NZ - skate for wide foot and maybe narrow heel

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thank you so much I think I know what to look for. It's helpful to know to size for the heel and ball of foot width and ask them about widening the toe box if it isn't too off. Yes, I can see on my Jackson Freestyles that the insole is small but the uppers bulge to the side.

Skaters Edge said they didn't stock GRAF anymore so couldn't order them for me, as they had long wait times for restocking and no one asked for them. They do have Jacksons (I asked specifically about Supreme Pro 5320) and Risports in stock.

===

I saw my podiatrist who seemed to understand the different mechanics of skating as he mentioned edges. When thinking about the heel lift, ruled out usual issues causing that in walking shoes and thought it must be the skate fit, as the foot is so locked in the boot. He said my foot has a natural low arch, which you can't 'fix' and isn't a problem, you just support it when under load or causing problems. Coincidentally I met up with my dad who I noticed had the same arch and foot shape. Go figure

He attached a C-shaped semi compressed felt arch support under the Jackson stock insole, saying it was easier to save boot space this way than a custom orthotic. He gave me a cutout of a thinner thickness C shape cutout felt to use if this one felt too much support, or I could add it to this one if I needed more support.

He also gave me some felt circle pads of the same felt material to put over a metatarsal bone spur and wondered if part of my forefoot numbness was actually due to compression of the bone spur and referred nerve numbness, not necessarily forefoot compression.
He advised me too to skip that bone spur area when tying, so I skipped two holes up around that area and tied the whole foot less tightly.
(For anyone reading, he said the adhesive semi compressible felt material is easy to buy on aliexpress/temu or locally, and it seems of a good foam density to me - easy to experiment with)

===
Outcome:

The arch support made quite a big difference to my feeling of ankle support and it felt like my ankle was locked in for the first time after tying it tightly, and I was skating through my leg rather than my foot, if it makes any sense. I noticed too that my blades were more balanced at rest (or even slightly tending to an outside edge), previously they were always on an inside edge standing still. I still find outside edges hard but I think that may be less due to my foot problems and more due to technique, as it doesn't have as much of the 'collapsing' feeling as it did before.

My feet didn't go numb, possibly due to the circle pad or and/or the toe box stretching by the shoe repair shop. I wonder as well, that maybe I can tie my boots more effectively now, as before tying them tighter in any area could tend to push my weak arch down and cause issues.

The heel lift has gotten a bit better with the better ankle fit + a large heel grip, I can rock onto my forefoot without excess heel lifting. If I take the heel grip out my heel does still raise however.
The podiatrist said the heel grip is important to be in the right place but is quite hard to place. For me it was about 1-2cm above the bottom. As you want the stick out part to be above the curve of your heel to stop it lifting, not at the bottom of the shoe.

I'll go to Auckland (well my flights are non-refundable anyway!). I want to get the best fit, and even with less pain and fit issues, I wonder if the heel could fit better and you've emphasized the importance of the heel.
I'm curious too that the skate tech said from my virtual fit measurements that I would fit a Jackson C rather than D, it is strange. Perhaps they are talking about the heel.
I imagine the heel grip isn't a permanent solution, that it might easily break down compared to a proper boot material.
I'm more hopeful I'll be able to either make Jacksons work with some modifications. So I can use these boots for now for classes, and I can find another model that works like the Jackson Supreme 5320, perhaps in a split width for the heel fit.

I added some photos to the gallery of the heel grip I have from the shoe shop, the felt arch support and how I'm lacing the skates to deal with a tender point. If it's helpful to anyone with similar issues. I attached a helpful collection of lacing tricks I found too - https://postimg.cc/gallery/BLqFVwQ

Thank you for your input it's been very useful to understand and be able to piece some of this together I'm definitely an overanalyser and have a sometimes irrational need to know 'why' for everything. Apparently it was good academically as when I was a child if I couldn't solve a maths problem I'd work at it endlessly until I did. But not so good for anxiety and everyday life sometimes

If you truly do fit "C" when you get to fitter then try Risport RF3 Pro.

 

[Query]

I don't have medical training. I can't speak to special needs other than my own. E.g., my feet collapse under weight symmetrically - so I haven't tried to compensate for asymmetric internal foot support. And I don't have high or low arches.

Obviously, skate outsoles have to be extremely rigid, to avoid warping and breaking blades. (Interestingly, I just looked at my cross country skate boots. They all have extremely rigid outsoles too, though I'm not sure that is true of all XC ski boots.) But I use currently foam insoles for me, which are not rigid, and which do eventually compact down. Perhaps using a more stable foam (in the long term) like urethane, or using leather, would substantially increase the lifetime of my insoles.

I personally had bad experiences with completely rigid (but heat moldable) thin insoles (I think they were Superfeet brand, and were specifically designed for ice skates). First, because they rocked all over the place inside the boots. Second, because the rigid insole gradually stretched my boots outwards, so the bottoms fit loosely. But maybe similar heat moldable orthotics created by medical practitioners fit the boot better, so the latter problem need not occur?

I think most medical foot practitioners (like most podiatrists) concentrate on ordinary people, and for athletes, on ordinary athletic shoes. The height of the boot above the ice, and the sideways pushing, creates a lot of extra torque, compared to ordinary walking and many sports. Plus, proper skating technique requires a lot more deliberate pronation and supination (because we skate on and transition between edges more) than ordinary walking and many sports. And figure skaters in particular, are sometimes expected to skate along a constant arc radius, which requires holding a specific pronated or supinated position for an extended time. Figure skating jumps are also somewhat different than some sports, in that we are expected to rotate (in some cases, very fast) during most jumps, and the aesthetic rotational jump standards of figure skating (e.g., that the foot shouldn't rotate during the take-off and landing, which I'm told differs from the balletic standard) are quite artificial.

So you can't expect all medical practitioners to be experts on the needs of ice skaters. Which is why, if you see a medical practitioner, I think you should look for one who other skaters, especially figure skaters, have had good results from. E.g., there is a podiatrist around Baltimore, MD (USA) who many skaters use. I've met many figure skaters who rave about him, and many skate techs refer customers to him, so he has lots of experience with skaters. He also played hockey, and his daughter competed at the highest figure skating levels I know of another podiatrist in Delaware (USA) with a great reputation among skaters and skate techs too. It wouldn't surprise me if there are very few podiatrists and orthotists in the world who have similar reputations and level of experience with figure skaters. You might not find someone that world class in your area, but I wouldn't assume that someone who is very good at treating non-skating athletes will be equally good at treating skaters. Skaters, like performance dancers, are very much a specialty. Maybe figure skaters are even more so.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I don't have medical training. I can't speak to special needs other than my own. E.g., my feet collapse under weight symmetrically - so I haven't tried to compensate for asymmetric internal foot support. And I don't have high or low arches.

Obviously, skate outsoles have to be extremely rigid, to avoid warping and breaking blades. (Interestingly, I just looked at my cross country skate boots. They all have extremely rigid outsoles too, though I'm not sure that is true of all XC ski boots.) But I use currently foam insoles for me, which are not rigid, and which do eventually compact down. Perhaps using a more stable foam (in the long term) like urethane, or using leather, would substantially increase the lifetime of my insoles.

I personally had bad experiences with completely rigid (but heat moldable) thin insoles (I think they were Superfeet brand, and were specifically designed for ice skates). First, because they rocked all over the place inside the boots. Second, because the rigid insole gradually stretched my boots outwards, so the bottoms fit loosely. But maybe similar heat moldable orthotics created by medical practitioners fit the boot better, so the latter problem need not occur?

I think most medical foot practitioners (like most podiatrists) concentrate on ordinary people, and for athletes, on ordinary athletic shoes. The height of the boot above the ice, and the sideways pushing, creates a lot of extra torque, compared to ordinary walking and many sports. Plus, proper skating technique requires a lot more deliberate pronation and supination (because we skate on and transition between edges more) than ordinary walking and many sports. And figure skaters in particular, are sometimes expected to skate along a constant arc radius, which requires holding a specific pronated or supinated position for an extended time. Figure skating jumps are also somewhat different than some sports, in that we are expected to rotate (in some cases, very fast) during most jumps, and the aesthetic rotational jump standards of figure skating (e.g., that the foot shouldn't rotate during the take-off and landing, which I'm told differs from the balletic standard) are quite artificial.

So you can't expect all medical practitioners to be experts on the needs of ice skaters. Which is why, if you see a medical practitioner, I think you should look for one who other skaters, especially figure skaters, have had good results from. E.g., there is a podiatrist around Baltimore, MD (USA) who many skaters use. I've met many figure skaters who rave about him, and many skate techs refer customers to him, so he has lots of experience with skaters. He also played hockey, and his daughter competed at the highest figure skating levels I know of another podiatrist in Delaware (USA) with a great reputation among skaters and skate techs too. It wouldn't surprise me if there are very few podiatrists and orthotists in the world who have similar reputations and level of experience with figure skaters. You might not find someone that world class in your area, but I wouldn't assume that someone who is very good at treating non-skating athletes will be equally good at treating skaters. Skaters, like performance dancers, are very much a specialty. Maybe figure skaters are even more so.

If you are referring to the OP, that person is in NZ so I highly doubt they're coming to Baltimore or Delaware to see a podiatrist.

 

[SunshineCat]

I don't have medical training. I can't speak to special needs other than my own. E.g., my feet collapse under weight symmetrically - so I haven't tried to compensate for asymmetric internal foot support. And I don't have high or low arches.

Obviously, skate outsoles have to be extremely rigid, to avoid warping and breaking blades. (Interestingly, I just looked at my cross country skate boots. They all have extremely rigid outsoles too, though I'm not sure that is true of all XC ski boots.) But I use currently foam insoles for me, which are not rigid, and which do eventually compact down. Perhaps using a more stable foam (in the long term) like urethane, or using leather, would substantially increase the lifetime of my insoles.

I personally had bad experiences with completely rigid (but heat moldable) thin insoles (I think they were Superfeet brand, and were specifically designed for ice skates). First, because they rocked all over the place inside the boots. Second, because the rigid insole gradually stretched my boots outwards, so the bottoms fit loosely. But maybe similar heat moldable orthotics created by medical practitioners fit the boot better, so the latter problem need not occur?

I think most medical foot practitioners (like most podiatrists) concentrate on ordinary people, and for athletes, on ordinary athletic shoes. The height of the boot above the ice, and the sideways pushing, creates a lot of extra torque, compared to ordinary walking and many sports. Plus, proper skating technique requires a lot more deliberate pronation and supination (because we skate on and transition between edges more) than ordinary walking and many sports. And figure skaters in particular, are sometimes expected to skate along a constant arc radius, which requires holding a specific pronated or supinated position for an extended time. Figure skating jumps are also somewhat different than some sports, in that we are expected to rotate (in some cases, very fast) during most jumps, and the aesthetic rotational jump standards of figure skating (e.g., that the foot shouldn't rotate during the take-off and landing, which I'm told differs from the balletic standard) are quite artificial.

So you can't expect all medical practitioners to be experts on the needs of ice skaters. Which is why, if you see a medical practitioner, I think you should look for one who other skaters, especially figure skaters, have had good results from. E.g., there is a podiatrist around Baltimore, MD (USA) who many skaters use. I've met many figure skaters who rave about him, and many skate techs refer customers to him, so he has lots of experience with skaters. He also played hockey, and his daughter competed at the highest figure skating levels I know of another podiatrist in Delaware (USA) with a great reputation among skaters and skate techs too. It wouldn't surprise me if there are very few podiatrists and orthotists in the world who have similar reputations and level of experience with figure skaters. You might not find someone that world class in your area, but I wouldn't assume that someone who is very good at treating non-skating athletes will be equally good at treating skaters. Skaters, like performance dancers, are very much a specialty. Maybe figure skaters are even more so.

I'll read this later!

I'm in the fitting at the moment and nothing has fit quite right.
They basically measured how long my foot is, no width or other measurements.

The Jackson Supreme boot was the best fit out of all of them, but not a great fit. I tried the white one as they didn't have suede in my size. Still the same old problems as my Jackson freestyle (just less bad and in the right length) - some heel slip and toe box pinching.

They said if I want to order the rapid custom I just have to decide what heel and toe width as they have no guidance from Jackson unfortunately (sounds like Jackson isn't a great help with it...).

How could I decide my heel size? Mine is a maximum A I think, as I tried the Jackson R (A/B) and it was OK, but maybe a tiny bit lifting still.
At least for the width there are the sizing charts.
I'm guessing the answer is go to an experienced fitter

I emailed Jackson for any guidance on the heel fit and they just told me to talk to my local skate dealer...

In length recommended I would fit 6.5 size by the sizing chart but 7 would work as well depending on preference, the 6.5 my toes brush the front (the tight toebox makes it hurt though) and 7 less so. It's difficult to tell the length when my foot is too wide and the whole front feels too tight in any skate I try on.

Width it will be wider than D width, that's all I know.
Heel the A heel was the narrowest stock width I could try on, it felt pretty secure though moved a tiny bit, but far better than my current. Maybe half a centimetre. Apparently the size difference can be 1-3 apart. AAAA-C heel and width up to EE if I recall correctly.

Risport, Aura and Edea (obviously) didn't work for me unfortunately in different models.

They don't sell Graf anymore but they had a single Graf dance boot 6 1/2 L size from their old stock. It was slightly too long but it was by far the comfiest out of the box in terms of the width fit (though still not perfect, but so so much comfier than the others I tried). The heel lifts but I think it being like a size too big really didn't help that. I am wondering about Graf now...a trip to Aussie is an even bigger monetary commitment. But so is getting the Jackson rapid custom - $200 NZD per change (so $400 extra for both the heel and forefoot widths).
The Graf boot https://skatersedge.co.nz/product/graf-dance-size-6-5-m-clearance/
Coincidentally, the forefoot circumference on their sizing chart is the closest one to mine I've tried in a boot, 23.2cm (mine is 23-23.3cm sitting and 23.8-24cm standing).

I have to say they were very patient with me, I arrived at 10 and left at like 1pm But unfortunately without new skates or knowing what ones to get. I know for sure now though that my old skates are wayy too big, she could tell just looking at me in them

 

[tstop4me]

I'm in the fitting at the moment and nothing has fit quite right.
They basically measured how long my foot is, no width or other measurements.

The Jackson Supreme boot was the best fit out of all of them, but not a great fit. Still the same old problems as my Jackson freestyle (just less bad and in the right length) - some heel slip and toe box pinching.

They said if I want to order the rapid custom I just have to decide what heel and toe width as they have no guidance from Jackson unfortunately (sounds like Jackson isn't a great help with it...).

How could I decide my heel size? Mine is a maximum A I think, as I tried the Jackson R (A/B) and it was OK, but maybe a tiny bit lifting still.
At least for the width there are the sizing charts.
I'm guessing the answer is go to an experienced fitter

I emailed Jackson for any guidance on the heel fit and they just told me to talk to my local skate dealer...

You need both a competent Jackson authorized fitter and a competent Jackson service agent. Jackson was bought up by a large sports conglomerate about 4 yrs ago, and I don't know how they do business now. But previously, prior to the introduction of the Jackson scanner, or if the authorized fitter did not have the Jackson scanner, the fitter took two sets (one while the skater was sitting and one while the skater was standing) of detailed measurements (including heel measurements) and foot tracings and sent the measurements and tracings to Jackson. Jackson supplied standard forms specifying how the measurements and tracings were to be performed. A Jackson tech would review the info and make a recommendation for proper fit.

See if Jackson still supports this process, and then try to find the closest authorized fitter who has experience with it. It's absurd for anyone to tell you to fit yourself.

 

[SunshineCat]

You need both a competent Jackson authorized fitter and a competent Jackson service agent. Jackson was bought up by a large sports conglomerate about 4 yrs ago, and I don't know how they do business now. But previously, prior to the introduction of the Jackson scanner, or if the authorized fitter did not have the Jackson scanner, the fitter took two sets (one while the skater was sitting and one while the skater was standing) of detailed measurements (including heel measurements) and foot tracings and sent the measurements and tracings to Jackson. Jackson supplied standard forms specifying how the measurements and tracings were to be performed. A Jackson tech would review the info and make a recommendation for proper fit.

See if Jackson still supports this process, and then try to find the closest authorized fitter who has experience with it. It's absurd for anyone to tell you to fit yourself.

Thanks for the prompt. I ran back to the store before they closed. They insisted that Jackson has always done it like this with rapid customs - in terms of not helping them with recommendations for rapid customs. Apparently if they send the full measurements Jackson will only put it in as a full custom and not give recommendations for rapid custom. They seemed skeptical it was done this way anywhere else and where I was hearing this haha - 'Skaters on the internet' I said.

Only thing I can think of is maybe Jackson doesn't really care about NZ? I doubt they'd make it up regarding how Jackson is with them and communicating. They stopped stocking Graf as supposedly they didn't communicate well and supply was really infrequent.

The fitter seemed to recommend against rapid custom or even custom quoting previous experiences of people being unhappy with the fit afterwards, and herself having ordered some Riedell customs that had ended up being 3 sizes too large ???

Anyway. I asked her to remeasure my foot and she took photos as per what Jackson asks for their full customs. Which was a standing foot tracing, sitting and standing length and width, pictures of foot from different directions. No heel measurement. These were the same measurements they'd asked me to do myself when I was still doing the virtual instead of in person fitting. She initially said she'd just send my own measurements to them but after hearing you guys be like DON'T MEASURE YOUR OWN FEET, I insisted she measure them instead of using my (done with care but probably shoddy in some way) measurements.

She's going to send it to Jackson. At this point I'd honestly consider a full custom anyway, considering she said it'd be $1200 NZD in total...as apparently the rapid custom is $400 NZD on top of the cost of the boot itself. I clarified that this total for the full custom was indeed a total, not on top of the boot, though it really seems too cheap almost. If not it's not too bad. We'll see.

But if you count possibly travelling to Australia ($500-1000 NZD in itself) to try on Graf boots which may or may not fit in stock sizes....

The cost certainly keeps blowing out so maybe I should just go custom and trust Jackson.

Going to do some more reading online.

I'm wondering if I may also do a virtual fitting with Everglides to see if they can size for a Graf model, or if they can advise what rapid custom to get seeing as Skaters Edge doesn't seem to have that information.
But hopefully Jackson gets back to Skaters Edge with an answer...

 

[tstop4me]

How could I decide my heel size? Mine is a maximum A I think, as I tried the Jackson R (A/B) and it was OK, but maybe a tiny bit lifting still.
At least for the width there are the sizing charts.

Width it will be wider than D width, that's all I know.
Heel the A heel was the narrowest stock width I could try on, it felt pretty secure though moved a tiny bit, but far better than my current. Maybe half a centimetre. Apparently the size difference can be 1-3 apart. AAAA-C heel and width up to EE if I recall correctly.

Remember, the more advanced Jackson stock boots come in split widths, with the heel width nominally one size less than the ball width. When Jacksons were supplied in a single ball width, this was clear: A (ball)/AA (heel); B (ball)/A (heel); C(ball)/B (heel); .... With the current dual-ball-width sizing, the situation is not as clear. The two stock ball widths are R(A/B) and W(C/D), as I explained in a previous post. I emailed Jackson to get clarification on what the corresponding heel sizes are. They first gave me outdated info. After several rounds, they told me: R(A/B) [ball]/AA [heel] and W(C/D) [ball]/B [heel]. I don't have complete confidence in this answer, but that's the best info I got.

FWIW, I have an older pair of men's Jacksons when they were sized in single-ball width (nominally D ball/C heel) and a newer pair of men's Jacksons sized in dual-ball width [nominally (C/D) ball/B heel]. The heels feel the same. Too many variables to make a conclusion as to why that is.

If your ball width is truly greater than a D and your heel width is truly less than an A, then it's highly unlikely you will fit any stock boot from any manufacturer.

Thanks for the prompt. I ran back to the store before they closed. They insisted that Jackson has always done it like this with rapid customs - in terms of not helping them with recommendations for rapid customs. Apparently if they send the full measurements Jackson will only put it in as a full custom and not give recommendations for rapid custom. They seemed skeptical it was done this way anywhere else and where I was hearing this haha - 'Skaters on the internet' I said.

All I can give you is my experience in the US from late 2014. As I mentioned before, I'm an adult male skater. With a few exceptions, no shop carries in stock separate figure skating boots for adult men (waaay too small a market). I can't just try a bunch on in the store; they need to be special ordered. My fitter measured and traced my feet according to the Jackson forms. He said I might be able to fit a stock boot, but might need a rapid custom (if my ball width was more than one size greater than my heel width). He sent the info off to Jackson. Their tech rep said I should be OK with a stock size and would not need a rapid custom.

Anyway. I asked her to remeasure my foot and she took photos as per what Jackson asks for their full customs. Which was a standing foot tracing, sitting and standing length and width, pictures of foot from different directions. No heel measurement. These were the same measurements they'd asked me to do myself when I was still doing the virtual instead of in person fitting. She initially said she'd just send my own measurements to them but after hearing you guys be like DON'T MEASURE YOUR OWN FEET, I insisted she measure them instead of using my (done with care but probably shoddy in some way) measurements.

The fitter seemed to recommend against rapid custom or even custom quoting previous experiences of people being unhappy with the fit afterwards, and herself having ordered some Riedell customs that had ended up being 3 sizes too large ???

These are red flags. Why would they want to submit measurements that you took on yourself, rather than measurements that they themselves take? Are they trying not to take responsibility for a proper fit?

The cost certainly keeps blowing out so maybe I should just go custom and trust Jackson.

Too much at stake for blind trust. Find out the policy in case of a screw-up; and get it in writing.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

@SunshineCat You need another fitter, run don't walk away from the one you have in NZ. Everglides may be able to help you better, be it virtually. Otherwise, in regards to Graf.... @2sk8 can you help in any way with this?

 

[2sk8]

@SunshineCat You need another fitter, run don't walk away from the one you have in NZ. Everglides may be able to help you better, be it virtually. Otherwise, in regards to Graf.... @2sk8 can you help in any way with this?

Unfortunately, I don't have any personal contact in NZ or Australia. The Graf Figure site lists a dealer in NZ (but the website says nothing about a pro shop so...) and a distributor in Australia. It may be worth contacting them but without a specialist, you won't get the fitting you need. I can say that a professional virtual fitting is an option for GRAF, and custom boots can be ordered - it would likely be a Richmond Special with a last adjustment for the "split" width - that is, rather than selecting A heel and D forefoot, the correct last would be selected for the heel and the last would be adjusted to give the correct width for the ball of the foot. Short of full orthotic, SK8INSOLL might be an option after a correctly fitting boot is selected. If you need more details on a virtual fitting for GRAF, LMK.

 

[SunshineCat]

Remember, the more advanced Jackson stock boots come in split widths, with the heel width nominally one size less than the ball width. When Jacksons were supplied in a single ball width, this was clear: A (ball)/AA (heel); B (ball)/A (heel); C(ball)/B (heel); .... With the current dual-ball-width sizing, the situation is not as clear. The two stock ball widths are R(A/B) and W(C/D), as I explained in a previous post. I emailed Jackson to get clarification on what the corresponding heel sizes are. They first gave me outdated info. After several rounds, they told me: R(A/B) [ball]/AA [heel] and W(C/D) [ball]/B [heel]. I don't have complete confidence in this answer, but that's the best info I got.

FWIW, I have an older pair of men's Jacksons when they were sized in single-ball width (nominally D ball/C heel) and a newer pair of men's Jacksons sized in dual-ball width [nominally (C/D) ball/B heel]. The heels feel the same. Too many variables to make a conclusion as to why that is.

If your ball width is truly greater than a D and your heel width is truly less than an A, then it's highly unlikely you will fit any stock boot from any manufacturer.



All I can give you is my experience in the US from late 2014. As I mentioned before, I'm an adult male skater. With a few exceptions, no shop carries in stock separate figure skating boots for adult men (waaay too small a market). I can't just try a bunch on in the store; they need to be special ordered. My fitter measured and traced my feet according to the Jackson forms. He said I might be able to fit a stock boot, but might need a rapid custom (if my ball width was more than one size greater than my heel width). He sent the info off to Jackson. Their tech rep said I should be OK with a stock size and would not need a rapid custom.



These are red flags. Why would they want to submit measurements that you took on yourself, rather than measurements that they themselves take? Are they trying not to take responsibility for a proper fit?



Too much at stake for blind trust. Find out the policy in case of a screw-up; and get it in writing.

I guess the most important thing about going in person was I got to try on a variety of boots, I was there for a few hours and nothing even came close to fitting well in stock, which is information. From that I assume I don't have stock feet. As well as the fact that through my life I have never walked into a shoe store and fit shoes off the shelf, it's a rare 1% of shoe I search for. The heel lifting was a significant issue with my running shoes width journey as well, even though it wasn't as important as in skating for a tight fit. Even for 'barefoot shoes' which are shaped like this I bought the widest brand of shoe as narrower ones didn't fit.

Thanks for the information about the heel. If the R size is indeed an AA heel then that is possibly around my size, certainly the B is quite roomy at least. But yes hard to know for sure.

I don't think they do take responsibility for the fit - after all they mentioned previous unhappy customers of the rapid customs (who also just chose their size at random? - don't have to wonder why it could go wrong). I did email Jackson who said to deal with them directly.

Yes, I'm certainly not going in blind, that's why I started thinking of Everglides. I don't think I can put this much money on the line just like that.

I'm not sure what you mean by policy in case of screw up - do custom skate manufacturers usually take responsibility as a default policy? I have heard about brands dodging accountability, but also heard about people talking of sending their skates back. I've emailed Jackson anyway.

Jackson have also written back saying they'd need more details and a better tracing from Skaters Edge anyway for the full custom, yeah.

@SunshineCat You need another fitter, run don't walk away from the one you have in NZ. Everglides may be able to help you better, be it virtually. Otherwise, in regards to Graf.... @2sk8 can you help in any way with this?

Thanks for the assurance and help

Unfortunately, I don't have any personal contact in NZ or Australia. The Graf Figure site lists a dealer in NZ (but the website says nothing about a pro shop so...) and a distributor in Australia. It may be worth contacting them but without a specialist, you won't get the fitting you need. I can say that a professional virtual fitting is an option for GRAF, and custom boots can be ordered - it would likely be a Richmond Special with a last adjustment for the "split" width - that is, rather than selecting A heel and D forefoot, the correct last would be selected for the heel and the last would be adjusted to give the correct width for the ball of the foot. Short of full orthotic, SK8INSOLL might be an option after a correctly fitting boot is selected. If you need more details on a virtual fitting for GRAF, LMK.

The NZ Graf supplier store is closed on google maps. I emailed Graf earlier who said they could give me a place in Brisbane if I wanted to try on boots, or I could send them measurements/foot tracing and they'd recommend. The shipping would be $170 NZD though Switzerland ae. Jesus. You do wonder whether they couldn't send it with a bunch of other stock to the Australian supplier or something, then send onto NZ.

That is the positive about ordering custom Jackson from Skaters Edge, they said the shipping cost is included in the boot. But I'll definitely get an opinion from someone like Everglides if I was to do that. Or see if the shipping cost is kinder than the Switzerland one

Thanks for the details, I am curious about the professional virtual fitting for Graf seeing as Graf fit so comfortably on my foot (though a size too long hah). The last adjustment sounds promising.

I'll keep the insole in mind, thanks for the rec.

 

[tstop4me]

I guess the most important thing about going in person was I got to try on a variety of boots, I was there for a few hours and nothing even came close to fitting well in stock, which is information. From that I assume I don't have stock feet. As well as the fact that through my life I have never walked into a shoe store and fit shoes off the shelf, it's a rare 1% of shoe I search for. The heel lifting was a significant issue with my running shoes width journey as well, even though it wasn't as important as in skating for a tight fit. Even for 'barefoot shoes' which are shaped like this I bought the widest brand of shoe as narrower ones didn't fit.

A bit off topic. But for running shoes with a toe box more suited for feet like yours (and mine), take a look at Altra running shoes. According to a Google search, they should be available in New Zealand.

I'm not sure what you mean by policy in case of screw up - do custom skate manufacturers usually take responsibility as a default policy? I have heard about brands dodging accountability, but also heard about people talking of sending their skates back. I've emailed Jackson anyway.

Jackson have also written back saying they'd need more details and a better tracing from Skaters Edge anyway for the full custom, yeah.

I've never ordered customs, but here are three tidbits.

* One skater I know ordered Jackson customs. The heels had a bit of slip. Her tech wanted to send them back for modification. But she didn't want to wait any longer, so accepted them; that was her call.

* In the US, a company well-known for customs is Harlicks. My coach has been a Harlicks fan since she was a competitive and show skater decades ago; she recommends them for her skaters who need customs. But even they sometimes screw up. One year, three skaters got their boots about the same time (from the same local competent tech). Their boots didn't fit right and were sent back. Two were satisfactorily modified. The third was too far off and would have had to be redone from scratch. Since the turnaround at the time was about 1 yr, the skater opted for a refund.

* My current tech told me he was once contacted by Jackson because he had the lowest rate of returns for customs, and they wanted to go over his procedures. Turns out there's a lot of art in taking manual measurements and taking manual tracings.

* So, again, confirm with both Jackson and your dealer what their current policy is for customs that don't fit. Make sure the dealer you use is a Jackson authorized dealer, and make sure they take responsibility for proper fitting. Also confirm turnaround times for initial order and redo.

* Good Luck!.

 

[SunshineCat]

A bit off topic. But for running shoes with a toe box more suited for feet like yours (and mine), take a look at Altra running shoes. According to a Google search, they should be available in New Zealand.



I've never ordered customs, but here are three tidbits.

* One skater I know ordered Jackson customs. The heels had a bit of slip. Her tech wanted to send them back for modification. But she didn't want to wait any longer, so accepted them; that was her call.

* In the US, a company well-known for customs is Harlicks. My coach has been a Harlicks fan since she was a competitive and show skater decades ago; she recommends them for her skaters who need customs. But even they sometimes screw up. One year, three skaters got their skates about the same time (from the same local competent tech). Their boots didn't fit right and were sent back. Two were satisfactorily modified. The third was too far off and would have had to be redone from scratch. Since the turnaround at the time was about 1 yr, the skater opted for a refund.

* My current tech told me he was once contacted by Jackson because he had the lowest rate of returns for customs, and they wanted to go over his procedures. Turns out there's a lot of art in taking manual measurements and taking manual tracings.

* So, again, confirm with both Jackson and your dealer what their current policy is for customs that don't fit. Make sure the dealer you use is a Jackson authorized dealer, and make sure they take responsibility for proper fitting. Also confirm turnaround times for initial order and redo.

* Good Luck!.

Thanks! Good to know there is usually a process if the custom doesn't fit. I will clarify this with Jackson and the dealer.

I don't know how Skaters Edge could take responsibility for the fit, given they did not take most of the measurements required - they've sent me the full form Jackson has provided which is apparently newly received this week (with circumference measurements all through the foot etc). So I will have to do the detailed measurements myself with my partner and do all the research possible to make these accurate. Honestly, I don't feel like flying back to Auckland again as I don't have a great deal of trust in them after this experience. I find it hard to believe Jackson never required anything more than some foot tracings, foot length and ball of foot circumference for full customs in the past. I am nervous about being able to do a good job on them.

I suppose I could do the measurements with Everglides virtually, if they can help with that. And will try to find all the resources I can about measuring properly.

The other option of Graf customs is seeming too expensive with the shipping costs especially if there is back and forth shipping for adjustments.

Someone mentioned Avanta, who can send a foot mould out to you - I wonder if this is better than doing the measurements myself. I hear they are expensive though.

There's so many options when you go custom.

(Off topic: Yes, I tried Altra and I loved the spacious toe box, unfortunately the barefoot shoes ended up being bad for my feet and caused pain, my podiatrist suggested a few different support shoes to try for my low arch. The zero drop also just felt very hard on my achilles. I ended up buying Mizuno Wave Horizon 8 in 2E which fits well in width, but I tried on a million shoes before that. Asics GT-2000 in 2E was close as well.)

 

[SunshineCat]

Skaters Edge have stated neither they nor Jackson take responsibility for the fit and this is their official stance. Also, Jackson won't talk with me directly, only through them.
Well, it's looking a little grim and not very assuring from Jackson.

I had an idea though it's a little odd, actually in New Zealand we don't have lots of skating but I realized skiing is very popular especially in the South Island here! The ski fitters look quite professional from the websites. They do heat molding, custom insoles, punching out etc for ski boots (the ball and socket tool looks like the same one used for figure skates). Ah how I wish there was this kind of infrastructure for skating here. I wonder if one of them could do the custom skate measurements for me, even though it's not for ski boots. And maybe even custom insoles in the future. Skiing has differences but when I went, it was surprisingly similar to ice skating in some ways, in terms of needing heel fit, knee bend, having their own sort of 'edges'. Just a lot more 'coarse' and big in the movements.

Then I could use those measurements (while comparing with my own) and send them to Graf or another custom manufacturer which can actually take boots back if they don't fit correctly. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Query]

If you are referring to the OP, that person is in NZ so I highly doubt they're coming to Baltimore or Delaware to see a podiatrist.

True. I know of people who visit skating specialists while visiting countries for other reasons. But at the moment getting visas to the U.S.A. is harder than a few years past, so it's even more unlikely. Which is why I didn't list the podiatrist names in question.

Even if you are very careful to trace your own feet the ways people recommend, bending down to do so changes your weight distribution, and likely changes the angles your feet make with the floor. And if another non-expert does the tracing, there are many mistakes that can be made. E.g., people often want you to make one tracing around the outside of the foot with a vertical pen, and another that is angled inwards as far as you can. But I think the second part would be hard to do, because it isn't clear how much pressure to use. And that doesn't really give you the full shape of the bottom of the foot. The reality is that really good skate fitters get trained by the specific boot manufacturers or their reps, to fit their particular brand of skate. And even so they don't always get a great fit.

Skiing has a lot of similarities to skating, in terms of the importance of snugness of fit. But most skiers don't do figure skating moves. Even the freestyle skiing jumps and spins look different to me - perhaps more like gymnastics? So muscle use in the two sports is significantly different. And AFAIK, most ski boots don't have heels as elevated or feet as bent as most figure skates. This may be out of date but ski fitters often use heat molded cork insoles to fit the space between the feet and downhill ski boots, which sounds very good to me. But molded cork insoles haven't been popular in skates - perhaps there is a good reason? (E.g., the snow cushions jump landings more than the ice, so a hard insole might be better?) Cross country skiers sometimes use liners inside very high end boots that are heat shrinked around the feet, to make a good fit, though that is pretty expensive too. But I think most cross country skiers use looser fits than most figure skaters. And those liners aren't as high as figure skates - though the heat shrinkable inline skate liners used with some high end inline skates are...

I think some ski shops do custom ski boot foot castings. But, ski shop technicians probably haven't been trained by the boot manufacturers to fit the particular brands of figure skate boot you want, which would worry me.

I'm sure the best ski shop technicians are good at their jobs, and some of them work with skates too. (I used to know one who worked on skis, hockey skates, figure skates, and speed skates, as well as inline skates and bicycles. I used him for my skates for a while.) Plus they have boot presses that are more than strong enough to stretch skates. And heat molding ovens, though I don't know if the temperature ranges are the same as for skates. But there is a risk they might not be as good with skates. (BTW, sharpening skis with metal edges is apparently a lot different than sharpening ice skates.) I guess you could talk to those ski shop technicians and ask how much experience they have with skates (especially figure skates), and comfortable they are doing such fittings. You might get lucky and find one who figure skates, and has some idea what they are doing.

Do any of you have more info than that on the differences between fits that ski shops and and skate shops make?

Also, as with skates, some ski fitters are better than others. And fits by the good ones are pretty expensive too.

You maybe don't have a lot of good options...

 

[SunshineCat]

True. I know of people who visit skating specialists while visiting countries for other reasons. But at the moment getting visas to the U.S.A. is harder than a few years past, so it's even more unlikely. Which is why I didn't list the podiatrist names in question.

Even if you are very careful to trace your own feet the ways people recommend, bending down to do so changes your weight distribution, and likely changes the angles your feet make with the floor. And if another non-expert does the tracing, there are many mistakes that can be made. E.g., people often want you to make one tracing around the outside of the foot with a vertical pen, and another that is angled inwards as far as you can. But I think the second part would be hard to do, because it isn't clear how much pressure to use. And that doesn't really give you the full shape of the bottom of the foot. The reality is that really good skate fitters get trained by the specific boot manufacturers or their reps, to fit their particular brand of skate. And even so they don't always get a great fit.

Skiing has a lot of similarities to skating, in terms of the importance of snugness of fit. But most skiers don't do figure skating moves. Even the freestyle skiing jumps and spins look different to me - perhaps more like gymnastics? So muscle use in the two sports is significantly different. And AFAIK, most ski boots don't have heels as elevated or feet as bent as most figure skates. This may be out of date but ski fitters often use heat molded cork insoles to fit the space between the feet and downhill ski boots, which sounds very good to me. But molded cork insoles haven't been popular in skates - perhaps there is a good reason? (E.g., the snow cushions jump landings more than the ice, so a hard insole might be better?) Cross country skiers sometimes use liners inside very high end boots that are heat shrinked around the feet, to make a good fit, though that is pretty expensive too. But I think most cross country skiers use looser fits than most figure skaters. And those liners aren't as high as figure skates - though the heat shrinkable inline skate liners used with some high end inline skates are...

I think some ski shops do custom ski boot foot castings. But, ski shop technicians probably haven't been trained by the boot manufacturers to fit the particular brands of figure skate boot you want, which would worry me.

I'm sure the best ski shop technicians are good at their jobs, and some of them work with skates too. (I used to know one who worked on skis, hockey skates, figure skates, and speed skates, as well as inline skates and bicycles. I used him for my skates for a while.) Plus they have boot presses that are more than strong enough to stretch skates. And heat molding ovens, though I don't know if the temperature ranges are the same as for skates. But there is a risk they might not be as good with skates. (BTW, sharpening skis with metal edges is apparently a lot different than sharpening ice skates.) I guess you could talk to those ski shop technicians and ask how much experience they have with skates (especially figure skates), and comfortable they are doing such fittings. You might get lucky and find one who figure skates, and has some idea what they are doing.

Do any of you have more info than that on the differences between fits that ski shops and and skate shops make?

Also, as with skates, some ski fitters are better than others. And fits by the good ones are pretty expensive too.

You maybe don't have a lot of good options...

Unfortunately I don't think I'm travelling anywhere anytime soon. We are considering a Japan trip end of next year, though I don't speak Japanese and that's a year away.

Hmm certainly skiing has many differences. And I can see that a lot of the art of fitting skates is from specific guidance from the boot manufacturers. I was hopeful I'd have some kind of local help, honestly it's been a stressful journey thinking of trying to do it on my own even if with guidance from a virtual fitter. From research it looks like they measure length width and instep, and don't do foot tracings, so it seems a bit of a dead end.

About the specific measuring techniques, hopefully I can get some guidance from a virtual fitter about this, and pass that information to my partner. 2ks8 has given me Sileckysports in USA for virtual fitting, and a local Brisbane skater and Graf have given me a Brisbane Graf fitter http://hrpmsharpening.com/, seems a good option.

At this point I think having a boot manufacturer who's willing to adjust the boot afterwards seems important.

All in all I'm sure at least it's going to fit better than my current skates...I've decided to give up on them for now. Whenever I try a true outside edge they seem to suddenly 'collapse' from beneath me, as if my foot moved in the boot. I never used to fall often so I'm assuming the Freestyles have broken in too much and gotten even bigger. Plus I think the toebox stretching has actually worsened them being too long, as before the too narrow toe box probably stopped my feet actually sitting in the front of the boot properly.

Thank you all for your support along this journey, I think without it I might have lost hope much sooner! (or probably accepted some sales tactics and bought something unsuitable)

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thanks! Good to know there is usually a process if the custom doesn't fit. I will clarify this with Jackson and the dealer.

I don't know how Skaters Edge could take responsibility for the fit, given they did not take most of the measurements required - they've sent me the full form Jackson has provided which is apparently newly received this week (with circumference measurements all through the foot etc). So I will have to do the detailed measurements myself with my partner and do all the research possible to make these accurate. Honestly, I don't feel like flying back to Auckland again as I don't have a great deal of trust in them after this experience. I find it hard to believe Jackson never required anything more than some foot tracings, foot length and ball of foot circumference for full customs in the past. I am nervous about being able to do a good job on them.

I suppose I could do the measurements with Everglides virtually, if they can help with that. And will try to find all the resources I can about measuring properly.

The other option of Graf customs is seeming too expensive with the shipping costs especially if there is back and forth shipping for adjustments.

Someone mentioned Avanta, who can send a foot mould out to you - I wonder if this is better than doing the measurements myself. I hear they are expensive though.

There's so many options when you go custom.

(Off topic: Yes, I tried Altra and I loved the spacious toe box, unfortunately the barefoot shoes ended up being bad for my feet and caused pain, my podiatrist suggested a few different support shoes to try for my low arch. The zero drop also just felt very hard on my achilles. I ended up buying Mizuno Wave Horizon 8 in 2E which fits well in width, but I tried on a million shoes before that. Asics GT-2000 in 2E was close as well.)

Please don't have ski fitters do your measurements, it's not the same at all.