NZ - skate for wide foot and maybe narrow heel

[SunshineCat]

Hi, I live in the middle of nowhere and my skate shop isn't very knowledgable or able to order in skates themselves. They advised me they can only do baking, no stretching or punching out.

I'm currently in Jackson Freestyle size 7.5 D width (US 9.5). I was measured as size 7 EEEE by the fitter from my local shop but they recommended the 7.5 D as they didn't have any other skates (I know now this is quite unideal as the width is feeling still tight). I've taken measurements for a virtual fitting.
- Length 24.7cm (9.7in)
- Forefoot circumference 24cm under weight (9.44 in)
- Heel width is approx 6cm (2.36in) - not sure if helpful

The boot feels too tight, mostly in the forefoot and especially toe box. My big toe has a mild bunion and so sits fairly straight in the boot and the pinky toe is squished against the inside of the boot uncomfortably. I've always had a wide forefoot and been fitted for extra wide running shoes by a podiatrist. I overpronate a lot so have orthotics.

I need to tie my boot very tight to feel stable and have good ankle lock, but then my feet go numb feeling. I feel like it may affect my skating, like it's hard for me to stand stable on the ball of my foot as my toes can't splay. My heel lifts quite a bit if going onto the ball of my foot e.g. for 3 turn, spin - hard to balance. So I'm wondering if the skate is too long or the heel is too wide possibly. I suspect my heel is narrower as I'd often have this heel lift issue trying on sports shoes too, if the width was right the heel was often rising.

I'm still doing learn to skate. Currently doing mohawks, backward edges, 3 turns etc.

165cm and 58kg female if it helps (6.5 inch and 128lb).

In the meantime, I'm thinking about trying a stretch/punchout at home or perhaps go to a shoe repair shop.
I'm asking for a virtual fitting but thought I'd ask here too.

Any advice on boots appreciated!
I know Jackson has split widths. I've heard the split width can only be 2 sizes different. Would it be possible to make a Jackson split width work and would you preference the heel or the forefoot width? E.g. 2E forefoot and D heel vs E forefoot and C heel

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Hi, I live in the middle of nowhere and my skate shop isn't very knowledgable or able to order in skates themselves. They advised me they can only do baking, no stretching or punching out.

I'm currently in Jackson Freestyle size 7.5 D width (US 9.5). I was measured as size 7 EEEE by the fitter from my local shop but they recommended the 7.5 D as they didn't have any other skates (I know now this is quite unideal!). I've taken measurements.
- Length 24.7cm (9.7in)
- Forefoot circumference 24cm under weight (9.44 in)
- Heel width is approx 6cm (2.36in)
From the Jackson chart it looks like I'm US size 8 (UK size 6!) and 2E

The boot feels too tight, mostly in the forefoot and especially toe box. My big toe has a mild bunion and so sits fairly straight in the boot and the pinky toe is squished against the inside of the boot uncomfortably. I've always had a wide forefoot and been fitted for extra wide running shoes by a podiatrist. I overpronate a lot so have orthotics.

I need to tie my boot very tight to feel stable and have good ankle lock, but then my feet go numb feeling. I feel like it may affect my skating, like it's hard for me to stand stable on the ball of my foot as my toes can't splay. My heel lifts quite a bit if going onto the ball of my foot e.g. for 3 turn, spin - hard to balance. So I'm wondering if the skate is too long or the heel is too wide possibly. I suspect my heel is narrower as I'd often have this heel lift issue trying on sports shoes too, if the width was right the heel was often rising.

I'm still doing learn to skate. Currently doing mohawks, backward edges, 3 turns etc.

165cm and 58kg female if it helps (6.5 inch and 128lb).

In the meantime, I'm thinking about trying a stretch/punchout at home or perhaps go to a shoe repair shop.
I'm asking for a virtual fitting but thought I'd ask here too.

Any advice on boots appreciated!
I know Jackson has split widths. I've heard the split width can only be 2 sizes different. Would it be possible to make a Jackson split width work and would you preference the heel or the forefoot width? E.g. 2E forefoot and D heel vs E forefoot and C heel

Hi and welcome. You are probably not going to like what I have to say, but it is how things must be done to get a proper fit.

First of all, you cannot size/measure yourself. Secondly, where is the "middle of nowhere?!" We could suggest an in person fitting but sounds like you are definitely going to have to travel to do so, this is necessary to get a proper fitting with an expert fitter.
Lastly, what is your foot type and are your arches very high/high/normal/low/flat?


Once I (we) have that information, then suggestions can be made.

Thanks and good luck!

 

[tstop4me]

I know Jackson has split widths. I've heard the split width can only be 2 sizes different. Would it be possible to make a Jackson split width work and would you preference the heel or the forefoot width? E.g. 2E forefoot and D heel vs E forefoot and C heel

You want to ensure that the heel pocket fits properly as-is, since proper heel fit is crucial and, at the same time, the heel pocket is the portion of the boot least amenable to modification. See my recent post:

You've reached the right conclusion. There's not much you can do about a heel pocket that's too loose. Even with heat-moldable boots, the heel pocket is the portion of the boot that is least amenable to heat molding. Some techs will heat the heel pocket and pinch it in. But the heel pocket won't conform to the heel of your foot properly, and the heel pocket will loosen again with wear. And the trouble with gluing pads to the sides of the heel pocket is that when you insert your foot, the heel of your foot will push down on the top edges of the pad, and the pad will work loose after several times.

When you try out your next pair of new boots, check for heel slippage at the shop. Lace up, and stand up. The heel of your foot should be fully seated within the heel pocket of the boot, and there should be no painful pinching (otherwise the heel pocket is too small). Have the tech grab the toe and heel of the boot and hold the boot firmly against the floor. Then try to move the heel of your foot from side to side and up and down (with reasonable force, but be sure not to kick the tech in the face ). Any movement should be due to compression of the padding and lining (maybe a mm at most). But you should not feel any sliding of the heel of your foot within the heel pocket of your boot. If you do, you now know you probably can't fix it. Depending on the width of your ball relative to the width of your heel, you might be able to punch out the ball and toe region if needed, or you might need a split-width boot. But start with a proper fit of the heel pocket first. Good Luck!

Whether Jacksons are right for you will depend on the answers you give to Ic3's post above. But FYI, for certain Jackson stock boots, a split width difference (ball-heel) of one or two widths can be accommodated. Larger differences will require a semi-custom boot (which Jackson calls rapid custom) or a full-custom boot (which Jackson now confusingly calls modified boot), depending on how large the difference is. The semi-custom and full-custom options are not available for kits (boot plus pre-attached blade) such as the Freestyle, but for certain models of separate boots. Other manufacturers offer similar options. But you will need to go to an authorized fitter who will take proper measurements/tracings/scans and special order them for you. Given your various foot problems (and need for orthotics), you will likely need a fitter who can make further adjustments such as punch outs.

 

[SunshineCat]

Hi and welcome. You are probably not going to like what I have to say, but it is how things must be done to get a proper fit.

First of all, you cannot size/measure yourself. Secondly, where is the "middle of nowhere?!" We could suggest an in person fitting but sounds like you are definitely going to have to travel to do so, this is necessary to get a proper fitting with an expert fitter.
Lastly, what is your foot type and are your arches very high/high/normal/low/flat?


Once I (we) have that information, then suggestions can be made.

Thanks and good luck!

Hi, thanks for the reply. I live in New Zealand, as far as I can see online the best pro shop is the one in Auckland, I've seen it recommended online by Australians. This is the one in Auckland https://skatersedge.co.nz/. The one I went to in Christchurch I went to wasn't too helpful as they said couldn't order in any more boots than the Jacksons in stock.

I emailed them and they said I can do a virtual fitting if I live outside of Auckland. You can see the process on their website of how you measure your feet with help and send them photos of your feet, arches, foot tracings, measurements. Those instructions on the website are the instructions I followed to do the measurements.

I can fly to Auckland which isn't too difficult, but as they suggested the virtual fitting I thought that would be fine to save money. I thought they'd be doing the same thing as what I sent them (e.g. foot tracings). But I'm reconsidering that now.

My arches are almost flat. One foot worse than the other.

My foot looks most like orient. The slope of the curve is steeper than the photo reference, as in the slope going from big toe to pinky toe, there's a larger difference in height.

 

[SunshineCat]

You want to ensure that the heel pocket fits properly as-is, since proper heel fit is crucial and, at the same time, the heel pocket is the portion of the boot least amenable to modification. See my recent post:



Whether Jacksons are right for you will depend on the answers you give to Ic3's post above. But FYI, for certain Jackson stock boots, a split width difference (ball-heel) of one or two widths can be accommodated. Larger differences will require a semi-custom boot (which Jackson calls rapid custom) or a full-custom boot (which Jackson now confusingly calls modified boot), depending on how large the difference is. The semi-custom and full-custom options are not available for kits (boot plus pre-attached blade) such as the Freestyle, but for certain models of separate boots. Other manufacturers offer similar options. But you will need to go to an authorized fitter who will take proper measurements/tracings/scans and special order them for you. Given your various foot problems (and need for orthotics), you will likely need a fitter who can make further adjustments such as punch outs.

Thanks for the info. Yeah it sounds like heel fit is very important. I think my current heel is a bit loose. When you say move the heel, do you mean like doing inversion and eversion of the ankle and seeing how much it can move? I can do a fair bit. I'll see if the Auckland shop can do the special fitting.

 

[Query]

I admit I'm not an expert. I just experiment.

Most of the people in this forum probably don't make their own insoles, and maybe don't think they or most skaters could. I do. I cut the heel portion a bit long and wide, so it wraps around the heel. That tightens it up there. I also three dimensionally sculpt them (out of camping pad foam, though I've also tried starting with commercial insoles, and cut leather with athletic tape to sculpt the thickness), with a sharp heavy duty scissors, to give me the exact shape that feels right, and that gives me good balance.

But at least with the materials I use, my insoles scrunch down over time, so my home-made insoles are temporary, and I need to remake them every few months.

Many orthotists, and SOME podiatrists and physical therapists (in the U.S. - I don't know about what specialists do what where you live) do this sort of thing on a professional basis, and can do fancy things like use 2 or 3 layers of different types of foam (which seems to be more durable, and might also be better for your feet, if it is done right), and might be able to help you, perhaps even with your current boots. Insoles that are produced or ordered by medical practitioners are called "orthotics" (though that is a more general term). But not everyone in those professions is good at making things for skaters - though some who are good at producing orthotics for dancers (e.g., ballerinas) are claimed to manage pretty well.

But there is of course a tremendous benefit to starting with boots of the right shape, and going to a competent professional skate tech/fitter. (A lot of us have really bad experiences from going to less-than-competent fitters and techs - including long term medical problems.) It's not unusual for skaters to drive or fly a few hours or more to the best skate tech they can find. Be sure to make an appointment ahead of time.

I leave it to others to tell you who to go to in your location.

 

[SunshineCat]

I admit I'm not an expert. I just experiment.

Most of the people in this forum probably don't make their own insoles, and maybe don't think they or most skaters could. I do. I cut the heel portion a bit long and wide, so it wraps around the heel. That tightens it up there. I also three dimensionally sculpt them (out of camping pad foam, though I've also tried starting with commercial insoles, and cut leather with athletic tape to sculpt the thickness), with a sharp heavy duty scissors, to give me the exact shape that feels right, and that gives me good balance.

But at least with the materials I use, my insoles scrunch down over time, so my home-made insoles are temporary, and I need to remake them every few months.

Many orthotists, and SOME podiatrists and physical therapists (in the U.S. - I don't know about what specialists do what where you live) do this sort of thing on a professional basis, and can do fancy things like use 2 or 3 layers of different types of foam (which seems to be more durable, and might also be better for your feet, if it is done right), and might be able to help you, perhaps even with your current boots. Insoles that are produced or ordered by medical practitioners are called "orthotics" (though that is a more general term). But not everyone in those professions is good at making things for skaters - though some who are good at producing orthotics for dancers (e.g., ballerinas) are claimed to manage pretty well.

But there is of course a tremendous benefit to starting with boots of the right shape, and going to a competent professional skate tech/fitter. (A lot of us have really bad experiences from going to less-than-competent fitters and techs - including long term medical problems.) It's not unusual for skaters to drive or fly a few hours or more to the best skate tech they can find. Be sure to make an appointment ahead of time.

I leave it to others to tell you who to go to in your location.

Hi thanks for your response. That's really interesting you make your own insoles and thanks for describing your process.

I am seeing my podiatrist for a follow up for my walking shoe orthotic, apparently he's the best in town so I'll see what he can do. He does make his own. Are there particular characteristics of a figure skating orthotic compared to a normal one? I imagine you have to support the arch more rigidly than softly.

I am really starting to see the value of a competent fitter, I can see my subpar experience isn't universal and an experienced fitter might have much more to add. Looking forward to hearing from the others about that.

 

[tstop4me]

Thanks for the info. Yeah it sounds like heel fit is very important. I think my current heel is a bit loose. When you say move the heel, do you mean like doing inversion and eversion of the ankle and seeing how much it can move? I can do a fair bit. I'll see if the Auckland shop can do the special fitting.

By "try to move the heel of your foot from side to side and up and down", I mean try out various motions (as the tech holds the boot firmly against the floor). So, yes, you can try to roll your foot about the ankle. But also try to wiggle your heel from side to side. And, most importantly, try to lift your heel up and place it back down ... mimicking a walking gait as it were.

You want to avoid the mistake many skaters make: they don't test out the heel fit until after they purchase the skates and get on the ice. A few shops will let you return the skates if the fit is off, but many won't. You then have to either eat an expensive purchase or go on a futile search for a remedy.

 

[tstop4me]

I am seeing my podiatrist for a follow up for my walking shoe orthotic, apparently he's the best in town so I'll see what he can do. He does make his own. Are there particular characteristics of a figure skating orthotic compared to a normal one? I imagine you have to support the arch more rigidly than softly.

* You need a podiatrist who is experienced with fitting orthotics for figure skating. The biomechanics of figure skating are substantially different from that of walking or running. In particular, you need orthotics to yield proper edge balance. I have separate prescription orthotics for my walking and running shoes. I ended up making my own for my figure skates since my podiatrist had no experience with figure skates (and I couldn't find anyone else in my area).

* The orthotics need to be "low volume" in podiatrist lingo. That means low vertical height, since most figure skate boots can't accommodate much additional vertical height. This influences not only the design of the orthotics, but also the choice of materials.

* As I mentioned above, a proper fitting heel pocket in the boot is essential. Orthotics for walking and running shoes are typically configured with a heel cup to control the position of the heel of the foot. But you don't want a heel cup on the orthotic to be fighting with the heel pocket of the boot for control of the heel of your foot.

* My feeling is that your current skates are just not right. It probably would not be worth getting prescription orthotics for them, since they might not be reusable with a properly fitted pair. Perhaps you should wait for your new boots first.

 

[SunshineCat]

* You need a podiatrist who is experienced with fitting orthotics for figure skating. The biomechanics of figure skating are substantially different from that of walking or running. In particular, you need orthotics to yield proper edge balance. I have separate prescription orthotics for my walking and running shoes. I ended up making my own for my figure skates since my podiatrist had no experience with figure skates (and I couldn't find anyone else in my area).

* The orthotics need to be "low volume" in podiatrist lingo. That means low vertical height, since most figure skate boots can't accommodate much additional vertical height. This influences not only the design of the orthotics, but also the choice of materials.

* As I mentioned above, a proper fitting heel pocket in the boot is essential. Orthotics for walking and running shoes are typically configured with a heel cup to control the position of the heel of the foot. But you don't want a heel cup on the orthotic to be fighting with the heel pocket of the boot for control of the heel of your foot.

* My feeling is that your current skates are just not right. It probably would not be worth getting prescription orthotics for them, since they might not be reusable with a properly fitted pair. Perhaps you should wait for your new boots first.

Thanks!

I agree, I think my skates aren't right.

I'll ask my podiatrist and learn to skate coach if they know any figure skating experienced podiatrists.

I will go to Skaters Edge in person. They told me based off the measurements and pictures I sent them they think my foot isn't wide but narrow - very odd considering I've always had such wide feet I can't fit into normal shoes in any store I find, apart from sometimes wide boots and 2E sports shoes. I wonder if there's something weird where my overpronation makes my arch collapse so my foot is wider in practice than it looks.

I think I'll try an overnight stay in Auckland so I can try new skates on and get my old skates adjusted as much as possible, and even go back again if I want to the next day.

I'll make sure to test the heel of any boot I try thoroughly.

===

If anyone has any idea what brands and models might be good I would appreciate it. I can get easily swayed in person and find it hard deciding things on the spot, hence why I'm here gathering information.

@Ic3Rabbit do you have any suggestions based off the extra information above?

About the foot shape, I thought it was oriental but there are some aspects of Egyptian foot as my 2nd toe is longer but only on the right foot. https://postimg.cc/gallery/ThzS5r4

Thanks for all your help This place is amazing!

 

[tstop4me]

I will go to Skaters Edge in person. They told me based off the measurements and pictures I sent them they think my foot isn't wide but narrow - very odd considering I've always had such wide feet I can't fit into normal shoes in any store I find, apart from sometimes wide boots and 2E sports shoes. I wonder if there's something weird where my overpronation makes my arch collapse so my foot is wider in practice than it looks.

I think I'll try an overnight stay in Auckland so I can try new skates on and get my old skates adjusted as much as possible, and even go back again if I want to the next day.

<<Emphasis added.>>

* More likely the other way around; i.e., collapsed arches cause strong pronation rather than strong pronation causes collapsed arches. You should discuss this with your podiatrist.

* I have collapsed arches. It's important to take at least two sets of measurements/tracings/scans: one set non-weight bearing (sitting) and one set weight bearing (standing) [in some instances, there is a third set: standing with bent ankle and bent knee].

* Cautionary tale. I was originally fitted in Jacksons via manual measurements and tracings in both the sitting and standing positions. The recommended size was 8W. I'm a male skater. At the time, this corresponded to a D ball width and a C heel width (stock split width, which was fine since I have a narrow heel). Several years ago, I was remeasured via a Jackson optical scanner: sitting position only (feet resting on a glass platen inclined about 45 deg from the plane of the floor). The scanner readout out was B ball width, normal arches, and normal heel. That was obviously wrong, so I ordered 8W again.

* Since you are flying to Auckland, you should have more preliminary discussions with the fitters at the shop. If you do in fact have extra wide feet (at the ball) along with a narrow heel, you will likely need a special order boot. See what the most efficient process is. But I have a feeling you'll need more than one trip: a first trip just to get proper evaluation of your feet.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thanks!

I agree, I think my skates aren't right.

I'll ask my podiatrist and learn to skate coach if they know any figure skating experienced podiatrists.

I will go to Skaters Edge in person. They told me based off the measurements and pictures I sent them they think my foot isn't wide but narrow - very odd considering I've always had such wide feet I can't fit into normal shoes in any store I find, apart from sometimes wide boots and 2E sports shoes. I wonder if there's something weird where my overpronation makes my arch collapse so my foot is wider in practice than it looks.

I think I'll try an overnight stay in Auckland so I can try new skates on and get my old skates adjusted as much as possible, and even go back again if I want to the next day.

I'll make sure to test the heel of any boot I try thoroughly.

===

If anyone has any idea what brands and models might be good I would appreciate it. I can get easily swayed in person and find it hard deciding things on the spot, hence why I'm here gathering information.

@Ic3Rabbit do you have any suggestions based off the extra information above?

About the foot shape, I thought it was oriental but there are some aspects of Egyptian foot as my 2nd toe is longer but only on the right foot. https://postimg.cc/gallery/ThzS5r4

Thanks for all your help This place is amazing!

Hi. After looking at the photos you included of your feet, it looks to me like you have a hybrid foot that's a cross b/t a Greek and Egyptian foot, and you definitely have issues with either pronation or supination and collapsed arches. My suggestion to you for skates would be Graf Richmond Special (if you need a wider toebox you can special order wider boots). You could also look at the F4000. I wanted to suggest Risport to you, but they don't have boots that will be wide enough if you need that. You can also look at the Jackson Supreme Pro 5320. I hope this helps.

Good luck!

 

[SunshineCat]

<<Emphasis added.>>

* More likely the other way around; i.e., collapsed arches cause strong pronation rather than strong pronation causes collapsed arches. You should discuss this with your podiatrist.

* I have collapsed arches. It's important to take at least two sets of measurements/tracings/scans: one set non-weight bearing (sitting) and one set weight bearing (standing) [in some instances, there is a third set: standing with bent ankle and bent knee].

* Cautionary tale. I was originally fitted in Jacksons via manual measurements and tracings in both the sitting and standing positions. The recommended size was 8W. I'm a male skater. At the time, this corresponded to a D ball width and a C heel width (stock split width, which was fine since I have a narrow heel). Several years ago, I was remeasured via a Jackson optical scanner: sitting position only (feet resting on a glass platen inclined about 45 deg from the plane of the floor). The scanner readout out was B ball width, normal arches, and normal heel. That was obviously wrong, so I ordered 8W again.

* Since you are flying to Auckland, you should have more preliminary discussions with the fitters at the shop. If you do in fact have extra wide feet (at the ball) along with a narrow heel, you will likely need a special order boot. See what the most efficient process is. But I have a feeling you'll need more than one trip: a first trip just to get proper evaluation of your feet.

Thanks
- That makes more sense. I'll talk with my podiatrist tomorrow about it as I'm seeing them for a follow up.
- For the sitting and standing measurements, would it be right to think the standing measurement is more important?
- I'll make sure to caution with the scanner technology if I see it!
- Yep, I'm going to bring my old skates up so they can take a look too.

Hi. After looking at the photos you included of your feet, it looks to me like you have a hybrid foot that's a cross b/t a Greek and Egyptian foot, and you definitely have issues with either pronation or supination and collapsed arches. My suggestion to you for skates would be Graf Richmond Special (if you need a wider toebox you can special order wider boots). You could also look at the F4000. I wanted to suggest Risport to you, but they don't have boots that will be wide enough if you need that. You can also look at the Jackson Supreme Pro 5320. I hope this helps.

Good luck!

Thanks, yeah I thought it was hard to categorize my foot.

The Graf looks good, but it doesn't look like it's available in NZ. SkatersEdge seems to stock only an introductory Graf model. I could go to Australia...though the flights alone would cost more than the boot itself. Decisions. I suppose one option is buying some online from somewhere with a good return policy if that exists - though this is clearly not ideal and has some risk.

That's a shame about Risport widths, that was an option that looked somewhat promising.

For the Jackson, why do you say Supreme Pro 5320 specifically compared to Debut/Premier/Synergy? Is it more mouldable or has a better heel fit / wider width?

If there's something at SkatersEdge they recommend and a brand that seems to fit reasonably well, would you advise to go for it or wait to try the Graf to see if it's even better? I guess the worse outcome is nothing really fits that well, in that case I'd definitely have to consider trying the Graf.

===
More miscellaneous questions:

- How to tell it's a good fit?
Since I've fit into ill-fitting and too narrow footwear my whole life, I find it really hard to tell what is a 'normal' amount of tightness and discomfort. Even in the Jackson's to me they feel 'fine' but after 15-20min my toes/forefoot feels numb.
I got my first pair of truly comfortable walk/run shoes fitted just weeks ago, and finally know what it feels like to not have any places of discomfort.
Should comfortable skates feel as comfortable as sports shoes? Obviously tighter, and less room to move.

- Jackson Rapid Custom
The virtual fitter who I'm going to visit said I have 'semi wide feet but not wide enough to require a Jackson wide fit'. And that if the Jacksons don't work because of the width, then the only alternative is a Jackson Rapid Custom EE fit.

Is the width of D/E/EE etc largely made by wider 'sides' of the boot or a roomier toe box?
I can imagine a situation where I get an EE which ends up being too big for the side of my foot (so unsteady skating) but still not wide enough in the toe box.

- Blades?
I was hoping I could take my Aspire XP's off my Jacksons and put them on my new boot, seeing as I'm not doing anything too high level at the moment in terms of spins etc, and I can make use of the full lifespan of the blade. I'm only just trying to get the hang of two foot spins.
I thought I could buy something like the Coronation Ace later. Is this advisable? I'll consider the upgrade if it's really worth it.
I have some savings from working the past few years but I'm going to be a poorer masters student for the next 3...

===
General updates:

I'm trying to make my Jackson Freestyle's less painful for now. I got the tox box stretched cautiously at a local shoe repair shop. It's still numbs my feet if I wear them for 20-30min so I don't know if it's really made a difference. I put one of those leather heel grips at the back which helps a little with the heel lift.
I've actually wondered if my heel is too wide rather than too narrow and have spot heated the heel using a hairdryer to really get my heel in there.
I'm committed to weekly learn to skate classes (non refundable) for another 7-8 weeks. Though if the discomfort gets bad I could get a medical note to get out of it.

===
Thanks again! Really appreciate the detailed replies, reminds me why I loved forums back in the day, wish they were still around for my other hobbies .

 

[tstop4me]

- For the sitting and standing measurements, would it be right to think the standing measurement is more important?

Both are important. You want to check whether or not there are substantial changes in foot geometry between non-weight-bearing and weight-bearing scenarios. E.g., if you have flat feet, you could have arches that initially were normal or high, but have since collapsed; OR you could have naturally low arches. How you deal with the fit of the boot will depend on the root cause of your flat feet.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thanks
- That makes more sense. I'll talk with my podiatrist tomorrow about it as I'm seeing them for a follow up.
- For the sitting and standing measurements, would it be right to think the standing measurement is more important?
- I'll make sure to caution with the scanner technology if I see it!
- Yep, I'm going to bring my old skates up so they can take a look too.


Thanks, yeah I thought it was hard to categorize my foot.

The Graf looks good, but it doesn't look like it's available in NZ. SkatersEdge seems to stock only an introductory Graf model. I could go to Australia...though the flights alone would cost more than the boot itself. Decisions. I suppose one option is buying some online from somewhere with a good return policy if that exists - though this is clearly not ideal and has some risk.

That's a shame about Risport widths, that was an option that looked somewhat promising.

For the Jackson, why do you say Supreme Pro 5320 specifically compared to Debut/Premier/Synergy? Is it more mouldable or has a better heel fit / wider width?

If there's something at SkatersEdge they recommend and a brand that seems to fit reasonably well, would you advise to go for it or wait to try the Graf to see if it's even better? I guess the worse outcome is nothing really fits that well, in that case I'd definitely have to consider trying the Graf.

===
More miscellaneous questions:

- How to tell it's a good fit?
Since I've fit into ill-fitting and too narrow footwear my whole life, I find it really hard to tell what is a 'normal' amount of tightness and discomfort. Even in the Jackson's to me they feel 'fine' but after 15-20min my toes/forefoot feels numb.
I got my first pair of truly comfortable walk/run shoes fitted just weeks ago, and finally know what it feels like to not have any places of discomfort.
Should comfortable skates feel as comfortable as sports shoes? Obviously tighter, and less room to move.

- Jackson Rapid Custom
The virtual fitter who I'm going to visit said I have 'semi wide feet but not wide enough to require a Jackson wide fit'. And that if the Jacksons don't work because of the width, then the only alternative is a Jackson Rapid Custom EE fit.

Is the width of D/E/EE etc largely made by wider 'sides' of the boot or a roomier toe box?
I can imagine a situation where I get an EE which ends up being too big for the side of my foot (so unsteady skating) but still not wide enough in the toe box.

- Blades?
I was hoping I could take my Aspire XP's off my Jacksons and put them on my new boot, seeing as I'm not doing anything too high level at the moment in terms of spins etc, and I can make use of the full lifespan of the blade. I'm only just trying to get the hang of two foot spins.
I thought I could buy something like the Coronation Ace later. Is this advisable? I'll consider the upgrade if it's really worth it.
I have some savings from working the past few years but I'm going to be a poorer masters student for the next 3...

===
General updates:

I'm trying to make my Jackson Freestyle's less painful for now. I got the tox box stretched cautiously at a local shoe repair shop. It's still numbs my feet if I wear them for 20-30min so I don't know if it's really made a difference. I put one of those leather heel grips at the back which helps a little with the heel lift.
I've actually wondered if my heel is too wide rather than too narrow and have spot heated the heel using a hairdryer to really get my heel in there.
I'm committed to weekly learn to skate classes (non refundable) for another 7-8 weeks. Though if the discomfort gets bad I could get a medical note to get out of it.

===
Thanks again! Really appreciate the detailed replies, reminds me why I loved forums back in the day, wish they were still around for my other hobbies .

You're super over thinking this. And I cannot explain (it would take forever which I don't have in the middle of an Olympic season-sorry) the whole process of 30+ years of how I know to do this. I suggested the Jackson boot that I did b/c it has more success for people with issues like yourself. Also, if the shop carries one Graf, they can usually order in others, yours is going to need to be ordered in ahead of time anyway b/c of width. You need to call the shop and talk to them about these things.
As far as a blade, Traditional style JW Coronation Ace or MK Pro. Good luck!

 

[SunshineCat]

Both are important. You want to check whether or not there are substantial changes in foot geometry between non-weight-bearing and weight-bearing scenarios. E.g., if you have flat feet, you could have arches that initially were normal or high, but have since collapsed; OR you could have naturally low arches. How you deal with the fit of the boot will depend on the root cause of your flat feet.

Thanks that makes sense

You're super over thinking this. And I cannot explain (it would take forever which I don't have in the middle of an Olympic season-sorry) the whole process of 30+ years of how I know to do this. I suggested the Jackson boot that I did b/c it has more success for people with issues like yourself. Also, if the shop carries one Graf, they can usually order in others, yours is going to need to be ordered in ahead of time anyway b/c of width. You need to call the shop and talk to them about these things.
As far as a blade, Traditional style JW Coronation Ace or MK Pro. Good luck!

That's okay, thanks for your explanations and reassurances, and I'm sorry if it's been overburdening. You're right, I'll stop overthinking it and just wait for my appointment next week and whatever happens will happen. I'll put some trust in the process.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thanks that makes sense


That's okay, thanks for your explanations and reassurances, and I'm sorry if it's been overburdening. You're right, I'll stop overthinking it and just wait for my appointment next week and whatever happens will happen. I'll put some trust in the process.

Definitely call the shop ahead of time about those Graf boots and possibly wider ones and see if they can get them in for your appointment. Also, make sure you take note of the boots and blades that were suggested for you, and know what you want to look at when there. You were not overburdening, just don't overthink.

Good luck!

 

[tstop4me]

- How to tell it's a good fit?
Since I've fit into ill-fitting and too narrow footwear my whole life, I find it really hard to tell what is a 'normal' amount of tightness and discomfort. Even in the Jackson's to me they feel 'fine' but after 15-20min my toes/forefoot feels numb.
I got my first pair of truly comfortable walk/run shoes fitted just weeks ago, and finally know what it feels like to not have any places of discomfort.
Should comfortable skates feel as comfortable as sports shoes? Obviously tighter, and less room to move.

* I've already discussed proper heel fit. Here are a couple of other tips.

* There should be no tight pinch points; though some may be selectively punched out. You should be able to wiggle your toes freely. They should not be tightly scrunched, either against each other or against the lining. Ideally, the tips of your toes should brush lightly against the inner lining (though you likely won't be able in practice to achieve this with all your toes). As the boot breaks in, and as the lining compresses, the clearance will increase; so you don't want excess clearance initially. If you can curl your toes up fully, the toe box has too much volume (vertical height). But you want some vertical clearance, especially if you will be inserting an orthotic.

* You can't compare the "comfort" of a figure skating boot to that of a sports shoe (such as a running shoe), especially right from the start. As I mentioned before, the biomechanics are entirely different; in particular, the sole of a figure skating boot does not flex. Also, for the level of boots that Ic3 has recommended, there will be an extended break-in period, even after heat molding. But fortunately, with the current generation of boots, break-in does not typically result in bloody shins and calves anymore, as in decades past.

- Jackson Rapid Custom
The virtual fitter who I'm going to visit said I have 'semi wide feet but not wide enough to require a Jackson wide fit'. And that if the Jacksons don't work because of the width, then the only alternative is a Jackson Rapid Custom EE fit.

Is the width of D/E/EE etc largely made by wider 'sides' of the boot or a roomier toe box?
I can imagine a situation where I get an EE which ends up being too big for the side of my foot (so unsteady skating) but still not wide enough in the toe box.

The width of the boot is determined at the ball of the foot. It depends on the width of the fixed insole, but not entirely: it depends on the entire perimeter of the interior of the boot, including the fixed insole and the uppers, around the ball region.

The current generation of stock Jackson separate boots comes in two standard widths for women: R(A/B) and W C/D); these are dual-width sizes (not to be confused with split-width sizes). E.g., W(C/D) means that the same boot is used for either a C or a D ball width. Out of the box, it comes sized for C width. If a D width is needed, this is accomplished by heat molding the boot and expanding the perimeter of the uppers, while the width of the fixed insole stays the same: the uppers bulge out slightly, so to speak.

With the Jackson heat-moldable boots, the toe box can be widened by a tech with the right experience and the right tools. My tech heats the toe box with a heat gun and uses a heated punch on the inside. Depending on how much widening is needed, he repeats the operation several times (i.e., not one full widening all at once). I have Orient feet, requiring a more asymmetric squarish toe box, rather than the stock symmetric rounded toe box. With some reshaping, a stock 8W (men's) yielded a good fit.

 

[tstop4me]

- Blades?
I was hoping I could take my Aspire XP's off my Jacksons and put them on my new boot, seeing as I'm not doing anything too high level at the moment in terms of spins etc, and I can make use of the full lifespan of the blade. I'm only just trying to get the hang of two foot spins.
I thought I could buy something like the Coronation Ace later. Is this advisable? I'll consider the upgrade if it's really worth it.
I have some savings from working the past few years but I'm going to be a poorer masters student for the next 3...

Your existing blades may or may not fit your new boots. So you won't know whether you even have the option of transferring your existing blades until you get your new boots.

 

[SunshineCat]

* I've already discussed proper heel fit. Here are a couple of other tips.

* There should be no tight pinch points; though some may be selectively punched out. You should be able to wiggle your toes freely. They should not be tightly scrunched, either against each other or against the lining. Ideally, the tips of your toes should brush lightly against the inner lining (though you likely won't be able in practice to achieve this with all your toes). As the boot breaks in, and as the lining compresses, the clearance will increase; so you don't want excess clearance initially. If you can curl your toes up fully, the toe box has too much volume (vertical height). But you want some vertical clearance, especially if you will be inserting an orthotic.

* You can't compare the "comfort" of a figure skating boot to that of a sports shoe (such as a running shoe), especially right from the start. As I mentioned before, the biomechanics are entirely different; in particular, the sole of a figure skating boot does not flex. Also, for the level of boots that Ic3 has recommended, there will be an extended break-in period, even after heat molding. But fortunately, with the current generation of boots, break-in does not typically result in bloody shins and calves anymore, as in decades past.



The width of the boot is determined at the ball of the foot. It depends on the width of the fixed insole, but not entirely: it depends on the entire perimeter of the interior of the boot, including the fixed insole and the uppers, around the ball region.

The current generation of stock Jackson separate boots comes in two standard widths for women: R(A/B) and W C/D); these are dual-width sizes (not to be confused with split-width sizes). E.g., W(C/D) means that the same boot is used for either a C or a D ball width. Out of the box, it comes sized for C width. If a D width is needed, this is accomplished by heat molding the boot and expanding the perimeter of the uppers, while the width of the fixed insole stays the same: the uppers bulge out slightly, so to speak.

With the Jackson heat-moldable boots, the toe box can be widened by a tech with the right experience and the right tools. My tech heats the toe box with a heat gun and uses a heated punch on the inside. Depending on how much widening is needed, he repeats the operation several times (i.e., not one full widening all at once). I have Orient feet, requiring a more asymmetric squarish toe box, rather than the stock symmetric rounded toe box. With some reshaping, a stock 8W (men's) yielded a good fit.

Thank you so much I think I know what to look for. It's helpful to know to size for the heel and ball of foot width and ask them about widening the toe box if it isn't too off. Yes, I can see on my Jackson Freestyles that the insole is small but the uppers bulge to the side.

Skaters Edge said they didn't stock GRAF anymore so couldn't order them for me, as they had long wait times for restocking and no one asked for them. They do have Jacksons (I asked specifically about Supreme Pro 5320) and Risports in stock.

===

I saw my podiatrist who seemed to understand the different mechanics of skating as he mentioned edges. When thinking about the heel lift, ruled out usual issues causing that in walking shoes and thought it must be the skate fit, as the foot is so locked in the boot. He said my foot has a natural low arch, which you can't 'fix' and isn't a problem, you just support it when under load or causing problems. Coincidentally I met up with my dad who I noticed had the same arch and foot shape. Go figure

He attached a C-shaped semi compressed felt arch support under the Jackson stock insole, saying it was easier to save boot space this way than a custom orthotic. He gave me a cutout of a thinner thickness C shape cutout felt to use if this one felt too much support, or I could add it to this one if I needed more support.

He also gave me some felt circle pads of the same felt material to put over a metatarsal bone spur and wondered if part of my forefoot numbness was actually due to compression of the bone spur and referred nerve numbness, not necessarily forefoot compression.
He advised me too to skip that bone spur area when tying, so I skipped two holes up around that area and tied the whole foot less tightly.
(For anyone reading, he said the adhesive semi compressible felt material is easy to buy on aliexpress/temu or locally, and it seems of a good foam density to me - easy to experiment with)

===
Outcome:

The arch support made quite a big difference to my feeling of ankle support and it felt like my ankle was locked in for the first time after tying it tightly, and I was skating through my leg rather than my foot, if it makes any sense. I noticed too that my blades were more balanced at rest (or even slightly tending to an outside edge), previously they were always on an inside edge standing still. I still find outside edges hard but I think that may be less due to my foot problems and more due to technique, as it doesn't have as much of the 'collapsing' feeling as it did before.

My feet didn't go numb, possibly due to the circle pad or and/or the toe box stretching by the shoe repair shop. I wonder as well, that maybe I can tie my boots more effectively now, as before tying them tighter in any area could tend to push my weak arch down and cause issues.

The heel lift has gotten a bit better with the better ankle fit + a large heel grip, I can rock onto my forefoot without excess heel lifting. If I take the heel grip out my heel does still raise however.
The podiatrist said the heel grip is important to be in the right place but is quite hard to place. For me it was about 1-2cm above the bottom. As you want the stick out part to be above the curve of your heel to stop it lifting, not at the bottom of the shoe.

I'll go to Auckland (well my flights are non-refundable anyway!). I want to get the best fit, and even with less pain and fit issues, I wonder if the heel could fit better and you've emphasized the importance of the heel.
I'm curious too that the skate tech said from my virtual fit measurements that I would fit a Jackson C rather than D, it is strange. Perhaps they are talking about the heel.
I imagine the heel grip isn't a permanent solution, that it might easily break down compared to a proper boot material.
I'm more hopeful I'll be able to either make Jacksons work with some modifications. So I can use these boots for now for classes, and I can find another model that works like the Jackson Supreme 5320, perhaps in a split width for the heel fit.

I added some photos to the gallery of the heel grip I have from the shoe shop, the felt arch support and how I'm lacing the skates to deal with a tender point. If it's helpful to anyone with similar issues. I attached a helpful collection of lacing tricks I found too - https://postimg.cc/gallery/BLqFVwQ

Thank you for your input it's been very useful to understand and be able to piece some of this together I'm definitely an overanalyser and have a sometimes irrational need to know 'why' for everything. Apparently it was good academically as when I was a child if I couldn't solve a maths problem I'd work at it endlessly until I did. But not so good for anxiety and everyday life sometimes