that his jumps are quiet though- I've watched him compete and practice live, and found it almost shocking how much better his jumps sounded than others. His takeoffs and landings are just two clicks, whereas other can sound scratchy or heavy-lifting.

I don't know how many times I've watched his 4T+1Eu+3F from IdF.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

 

[Cashmire]

Transitions: for this one, I think I could clearly see that Jason has a lot more of this in-between elements, but perhaps it's easier to do these with triples.

This drives me insane! Of course getting transitions in and out of quads is much more difficult than triples. I agree that should be reflected in the GOE (I believe only some of Hanyus quads should get GOE +4 because he's the only one capable of sometimes getting the perfect quad out of literally nowhere) but that applies to pretty much all the skaters. It's just much more visible in Nathan's program because he does so many quads - in many programs first minute is pretty much gliding from side to side but by then most skaters are done with the most difficult jumps and are able to throw more transitions and in between movement - Nathan is simply not one of them.
I remember Yuzuru's FS in the 2019 GPF - he was exacly as Nathan often is - very visibly focused on tech, almost marking some of his hand movement and he took out some transitions. The only thing separating them and maybe making that less noticible is the fact that Yuzuru has literally God-like fluidity - but this is definitely not the standard.
To conclude - I just hate 'fans' who claim Nathan is not capable of transitions - he very much is, just his tech is through the roof and he has to choose and he's choosing higher chance of landing his jumps because figure skating is a sport and he knows that's what is going to get him scores. In this regard I actually wish the scoring in figure skating wasn't such a mess and he'd be 'forced' to try to put more choreography in between which is impossible when PCS are judges so linear and his transitions scores are the same as performance and musicality when it shouldn't be the case.

 

[sheetz]

Translation of interview in Number magazine.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKUK_PUpLJr/

Sachiko arranged for Romain to be in the Nats crowd

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKT6zmcJ5Vm/

 

[LutzDance]

Bernie meme from Nathan, feat. Romain
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKS55uupoib/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Bernie meme from Jackson, feat. Raf
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKUQVtuhjQI/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

[shine]

And it's the only 4Lz I've ever seen that was off at the angle like that. Every other 4Lz is pretty much down the center.

I don't know how many times I've watched his 4T+1Eu+3F from IdF.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

wow

 

[sheetz]

Hersh puts Nathan's consistency in perspective

By the numbers, Nathan Chen’s jumps add up to a new dimension of skating

A look at the statistical evidence that supports how consistently good Chen’s jumping has been during an unbeaten streak.

olympics.nbcsports.com

 

[alexaa]

Our Russian speaking fans translated Nathan part of the interview from coach Vadim Naumov, Maxim Naumv’s father, 1994 world champion. He answered questions about some alleged “wrong edge“ and “under rotation“

https://twitter.com/thelandofall05/status/1352626276163592195?s=20

“Nevertheless, some so-called skating experts watched the video taken from unclear angle and talked about underrotated jumps and wrong edge..”

− Nathan Chen is a unique skater whom I admire. He is one of the few who performs quadruple jumps easily

Before executing difficult element many athletes skate through the whole rink. Chen's quads are fit in the program so naturally that they are taken for granted. He jumps clearly from toe-pic, the blade does not fall on the ice during take-off *

like some Russian female skaters do, with all due respect to them. Chen's flip and lutz are clear toe jumps. In his free skating he jumped salchow from one leg, how it should be done, not from two legs like some skaters do

In Las Vegas Chen showed the highest technical level of skating. Although he did not perform his free skate brilliantly. He understood that he had no competitors. Clearly, YH was missing”

translators' note: in published version of the interview, it was said “during landing”, but as we understood Vadim Naumov talked about take-off technique as the blade cannot fall on the when landing.

 

[sheetz]

Different interview in Number magazine. Use google translate.

「失敗しても人生が終わるわけではない」全米選手権5連覇、ネイサン・チェンが見せた3つの強さとは（田村明子）

「ぼくにとってスケートは人生を賭けてきたものだけれど、興味のない人にとっては何の意味もないことだと思うと、不思議な気持ちになります。メダルを取れたら嬉しいけど、たとえ失敗しても人生が終わるわけではない」

number.bunshun.jp

Interview with Jack Gallagher

[ICE TIME] Nathan Chen Remains on Collision Course with Yuzuru Hanyu | JAPAN Forward

The five-time defending U.S. men's champion is eager to compete against the Japanese skating superstar at the 2022 Beijing Olympics.

japan-forward.com

 

[Blades of Passion]

I feel Nathan is like the Kurt Browning of the 21st century

Completely disagree. Kurt had far more sexuality, whimsicalness, creative steps, and character acting. I'd really hate to see what the current system would have done to Kurt's skating. We'd never get anything close to Casablanca or Nyah, that's for dead sure. We'd probably never get those gigantic 3Axel's he did either. Nicolas Nadeau is the closest to Kurt these days IMO.

I do think Nathan's LP this season is his best ever though. It's showing more attention to detail, and seemingly more emotion. I still think some things are still rushed and not fully developed though (and his coach agreed). I never get the sense of burning artistic desire from Nathan, that he's out there performing because he feels an overwhelming need to express himself, to display feelings that his soul is longing to reconcile, the hardships endured in life. Maybe it's still possible though!

About Nathan's jump layout, Rafael wanted to see him do the max possible in a program, not sure how many times they ended up running it in practices though (probably not many):

4Lo
4F+3T
4Lz
4S
4T+1Lo+3F
4T+3T
3A

 

[LutzDance]

I never get the sense of burning artistic desire from Nathan

He has a quiet flame, not a conflagration, which is preferable to an environmentalist like me

 

[sheetz]

I think there's a Nathan sighting on Danielle Brezina's IGS. While Mick is performing a 3A+3T you see Nathan in the background trying a 4Lo.

Watch this story by 𝒟𝒶𝓃𝒾𝑒𝓁𝓁𝑒 𝐵𝓇𝑒𝓏𝒾𝓃𝒶(𝑀𝑜𝓃𝓉𝒶𝓁𝒷𝒶𝓃𝑜) on Instagram before it disappears.

2,528 Followers, 1,735 Following, 1,593 Posts

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[1111bm]

Is it bad that I wish to curse Nathan’s 4Lo, so he can’t possibly include it as his 6th quad?

I find that just because a skater enjoys performing or has a strong desire to express themselves or cares a lot about their performance and puts a lot of effort into it, doesn’t necessarily mean that the result is well executed or convincing. Or visually and stylistically appealing to me. It also doesn’t automatically mean that I will care more for their performance. If I don’t like the style, the topic/piece of music or the execution (the way they move or their lines) I won’t enjoy it.