Nebelhorn Trophy announcement

[ladyjane]

The German Eislauf Union has presented the announcement document regarding the Nebelhorn Trophy Oberstdorf whch includes the (last spots of the) qualification for the Olympic Winter Games.
https://eislauf-union.de/files/user...021_OWGQualifyingCompetition_Announcement.pdf

There is rather detailed information about the qualifying for the Olympics. The table on pages 13-14 is very interesting on that score.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

There is rather detailed information about the qualifying for the Olympics. The table on pages 13-14 is very interesting on that score.

Ok, I get that the left part of the table (OWG qualification) tells us how many additional spots can be qualified for the Olympics at Nebelhorn, e.g. one additional spot can be qualified for Russian men. But I am at a loss as to the right part of the table (Nebelhorn Trophy). Any idea what that's about?

 

[ladyjane]

I have a bit of problem with that too. A country can presumably also send skaters who are not trying to qualify. So, in the case of The Netherlands we can send a lady, but she will just compete for standing points and such, just like in an ordinary Challenger. Because Lindsay van Zundert already qualified one spot for The Netherlands, it is not possible to try and qualify another spot. So far I understand it. But then we can also send a second ID team, even though there's already one reserved for a couple to try and qualify. And in the case of Canada, they can send one man to try and qualify for that second spot (which is the part I understand) and no ladies, ID teams or Pairs as those spots are already reserved. But they can't send an ID team, pairs team or woman to just compete the Challenger either. Why ever not?

I do understand there's a limit to the number of skaters entering the competition (30 singles, 16 pairs and 25 ID couples) and that skaters trying to qualify are first. So, if these numbers are reached with qualifiers only (and according to the document in that case it will even be possible to go beyond these numbers), no skaters will be let in who are not trying to qualify.

This is how far I've got.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

This is weird. So in the case of Austria for some inexplicable reason we could send two men to Nebelhorn, but we would need to announce beforehand who of the guys is actually skating for the Olympic spot and who is there just for funsies (and standing points).

 

[el henry]

I have only skimmed the document, but I believe "designation" has always been the case for Nebelhorn and the Olympic qualifications.

The US could theoretically send Zhou, Paniot and Pulkinen to Nebelhorn, but would need to designate which skater is responsible for the Olympic qualification (that is confirming the third spot). Same with ladies; they could send Mariah Bell and Alysa Liu, but would need to designate ahead of time which skater is responsible for the qualifying score. (same)

But chances are they US may not be to send that many skaters with the limits on the numbers

 

[snowflake]

This is weird. So in the case of Austria for some inexplicable reason we could send two men to Nebelhorn, but we would need to announce beforehand who of the guys is actually skating for the Olympic spot and who is there just for funsies (and standing points).

I think so. As long as there are empty spots.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

The US could theoretically send Zhou, Paniot and Pulkinen to Nebelhorn, but would need to designate which skater is responsible for the Olympic qualification (that is confirming the third spot). Same with ladies; they could send Mariah Bell and Alysa Liu, but would need to designate ahead of time which skater is responsible for the qualifying sc

According to the document the US can send exactly one man and one lady to Nebelhorn.

 

[mrrice]

According to the document the US can send exactly one man and one lady to Nebelhorn.

If this is the case, I am curious to see who they send for the Ladies. I was hoping Gracie would be getting Senior B's since she doesn't have a GP as of yet.

 

[el henry]

According to the document the US can send exactly one man and one lady to Nebelhorn.

Which is why I should never skim anything Thanks

 

[ladyjane]

According to the document the US can send exactly one man and one lady to Nebelhorn.

That I can understand. But why can't they send an ID and pairs couple for funsies (even without the number issue which can't be known for the moment)? And, yes, I like the term funsies even though, just as @CrazyKittenLady remarks, standing points are not to be sneered at. It's a big reason why there are Challengers after all!

Thankfully @mrrice there are more Challengers and senior B's where Gracie could skate because I don't see USFS sending her to Nebelhorn. But the USFS will have to give her those opportunities in any case.

 

[ice coverage]

This is weird. So in the case of Austria for some inexplicable reason we could send two men to Nebelhorn, but we would need to announce beforehand who of the guys is actually skating for the Olympic spot and who is there just for funsies (and standing points).

I believe that the reason is the combination of:

(1) "2. For competitors/couples NOT competing to qualify for the Olympic Winter Games 2022 but only taking part in the Challenger Series Competition Nebelhorn Trophy ...

"ISU Members placed 1 to 10 at the Nebelhorn Trophy 2020 in the category concerned may also enter one participant/couple (see point b) for exceptions). Other ISU Members may also enter one (1) competitor in each discipline but will be accepted only if there are enough positions available." (from p. 5)

(2) Austria had a man in the top ten at 2020 Nebelhorn.​

The same structure was in place for 2017 Nebelhorn.

From: https://www.eislauf-union.de/files/users/skoehler/NT2017OWGQualifyingComeptitionannouncement.pdf (p. 5)​

"Each ISU Member has the right to nominate one competitor/couple for each event in the NEBELHORN-TROPHY 2017 for qualification purpose, if this Members did not qualify at the World Figure Skating Championships 2017 for the Olympic Winter Games 2018. In addition, Member Federations, placed 1 to 10 at the NEBELHORN-TROPHY 2016 in the category concerned, may also enter one participant/couple. (see point b) for exceptions). Other ISU Members may also enter one (1) competitor in each discipline, but will be accepted only, if there are enough positions available."​

From: https://www.isu.org/docman-document...nformation-nebelhorn-trophy-2017-final-1/file (p. 6)​

"Qualification Competition for the 2018 Olympic Winter Games

Participation is open to one (1) competitor/couple in each discipline (Men, Ladies, Pairs and Ice Dance) for those ISU Members, who have not already qualified with their results at the 2017 World Figure Skating Championships in Helsinki for the 2018 Olympic Winter Games. ...

Entered skaters and judges will have priority for the competition.​

'Nebelhorn Trophy 2017'

The competition is open with the entry of one (1) competitor/couple primarily for those ISU Members, who reached the places 1 to 10 (Member Ranking) in the “2016 Nebelhorn Trophy” in each discipline (Men, Ladies, Pairs and Ice Dance). These are

MEN RUS, BEL, USA, MAS, CAN, JPN, TPE, SVK
LADIES JPN, RUS, CAN, KOR, USA, BEL, GBR, CZE, AUS, FIN
PAIRS CAN, USA, SUI
ICE DANCE ITA, USA, CAN, KOR, FRA, BLR, GBR​

Additional skaters or a second or third entry of already ranked Members (as above) might be accepted after the entry deadline. In line with the qualifying criteria of the Olympic Winter Games, entries for the Qualifying Event will have priority."​

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

I believe that the reason is the combination of:

This makes absolute sense, thanks for providing the explanation!

 

[ladyjane]

Thank you @ice coverage . The Netherlands did enter an ID couple at Nebelhorn 2020 (who ended 6th), so that's the reason they can (numbers allowing) send an additional couple. Clear!

 

[mrrice]

That I can understand. But why can't they send an ID and pairs couple for funsies (even without the number issue which can't be known for the moment)? And, yes, I like the term funsies even though, just as @CrazyKittenLady remarks, standing points are not to be sneered at. It's a big reason why there are Challengers after all!

Thankfully @mrrice there are more Challengers and senior B's where Gracie could skate because I don't see USFS sending her to Nebelhorn. But the USFS will have to give her those opportunities in any case.

I hope you're right. I just want to see her happy. I don't think it's possible for her to make the Olympic Team but, I hope she skates well for her self esteem. I remember when Elaine Zayak came back in 1994. She didn't medal but she was very happy with the experience.

 

[noskates]

The sentence that stood out to me was the requirement of "a well balanced program!" Hah. Wish someone could define that!! So not all jumps?

 

[ice coverage]

The sentence that stood out to me was the requirement of "a well balanced program!" Hah. Wish someone could define that!! So not all jumps?

In case anyone is not aware:

"Well balanced program" is standard ISU terminology, and ISU rules do spell out its specific requirements for "a well balanced Free Skating program."​

For example:

Rule 612
Free Skating Singles​

1. Free Skating consists of a well balanced program of Free Skating elements, such as jumps, spins, steps and other linking movements executed with a minimum of two footed skating in harmony with music of the Competitor’s choice, vocal music with lyrics is permitted

Senior Well Balanced Program

A well balanced Free Skating program for Men must contain:

- maximum of 7 jump elements (one of which must be an Axel type jump);​

- maximum of 3 spins, one of which must be a spin combination, one a flying spin or a spin with a flying entrance and one a spin with only one position;​

- maximum of 1 step sequence;​

- maximum of 1 choreographic sequence.​

A well balanced Free Skating program for Ladies must contain:

- maximum of 7 jump elements (one of which must be an Axel type jump);​

- maximum of 3 spins, one of which must be a spin combination, one a flying spin or a spin with a flying entrance and one a spin with only one position;​

- maximum of 1 step sequence;​

- maximum of 1 choreographic sequence.​

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-regulations-rules/file (pp. 108-109)

 

[mrrice]

That I can understand. But why can't they send an ID and pairs couple for funsies (even without the number issue which can't be known for the moment)? And, yes, I like the term funsies even though, just as @CrazyKittenLady remarks, standing points are not to be sneered at. It's a big reason why there are Challengers after all!

Thankfully @mrrice there are more Challengers and senior B's where Gracie could skate because I don't see USFS sending her to Nebelhorn. But the USFS will have to give her those opportunities in any case.

 

[karne]

That I can understand. But why can't they send an ID and pairs couple for funsies (even without the number issue which can't be known for the moment)?

They can. The Pairs podium at 2017 Nebelhorn was Savchenko/Massot, Tarasova/Morozov, and Alexandrovskaya/Windsor. S/M and T/M were there for "funsies" and did not count towards Olympic qualification.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

They can. The Pairs podium at 2017 Nebelhorn was Savchenko/Massot, Tarasova/Morozov, and Alexandrovskaya/Windsor. S/M and T/M were there for "funsies" and did not count towards Olympic qualification.

No, the US can't send a pair or ID couple this year, at least according to the Nebelhorn document linked above, since neither a US pair nor ID team placed in the top 10 at 2020 Nebelhorn, as @ice coverage pointed out.

 

[Andrea82]

No, the US can't send a pair or ID couple this year, at least according to the Nebelhorn document linked above, since neither a US pair nor ID team placed in the top 10 at 2020 Nebelhorn, as @ice coverage pointed out.

I think they can enter one but it would be accepted by organizers only if the number of entries for the Olympic qualification + the entries from ISU members who were in top 10 at Nebelhorn 2020 is less than 16 (Pair) or 25 (Dance).

The document says "Other ISU Members may also enter one (1) competitor in each discipline but will be accepted only if there are enough positions available".
So US Pairs and ID teams will be considered only if there is space after teams attempting the OG qualification (all those entered to be accepted) and the teams from countries from 2020 Nebelhorn top 10.

As is often the case with ISU documents, the writing is a bit convulsive and frantic leading to doubts and some contradictions.
For instance they say that ISU Members placed in the top 10 at Nebelhorn 2020 can enter 1 competitor per discipline with exceptions mentioned in point b (ISU Members placed 1 to 10 at the Nebelhorn Trophy 2020 in the category concerned may also enter one participant/couple (see point b) for exceptions). Then in point B they say that "ISU Members who need to qualify in a discipline [for OG] will be allowed to enter only one competitor/couple into the respective discipline".
At this point I would think that if point b lists the exceptions to the "top 10" rule, it would mean countries needing the OG qualification in one discipline won't be allowed a second entry in that event (regardless to the fact they have to before-hand designate who is entered in the OG qualification part) even if they were top 10 last year. Then in the table at page 13 they ignore all this listing 1 Austrian Man for OG and 1 Austrian Man for Trophy.

Also the in the part related to the judging panels. First they say that if there are too many judges entered, they will draw the panels at the close of entries (in August).
Then a few lines later, they say what would happen in the event there are too many judges entered at the time of the competition. But if they had the draw at the end of the August, how can they have too many judges at the time of the competition?