New ISU rule changes: "Flutzing" addressed

[muzabee]

Here is a video about flip jumps including Yuna's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSrJx1XR1IE

A flip is generally entered from a LFO 3-turn or mohawk turn. If a LFO3 is used, the turn must be very flat so the skater is not gliding on a deep curve before picking. Thus the skater doesn't have a deep inside edge but a slight inside edge which is almost flat.

Mao has a deep inside edge with a flip. But it is because she enters into a flip jump in completely different way which all other skaters do. A flip is a natural-rotation jumps. Natural-rotation jumps are characterized by the skater gliding into the jump in the same direction to which he will rotate in the air. Counterclockwise skaters will glide counterclockwise into the jump and will execute the rotation in their natural counterclockwise direction.

But only Mao, who is a counterclockwise skater, glide 'clockwise' into the jump after the turn. Any other counterclockwise skaters don't glide 'clockwise' into the jump. It is a way which is used in counter-rotation jumps. Therefore she uses the deep inside edge in order to change the clockwise direction into a counterclockwise direction momentarily.

Here are flip and lutz jumps which Mao executed in her LP.

no.1 no.2 no.3 no.4

A jump is characterized by an edge on take-off and a curve on the entry. Can you tell a flip and lutz apart among those pictures? Her flip is completely the same jump as her lutz ,exept for the turn. Mao doen't have a REAL flip.

 

[Zuranthium]

Her flip is completely the same jump as her lutz ,exept for the turn. Mao doen't have a REAL flip.

I think you mean she doesn't have a real LUTZ.

~Z

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

On average, the technical specialists tend to be considerably younger than the judges, so yes, on average their eyesight is probably better.

If this is not meant to be amusing, at what age should judges be forced into retirement due to poor eyesight?

 

[muzabee]

I think you mean she doesn't have a real LUTZ.

~Z

I mean that she does not have a REAL lutz and flip as well.

 

[einna]

I mean that she does not have a REAL lutz and flip as well.

I think she has a real flip, the inside edge on the entry curve for her flip is much more pronounced. She just had a somewhat outside edge curve then a deep inside edge entry curve into the flip jump.

 

[tagmats]

I mean that she does not have a REAL lutz and flip as well.

Korean rules?

 

[tagmats]

A flip is generally entered from a LFO 3-turn or mohawk turn. If a LFO3 is used, the turn must be very flat so the skater is not gliding on a deep curve before picking. Thus the skater doesn't have a deep inside edge but a slight inside edge which is almost flat.

Do you know what is 3 and is Mohawk?
By the way,Mohawk is not TURN but STEP.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Do you know what is 3 and is Mohawk?
By the way,Mohawk is not TURN but STEP.

I've never thought about a Mohawk or a Choctaw as being steps but turns and often in Dance. OK two steps at a time as opposed to a 3 or Bracket turn but still its purpose is to go from East to West same as a 3. In fact with a choctaw one can go from East to South. Someone, please correct me on mohawks and choctaws. It's been a while.

Joe

 

[athlet]

I've never thought about a Mohawk or a Choctaw as being steps but turns and often in Dance. OK two steps at a time as opposed to a 3 or Bracket turn but still its purpose is to go from East to West same as a 3. In fact with a choctaw one can go from East to South. Someone, please correct me on mohawks and choctaws. It's been a while.

Joe

Mohawk is a turn. mohawk turns are the two-foot equivalents of three turns and brackets. Choctaws are the two-foot equivalents of rockers and counters.

There are explanations in wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohawk_turn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choctaw_turn

 

[tagmats]

Mohawk is a turn. mohawk turns are the two-foot equivalents of three turns and brackets. Choctaws are the two-foot equivalents of rockers and counters.

There are explanations in wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohawk_turn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choctaw_turn

Please see Communication No.1445.
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-183415-200633-121139-0-file,00.pdf
No1445 explains like this.
Turns: three turns, twizzles, brackets, loops, counters, rockers.
Steps: running steps, toe steps, chasses, mohawks, choctaws.

 

[Zuranthium]

Mohawk is a turn. mohawk turns are the two-foot equivalents of three turns and brackets.

No.

When you do a mohawk both of your blades are not doing half-turns on the ice.

A two-footed 3 turn is a two-footed 3 turn.

~Z

 

[SeaniBu]

Is this a correct or incorrect definition?
"Mohawk
A step from one blade to the other, turning from forward to backward, or backward to forward. The entrance and exit edges will be the same, inside to inside, or outside to outside. The direction of curve begun on the entrance edge is continued on the exit edge. In a basic Mohawk, the arch of the boot is held at the heal of the skating boot."

generally speaking - I believe there are 3 different types.

 

[athlet]

No.

When you do a mohawk both of your blades are not doing half-turns on the ice.

A two-footed 3 turn is a two-footed 3 turn.

~Z

"Two foot equivalents" dosen't mean two-footed 3 turn. It describes the character of mohawk.

Three turn, bracket - change of direction, change of edge, the same arc
Mohawk - change of direction, the same edge, change of foot, the same arc

Counter, rocker - change of direction, the same edge, the opposite arc
Choctaw - change of direction, change of edge, change of foot, the opposite arc

 

[antmanb]

Do you know what is 3 and is Mohawk?
By the way,Mohawk is not TURN but STEP.

Mohawk is definitely a turn.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I've never thought about a Mohawk or a Choctaw as being steps but turns and often in Dance. OK two steps at a time as opposed to a 3 or Bracket turn but still its purpose is to go from East to West same as a 3. In fact with a choctaw one can go from East to South. Someone, please correct me on mohawks and choctaws. It's been a while.

Joe

No you're absolutely right Joe - both are turns. IN this wonderful sport of ours you have one foot turns and two foot turns. Choctaws, mohawks and the like are two foto turns. Three turns, brackets and the like are one foot turns.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Mohawk is a turn. mohawk turns are the two-foot equivalents of three turns and brackets. Choctaws are the two-foot equivalents of rockers and counters.

There are explanations in wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohawk_turn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choctaw_turn

So well put and thank you for helping me get them into words. I really enjoy seeing these movements in routines rather than lunges and toepick steps. But the music dictates what. The skater has to figure that out.

Joe

 

[gsrossano]

I am posting this here cause it vaguely has to do with ISU 1445. (I've been busy this week with other stuff and haven't followed the boards, so if this a duplicate of something already posted ... never mind.)

Anyway, I was at the PSA conference today in Los Angeles to give a presentation on IJS, and picked up the following tidbits.

There is a clarification to ISU 1445 that will be coming out in about a week (7-10 days ?). So keep an eye out for that. The word is it will have several changes/elaborations on many of the item that have been discussed on the boards since 1445 came out. This apparently will include, how the flutz issue will actually be called and scored. Also there will be a change to the bullets for the step sequences. There may also be a change to the sequence rule, but that wasn't totally clear.

Another thing that was mentioned there was the calling of the sit position. It was stated that if the hip is not below the knee it will be called an "intermediate" position, and will not count towards the basic sit position. The skater has to be fully down for at least two rotations. If the sit position is required, and the skater does not get down far enough for the two rotations, then the spin will be called no level (= no points). So, for example, if a flying sit is required or a change foot sit is required, and the skater never meets the requirement for the position, those spins will be called no level.

Having taken 10s of thousands of pictures of skaters doing sit spins, I can tell you very few skaters actually get down far enough to meet the new requirement. So skaters who haven't been doing the sit correctly, better learn how to do it right fast!

 

[Mafke]

Another thing that was mentioned there was the calling of the sit position. It was stated that if the hip is not below the knee it will be called an "intermediate" position, and will not count towards the basic sit position. The skater has to be fully down for at least two rotations. If the sit position is required, and the skater does not get down far enough for the two rotations, then the spin will be called no level (= no points). So, for example, if a flying sit is required or a change foot sit is required, and the skater never meets the requirement for the position, those spins will be called no level.

Having taken 10s of thousands of pictures of skaters doing sit spins, I can tell you very few skaters actually get down far enough to meet the new requirement. So skaters who haven't been doing the sit correctly, better learn how to do it right fast!

I wonder how/if this will affect Plushenko who's always IMNM gotten very high levels for his non-existent (IMO) sit spins. Will they ignore the rule for him (I wouldn't be suprised) or will this put even more pressure on his jumps?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I wonder how/if this will affect Plushenko who's always IMNM gotten very high levels for his non-existent (IMO) sit spins. Will they ignore the rule for him (I wouldn't be suprised) or will this put even more pressure on his jumps?

Somehow my campaign all these years against that strange body position where the skater does not get all the way down has been, at least on paper, been addressed. However, will judges actully know this? Will a Tech Asst call an 'intermediate spin'? Will this reduce the CoP value for the many combo 'intermediate' spins?

Plushenko can do a sitspin, no problem, but he will not do a high level jump after the definitive sitspin because it takes up too much energy. Not so sure he will use it in combo either. It's much easier to do the 'intermedite' spin where one looks like they are about to sit on the toilet.

Joe

 

[SeaniBu]

... how the flutz issue will actually be called and scored.

Also there will be a change to the bullets for the step sequences.

There may also be a change to the sequence rule, but that wasn't totally clear.

Another thing that was mentioned there was the calling of the sit position.

That IMO is like good information. I am rather glad to hear it. Especially the sit spin.

Wondering why the Sequence rule isn't totally clear / defined before they announce it? - might change????? Do they want feedback to assist in their decisions or is it just to prepare judges (who I do have the utmost respect for whether I agree with them or not :yes for the upcoming change?