Oda or Lysacek?

[dancingqueen]

If we throw in Ponsero, Preaubert and Brezina, we are talking about The Greatest Show on Earth It's there in Vancouver!

For me, the greatest show on Earth is Takahashi this season . Besides his stepwork, his expression, and interpretation of the character of the theme are amazing, plus he knows how to use his body in a well-balanced way for the movements. However, your line-up that you posted, I’ve never thought they are a great show on earth.

Oda or Lysacek ? If I had to pick one of them, I will take Oda.

 

[*Sniper*]

I think you are both full of baloney - but am sure Evan uses such ridiculous sentiments to fuel his training - along with remarks from Plushenko.

And Merry Christmas germanice and sniper - thanks for your warm holiday words and sentiments.

I hope your favorite skaters stay healthy and have a great experience in Vancouver.

Go Evan - World Champion of 2009.

Ah sorry about that.
I hate it when I read something written negatively about my favorite skaters, but sometimes I end up doing the same against my non-faves.
My apologies!

Lysacek is just one of those skaters I simply can't bring myself to appreciate (and there are few others).
More than anything, his "artistic" arm flailing leaves me wondering whether I'm watching propellers going off on the ice (due to his long limbs).

No, I won't cheer for him to win any medal at the Olympics, but I won't be booing him, either.
So the best of luck to him.

And happy new year to you, janetfan!

 

[kiz_4Ever]

I think Plushenko will win hi 2nd OGM (if he doesn't break before), and I really like this idea
But if I had to pick one among Evan and Oda, I would say Oda. He's more a complete skater IMO, while Evan is a great competitor, but I don't really get his style...
I also fear that if it will end up between those two, Evan's PCS (or...should I say reputation?) will make the difference and he will win..

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I wouldn't worry about who between Nobu and Evan is the better. They have both proven to be top contenders. The whole point of a competition is who is the best that day. In the case of figure skating, results rely on its complicated scoring system.

The Technical part of the scoring is basically sound and is similar to other judged sports. Imo, there could be improvements with regard to marking each element with one score rather than adding and subtracting GoEs. One score per element is used in all judged sports.

The bigger problem is with the PC scores. In its efforts to regularize the "Whole Package, they've lost the essence of the Artistry portion of the sport. Musicality, for example is one item among many, many others which border on the technical part of the score.It doesn't take much for the casual-in-house spectator to notice Nobu's natural gift of musicality, but then Evan seems to excell in many other criteria tied to the PC.

The problem of arguing these points is futile since there is no public accountability of the judges. It's secret!

 

[Mathman]

The Technical part of the scoring is basically sound and is similar to other judged sports. Imo, there could be improvements with regard to marking each element with one score rather than adding and subtracting GoEs. One score per element is used in all judged sports.

I don't think that last statement is quite correct. I think almost all judged sports have different factors that are added up to give the final score for each element. In diving, for instance, for each dive the judges give a score based on the quality of the dive according to the following bullets, which are a mix of objective (the height of the board) and subjective ("properly aligned body including pointed toes," "entry angle and amount of splash.").

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving

Usually a score considers three elements of the dive: the approach, the flight, and the entry. The primary factors affecting the scoring are:

* the platform selected (10 meter, 7.5 meter, or 5 meter)
* if a hand-stand is required, the length of time and quality of the hold
* the height of the diver at the apex of the dive, with extra height resulting in a higher score
* the distance of the diver from the diving apparatus throughout the dive (a diver must not be dangerously close, should not be too far away, but should ideally be within 2 feet (0.61 m) of the platform)
* the properly defined body position of the diver according to the dive being performed, including pointed toes and feet touching at all times
* the proper amounts of rotation and revolution upon completion of the dive and entry into the water
* angle of entry - a diver should enter the water straight, without any angle. Many judges award divers for the amount of splash created by the diver on entry, with less splash resulting in a higher score.

The highest and lowest judges' scores are dropped, the remaining judges' scores are averaged, then this average is multiplied by the "degree of difficulty." The degree of difficulty would correspond to the "base value" in figure skating and the judges' marks to the GOEs.

For gymnastics, here is a summary of the scoring system, including the three general criteria that make up the "D-score" (Difficulty score, similar to base value + GOE), and the "E-score" (Execution Score, measunmg the "execution and artistry" of the perfromance, similar to the PCSs.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Points_(artistic_gymnastics)

In fact, this lead-in to the Wikipedia article sounded quite familiar.

In 2006, the Code of Points and the entire gymnastics scoring system were completely overhauled. The change stemmed from the judging controversy at 2004 Olympics in Athens, which brought the reliability and objectivity of the scoring system into question, and arguments that execution had been sacrificed for difficulty in artistic gymnastics.It follows a similarly radical scoring change in figure skating that also was prompted by irregularities in judging at major events.

Since its inception in major events in 2006, the Code has faced strong opposition from many prominent coaches, athletes and judges. Proponents of the new system believe it is a necessary step for the advancement of gymnastics, promoting difficult skills and more objective judging. Opponents feel that people outside the gymnastics community will not understand the scoring and will lose interest in gymnastics, and that without the emphasis on artistry, the essence of the sport will change. Many opponents of the new scoring system feel that this new scoring system, in essence, chooses the winners before the competition ever begins....

There has been dissent over the fact that the new Code effectively abolishes the "perfect 10" score, for many years one of the hallmarks of gymnastics. There has also been concern that the new Code strongly favors extreme difficulty over form, execution and consistency. At the 2006 World Championships, for instance, Vanessa Ferrari of Italy was able to controversially win the women's all-around title in spite of a fall on the balance beam, in part by picking up extra points from performing high-difficulty skills on the floor exercise.

Jana Bieger was robbed!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

c

I don't think that last statement is qg uite correct. I think almost all judged sports have different factors that are added up to give the final score for each element. In diving, for instance, for each dive the judges give a score based on the quality of the dive according to the following bullets, which are a mix of objective (the height of the board) and subjective ld("properly aligned body including pointed toes," "entry angle and amount of splash.").

I think you made my point even strongeer. If the elements were on a scale of 1-10, (10 being the perfect camel spin, eg.) then multiplied by the factor for a camel spin, we would have the realistic mark for for the element without the
fuss of a minus or plus GoEs. It all would be included in one mark for that Ielement. The marks for all the elements would be summed up for the grand total of the Technical Score. For the in-house audience, the marks could be shown on the Jumbothon and also on TV. A happy audience. Of course this would eliminate the Short Program and that would irk the lovers 'artistry'

The PC would revert to the Free Skate, and allow the skater to show his program with music, style and innovation and with no major restrictions to the skaters,

However, a competition like this would require some thought and fine tuning.

 

[Mathman]

I think you made my point even strongeer. If the elements were on a scale of 1-10, (10 being the perfect camel spin, eg.) then multiplied by the factor for a camel spin, we would have the realistic mark for for the element without the fuss of a minus or plus GoEs. .. .

I like it! So if a perfect camel spin is worth 3.0 points, then the skater's score for this element could range from 0.3 points (the word's worst camel spin) to the full 3.0 (a perfect one.)

This would actually put more responsibility on the judges and less on the Technical Panel. For a triple Lutz, all the tech panel would do is say, yes, that was a triple Lutz ( = correct edge take-off and three full revolutions). Then the judges would decide whether it was a bad, average, or good triple Lutz.

This would still have a subjective element to the judging, though -- one judge might think the element deserved a 4 and another might think it deserved a 5.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I like it! So if a perfect camel spin is worth 3.0 points, then the skater's score for this element could range from 0.3 points (the word's worst camel spin) to the full 3.0 (a perfect one.)

This would actually put more rensponsibility on the judges and less on the Technical Panel. For a triple Lutz, all the tech panel would do is say, yes, that was a triple Lutz ( = correct edge take-off and three full revolutions). Then the judges would decide whether it was bad, average, or good triple Lutz.

This would still have a subjective element to the judging, though -- one judge might think the element deserved a 4 and another might think it deserved a 5.

Indeed, there would be no need for a Technical Panel, and the judges would again be empowered to judge the technical segment of the competition. as judges should be.

The Tech Panel would not decide wrong edge takeoffs, underrotations, levels. Judges have been doing that for years and are quite capable of continuing. All slomo videos should be with each judge. (and one for the Jumbothon) . The Tech Panel should vanish. The Referee is there to iron out discrepancies.

Let each judge decide how poorly or how perfectly that lutz was executed by lowering the scale of perfection giving less points to errors-of-definitions; and, of course, awarding a well executed lutz closer to 10, Then comes the Lutz factoring which assumes the lutz is more difficult than the Flip.

When all the factored elements are summed up, we have a sporty winner of the Technical portion of the whole score.

Then let the Free Skate begin. The judges to decide who presented the finest showcase of figure skating to music with a factor of 40%. Subjective??? Of course. what else can it be?

(we should have discussed this in a separate thread for additional input.)

 

[Tinymavy15]

Has anybody been over to Toyota Sports Center lately to see Evan? I really should get over and see how those quads are coming along.