No Holding Back For Cohen

[Mathman]

So true. I just checked Michelle's jump statisitics over at Heather's site. She has done 11 triple-triples in major competition. She has done 11 seven-triple programs and 30 six-triple programs. She is deliberately taking it easy right now. We'll see if her strategy pays off or not.

Soogar, if you really haven't ever seen Michelle's triple toe/triple toe, you are in for a treat. Just gorgeous, the way she whips around and hits that smooth as silk outflowing landing edge! I can't wait to see what will go down, not just at Dortmund but over the next two years.

Mathman

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I'll be honest though, I just don't get these skaters who've been skating like forever. These women should already have 3/3's - at least a pretty consistent simple 3/3.

And I'll be honest here and say that by saying this, you sound like you don't know much about skaters. If you did, you wouldn't be calling any 3/3 simple and you would understand how tough it is to get any 3/3s consistent.

 

[sarahmistral]

3/3s and COP

now, what I want to know is...I think any skater's ultimate goal is to win the Olympics by pushing the envelope (or however else they can get their hands on the elusive Oly gold medal), not necessarily vice versa. Currently, CoP, which doesn't reward a quad or a 3/3 the way 6.0 has (i.e. winning the last two female competitors who managed the latter in olympic competition the title), is on schedule, or so it seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, to be in place at next year's worlds and, I would imagine, Torino 2006...so, if we're currently heading in the direction of rewarding other elements more and eliminating a system that hands the biggest prizes to those who nail their 3/3s, what is the point of this argument? The battle for the next Olympic title, the ultimate mark of skating supremacy, may well be decided on CoP terms...why is no one talking about this? Another question: if the 2006 Olympic competition were held, say, tomorrow and the day after, with CoP judging, who would win? A consistent all-around skater, a knock-em-dead jumper with solid 3/3s? I know a WHOLE LOT can change in a year and a half, but you get the picture.

Sarah

 

[mzheng]

To answer the question about the Frank Carol's comment on Sarah. IIRC, it was during 2000 or 2001 seasons, when Sasha sitting out with injury, NNN also sitting out or what. Frank commented on US baby ballenias then, 'when you look back, Sarah always there, steady climb up the lad' something like that.

I love MK and Sasha and I think they can outskate all of those listed except for Arakawa. But I would not bet on this contest.

I gree that Arakawa is the one to watch out. But I don't mind if MK can't (knock, knock), Arakawa take it. I like her skating a lot.

I go easy on these ole babes. They paid their dues. Good times and bum times, they've seen them all, and my dear, they're still here.

ITA. Besides what MK (or Phil Hersh's sepculating) 'it is Unlikely', not a decisive 'No triple/triple' like last year. Considering the contex in MK's interview, My guess is it depends on the competetion. If every one skates great, to beat competetion she might take the risk. Why not, she's been practicing them, and even practiced them in the program contents.

3/3 is not a easy feat, especially for a mature lady and these old babes, who body took years of jump ponding. From what I read/heard, most top ladies let their jumps gone, which I mean don't practice that much triples during off season. Not to mention 3/3s. We've seen ES strugle with her single triples earlier in season, it was not until European that she got her consistancy of 3/3 back.

Back to Sasha's stratege. I really think this is a good sign. If she skated all out and clean 6 triple LP she most likely with a podium finish.

 

[Verbalgirl77]

Back to Sasha's stratege. I really think this is a good sign. If she skated all out and clean 6 triple LP she most likely with a podium finish.

I actually agree with you. She doesn't need a 3-3 to do well at Worlds. She just needs to get a solid, secure LP out there at the World championships to get herself on that podium. I think it would certainly get the monkey off her back & certainly a World medal and clean skate would end her season on a great note.

 

[Mathman]

Re: 3/3s and COP

now, what I want to know is...I think any skater's ultimate goal is to win the Olympics by pushing the envelope (or however else they can get their hands on the elusive Oly gold medal), not necessarily vice versa. Currently, CoP, which doesn't reward a quad or a 3/3 the way 6.0 has (i.e. winning the last two female competitors who managed the latter in olympic competition the title), is on schedule, or so it seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, to be in place at next year's worlds and, I would imagine, Torino 2006...so, if we're currently heading in the direction of rewarding other elements more and eliminating a system that hands the biggest prizes to those who nail their 3/3s, what is the point of this argument? The battle for the next Olympic title, the ultimate mark of skating supremacy, may well be decided on CoP terms...why is no one talking about this? Another question: if the 2006 Olympic competition were held, say, tomorrow and the day after, with CoP judging, who would win? A consistent all-around skater, a knock-em-dead jumper with solid 3/3s? I know a WHOLE LOT can change in a year and a half, but you get the picture.

Sarah

From what I've read, Sarah, there has been quite a lot of discussion about "tweaking" the CoP to give more points to the harder technical elements, like triple-triples for women and quads for men. So maybe by the time of the Olympics it will still be necessary for the medalists to land the big tricks.

If Worlds were held today, using CoP scoring, I think Sasha would have an advantage. She consistently scored way above everybody else (except Arakawa, who was close) in the early Grand Prix events, getting straight 197s in three events. She did this without a triple-triple and also without perfectly clean performances. I think that Mrs. Tarasova did a super job of reading the CoP point system carefully and devising ways to squeeze an extra half a point here, a tenth of a point there, by such strategems as interesting entrances to jumps and the like.

Michelle's programs were not designed for the CoP. Still, a performance like her Tosca at Nationals, which practically defined perfection, would be hard to beat under any system. Even under the CoP, with most of the performers doing most of the same elements, it seems to me that the GOE and the Program Components scores will still carry the day.

Just my two cents.

Mathman

 

[wvgal57]

We've seen ES strugle with her single triples earlier in season, it was not until European that she got her consistancy of 3/3 back.


Which was January -- this girl had knee surgery in November and a severe groin injury. So that's only like 8 weeks to get herself back in shape, which she's done. The other ladies who are not injured have had all season long to get in shape, the ones who don't compete and have to factor in their competition travel have longer than that. She also added a 2nd 3/3 to her program, no easy feat.

As to the injury factor, I'm not talking about the baby ballerinas. I'm talking about the older women who should have by now had a solid 3/3 under their belt. I know it's not easy to do, but you have to start somewhere and stop saying you are going to. As stated earlier, practice in the rink and landing them is much different than getting them in the competition. I think Michelle, Irina, Liashenko, Sebeysten, Suguri should all have a strong, secure 3/3 by now. I'm not singling anyone out.

Elena is putting them in her programs and fo those who say she isn't artistic, well that's not even judged it's presentation, and that's of course subjective. She can improve, her spins need help and I'm sure she will address those areas just like she's addressed the technical aspects of her skating. Elena has made a huge comeback and I just get the feeling nobody here wants to give her any credit. She is after all, the reigning World Silver Medalist.

3/3's won the last 2 Olympics and well see how Turino goes. I still say the jumps will rule, since it is sport.

 

[Fossi]

.



I think Michelle, Irina, Liashenko, Sebeysten, Suguri should all have a strong, secure 3/3 by now. I'm not singling anyone out.
.

When is the last time Irina landed a 3/3? She didn't even attempt one at Worlds '02, when she won. I think the only one that did land a 3/3 was Michelle Kwan, and that was in the QR. Sarah wasn't there. I've always thought if Sarah was there she would've won easily compared to the other ladies that night. But she wasn't there, and couldn't show the World how superior she was at that point. (and yes, Sarah had consistent, strong and secure 3/3's)

 

[soogar]

My view is better stated by wavgal57 than I did in the previous comments. No i'm not a ladies skating fan b/c every time I randomly turn on the channel, I see Michelle with her tired programs and the same jumps over and over again so I don't make it a point to go out of my way to watch ladies skating. However I do catch Nationals often and I saw Worlds last year where she won over Sokolova with yet another tired program and no triple triple. Yet when the Olympics roll around, Michelle is left in the dust by some more athletic skater and everyone feels sorry for her. Michelle herself has constantly paid lip service to the fact that she needs a 3-3 combination. I really don't care if Michelle has landed then 11 times in competition, the fact is she has not done one at the Olympics and she didn't do one last year in Worlds LP and she didn't try it at nationals last year or this year. I too think that with all the years she has skated and competed, she would be very comfortable with a 3-3. She doesn't even push the envelope there either b/c she just does a 3toe-3toe which is the "easiest" combo for elite women.

I respect athletic achievement and the girls need to push the envelope. I think that it's kind of pitiful that ever since 1991, the winning short program always has a 3lutz/2toe combination. I mean , come on girls, try a different combination and put a triple as the second jump.

As for injuries, if Michelle doesn't want to get injured she should just go to the pro ranks and skate her safe programs there. But if she really wants an OGM, she's going to have to push herself.

Plus COP is not a detriment to the more athletic skater. The system rewards a skater who tries the elements (b/c no deduction for mistakes, just scored on what you do) and does them correctly. Plus the short program won't be such a factor anymore b/c a girl can try the difficult move and if she's not successful, won't have to contend with a crappy placement. She might be able to make up the points in great free skate. Plus I think that it's kind of bs when they lump the girls as either athletic or artistic. Guys consistently combine both and I prefer a more powerful artistry that conveys strength over anything MK presents.

I do like Sasha Cohen b/c she has powerful artistry which comes from the fact that she is physically pushing herself on the ice. You can see the athleticism in her spins and her spirals. I don't or ever had felt that kind of attraction to Michelle's skating. I respect MK as a skater b/c of her consistency and I would have preferred her to win over Irina or Sarah in SLC. However I too like Elena Sokolova who isn't that bad artistically the way everyone makes her out to be. She fills the rink with her bouncy energy and I think she's better artistically than Irina.

 

[RIskatingfan]

My view is better stated by wavgal57 than I did in the previous comments. No i'm not a ladies skating fan b/c every time I randomly turn on the channel, I see Michelle with her tired programs and the same jumps over and over again so I don't make it a point to go out of my way to watch ladies skating. However I do catch Nationals often and I saw Worlds last year where she won over Sokolova with yet another tired program and no triple triple. Yet when the Olympics roll around, Michelle is left in the dust by some more athletic skater and everyone feels sorry for her. Michelle herself has constantly paid lip service to the fact that she needs a 3-3 combination. I really don't care if Michelle has landed then 11 times in competition, the fact is she has not done one at the Olympics and she didn't do one last year in Worlds LP and she didn't try it at nationals last year or this year. I too think that with all the years she has skated and competed, she would be very comfortable with a 3-3. She doesn't even push the envelope there either b/c she just does a 3toe-3toe which is the "easiest" combo for elite women.

I'm sorry, but you really seem to contradict yourself everytime you post LOL So you criticize Michelle for not going for 3/3's. Yet, she won two World titles with them and has landed them quite a good number of times over the years. In fact, Michelle won her title last year without landing a single 3/3 and when the silver medallist landed 3/3 in every part of the competition. As for past Worlds when Michelle won with 3/3, you didn't see them on tv? Well, too bad, maybe you should LOL It would certainly give more substance to your opinions, which don't seem to be based on facts LOL

As for injuries, if Michelle doesn't want to get injured she should just go to the pro ranks and skate her safe programs there. But if she really wants an OGM, she's going to have to push herself.

I don't argue that she may need a 3/3 to win Olympics (or maybe not), but uh seems to me like Michelle's policy when it comes to injury has paid off. And I certainly don't undertand why the reigning World champion should go pro when she is the favorite going to Dortmund either.

I do like Sasha Cohen b/c she has powerful artistry which comes from the fact that she is physically pushing herself on the ice.

I'm completely puzzled by this! LOL It doesn't make sense to me LOL Powerful artistry that comes from pushing the bar technically? Uh? Plus, using Sasha as the skater who pushes herself with 3/3 unlike Michelle, Sasha is certainly not the best example.

Soogar, I can understand you like Sasha more than Michelle I can totally understand you're tired of Michelle's programs, you sure are not the only one and I can understand what you say about Michelle and the Olympics. In fact, I probably have these same positions. But please, read what you are going to post before you click on the "submit" button.

 

[soogar]

I didn't mean powerful in terms of jumps... I meant powerful in terms the athleticism she has in really pushing her positions in her spins and spirals. Yes, being flexible and achieving that balance is just as powerful as going into 3-3 jumps. Even in Worlds last year Sasha fell out of a spin b/c she was really going for maximum extension and pushing that edge.

 

[Fossi]

I have to disagree that Sasha is pushing the envelope. Sasha has not gone for that elusive quad all season, after stating several times she would be the first lady to land it. Also, where are her 3/3 attempts?
Do I fault Sasha for not going for the quad and/or 3/3's? NO. Because she couldn't do it. She only landed the 3/3 ONCE. That's not exactly impressive. She clearly doesn't have that quad yet. Unless you've got the 3/3's consistent, you are taking a huge risk. Sasha has tasted victory. When she first started she needed to take risks to be on top and beat the others. Now she is one of the top, and doesn't seem willing to take those risks anymore. I can't blame her for playing it safe all season. Had she fallen on a 3/3 or quad attempt, she would not have dominated the GP series this year. She is learning, and I doubt we'll see any "risk taking" and pushing the envelope from her anymore.

 

[soogar]

From what I've seen of Sasha's jumps, I highly doubt she can do a quad without hosing up her hip. She just doesn't get that kind of height to complete the rotation in the air. I don't even see her doing a quad. I haven't seen Ando's quad... is there an online link to it?

I thought Surya Bonaly is credited with the first quad? I saw this somewhere online. Surya did land one in competition but then fell 1 second later on a transition out of the jump so I don't think she got credit for it. That was the only one I had ever seen her land.

 

[mzheng]

Sasha has tasted victory. When she first started she needed to take risks to be on top and beat the others. Now she is one of the top, and doesn't seem willing to take those risks anymore. I can't blame her for playing it safe all season. Had she fallen on a 3/3 or quad attempt, she would not have dominated the GP series this year. She is learning, and I doubt we'll see any "risk taking" and pushing the envelope from her anymore.

I agree. I don't blame her either. The problem I had with was MK did exactly the same but she always got more flame on it. But I understand this might be she has been at the top for so long.

I do think every eligible skater who currently cometing would just do the same. Nor should them got critisized. One side it is up to the competetors to chanlenge them to force them to take the risk. On the other side as long as they take the consequence of their own desition, skate conservely win/lose the competetion/land on podium; or take the risk by trying 3/3 win/lose the competetion/land on podium. So far I think Michelle's stratege works well for her. And Sasha seems took the suite. Good for them.

 

[BronzeisGolden]

Surya attempted several quads but never cleanly landed one to my knowledge. She came very close at the 1991 Worlds, but the official call was that it was under-rotated.

And these 3/3 discussions are the same, almost word for word, every year! I love it! I could give a rat's ass, honestly. Sure, 3/3s are wonderfully exciting, but I find intricate movements/footwork sequences far more interesting and exhilarating. I'd just like to see Michelle skate with speed and emotion, and Sasha deliver a clean performance that doesn't seem forced. A 3/3 doesn't make a flawed or uninspired performance any better. I say they should just go out and do what they feel most comfortable doing....my goodness, they are competing at the premiere event in their sport, I certainly would say they had to have pushed the envelope somewhere in order to get there.

 

[soogar]

Not every eligible skater rests on their laurels once they start winning. Plushenko, Stoiko and Ito are three skaters who immediately come to mind when it comes to champions constantly pushing themselves to increase their difficulty. Sasha really hasn't had the kind of success I would associate with someone who is resting on her laurels. She hasn't even MEDALED at Worlds so I think that her strategy is to try to get on the podium.

Michelle gets criticized b/c she has been essentially doing the same jumps since she was 12 and has occupied the top spot forever. There isn't room for another star to develop. I think that Kristi Yamaguchi could have competed in eligible skating for the same amount of time as Michelle just doing the same stuff over and over again and won quite a few Worlds, Nationals and possibly another OGM. However if Kristi had continued to compete, Tonya might have whacked her instead, Nancy might not have had the fire to deliver her Olympic performance, Oksana might not have had the opportunity to shine.

It's a twofold thing. I don't disparage MK for continuing to compete b/c she does well and someone has to beat her for that spot. However I can see the point of view that she should hang it up and someone will rise and take her spot. There are lots of american girls who have it in them to land the technical elements and need the competitive experience to set themselves up for the Olympics.

 

[nymkfan51]

Michelle should retire when she's good and ready, not a moment before. For anyone who thinks she should move on, to make it easier for someone else to get that top spot ... I say absolutely not! Let them beat the best, if they want to BE the best. I would also argue that by Michelle not pushing the envelope technically the last few years, she has given her competitors every opportunity to take that next step, and none of them have.

 

[wvgal57]

When is the last time Irina landed a 3/3? She didn't even attempt one at Worlds '02, when she won. I think the only one that did land a 3/3 was Michelle Kwan, and that was in the QR. Sarah wasn't there. I've always thought if Sarah was there she would've won easily compared to the other ladies that night. But she wasn't there, and couldn't show the World how superior she was at that point. (and yes, Sarah had consistent, strong and secure 3/3's)

Well, Irina didn't really need one! So she played it safe. No 3/3. I'm saying again I think they ALL should have a 3/3 by now. Perhaps 3/3 will become a required element in the ladies field under COP -- especially the way I see it going to be played out. Cookie cutter programs, all designed to get a +3 on spins, footwork, nothing with any risk involved and then there will be no movement at all.

You think we see the same ole, same ole now, with reused, rehashed to death programs .. you ain't seen nothing yet.

 

[BravesSkateFan]

Even in Worlds last year Sasha fell out of a spin b/c she was really going for maximum extension and pushing that edge.

Actually she fell out of the spin because her edge hit a rut in the ice. She stated this herself in the interview after her skate. It could have easily happened to any skater.

I'm saying again I think they ALL should have a 3/3 by now.

Why should they all have to have a 3/3 when it isn't needed to win? If you ask me. 98% of the ladies who do attempt 3/3's regularly do so because they need them to be competitive with the top ladies.

 

[Fossi]

Not every eligible skater rests on their laurels once they start winning.

.

Soogar, that's just it, Sasha HAS rested on her laurels once she started winning. This is one thing that has really disappointed me about her. I don't understand how you can't see that.
You are pointing out all these "negatives" about Michelle's lack of 3/3's, lack of 3/3 attempts, and "resting on laurels," when Sasha has done the exact same thing. Sometimes I feel like she is following Michelle's career too much and it makes it hard for me to watch her.
Sasha does not go for 3/3's anymore since she started winning. The one she landed at Worlds was a fluke, for lack of a better word. She has not done it before and has yet to do it, or even attempt it, again.
Michelle, while some feel rests on her laurels, has landed the 3/3 many, many times in her career. She used to surprise the heck out of me when I thought others were going to blow her away. She would land a beautiful 3/3, and nobody could've touched her when she was on with that 7 triple 3/3 skate.
I have yet to see that from Sasha.
I am no Kwan fan, but even I can admit that Sarah NEEDED a 3/3, or even two 3/3's to beat Kwan if she was "on." There is no denying her talent, no matter how hard we try to make her less of a skater.