Okay Ladies Enough of the Biellmann Spin Already!

[lcd]

I can do a reverse Beillmann... that involves bending over ...uuuunnngh.... and grabbing the bottom of my slippers, getting dizzy from the exertion, and spinning on my way to the floor

 

[Ladskater]

I wonder how many of the posters on this board can do the biellmann position. I tried it once myself and figured that you gotta be super flexible to do that.

Indeed!!! I am certainly not flexible enough. Good thing I never had to worry about it. I did learn a good basic camel spin and could grab my anke and spin, but it was in a regular camel spin position. Oh how things have progressed!!

I can do a reverse Beillmann... that involves bending over ...uuuunnngh.... and grabbing the bottom of my slippers, getting dizzy from the exertion, and spinning on my way to the floor

Ha, ha...

 

[beep_beep]

I wonder how many of the posters on this board can do the biellmann position. I tried it once myself and figured that you gotta be super flexible to do that.

I did rhythmic gymnastics from 4 to 12 years old, and ballet from 4 to 17. I'm almost 29 and I can still do it ! Some of my friends that started to train their flexibility in their late 20's are getting to do it too.

Of course, getting into the positions is one thing, doing it on a skate while spinning...

 

[mskater93]

I wonder how many of the posters on this board can do the biellmann position. I tried it once myself and figured that you gotta be super flexible to do that.

No, definitely cannot do it. I dislike even the haircutter position as it stresses my quad out

 

[Spun Silver]

Your quad?? Could we have another hint?

 

[Mafke]

I think what's really creepy is that Mirai and Caroline have such flexible backs that it isn't even a strain for them to practically wrap their spines around the backs of their heads!

ITA. With flexibility moves, there's a very fine line between impressive and grotesque. I find the way both Nagasu and Zhang pull their heads back to be just icky, suggesting decapitation (though I like headless spins, which I can't recall seeing recently, another lost skill?).

For me a well-executed Biellmann requires:

1. both hands on the skate (I disliked Slute's cheat with one hand on the skate and the other on her wrist).

2. The upper body and leg should form a tear shape. Slute and Zhang look like donuts on a stick, their upper bodies tend to be too parallel to the ice.

3. The head should be between the arms (again, I find the head thrown back to be grotesque).

All things considered Czisny has a good a Biellmann as anyone out there today ..... and I'm still sick of them. I'd really like for it to disappear for a few years and then reappear only in skaters who can really do them well.

 

[vlaurend]

I wonder how many of the posters on this board can do the biellmann position. I tried it once myself and figured that you gotta be super flexible to do that.

My back is very stiff and it's probably too late to do anything about that, but fortunately, IJS accepts the one-handed catch-foot spiral (with free foot higher than the head) as a difficult variation, and I've worked on my hamstring and hip flexor flexibility enough that I can do that on both left and right foot. So I can still get a level 4 on my spiral sequence, but unfortunately, that position doesn't really work for a spin (at least not unless you're an amazingly good spinner, which I am not).

 

[DarkestMoon]

I don't know - that's a bit like saying "Enough of the layback" because we see a lot of mediocre-to-ugly laybacks. I only get annoyed when a skater has been around long enough to know better but still doesn't improve the spin position, e.g., Fumie Suguri, who has always had an atrocious layback.

Well, to be fair, Fumie did acquire a back/neck injury during her Zhulin years. I don't think she can physically do a layback any better. If that's the case, then so be it. Try your best and just take the deductions if it's out of your physical capability.

I hate the layback spin (up there with the butt spin). Watching it makes my scoliosis-spine hurt. Kudos to the women who can do them "aesthetically pleasing" to the eye but I feel for the skaters who are killing themselves to improve on it.

 

[Eurofan]

But the neck/back injury wouldn't affect her ability to turn out the free foot, would it? (I have no idea, hence the question.) That's one area where I have to agree with Uncle Dick. The toe pointed at the ice looks bad.

 

[antmanb]

Your quad?? Could we have another hint?

I think the poster meant it hurt his/her quadricep muscle or quad for short (doing the hair cutter position)

But the neck/back injury wouldn't affect her ability to turn out the free foot, would it? (I have no idea, hence the question.) That's one area where I have to agree with Uncle Dick. The toe pointed at the ice looks bad.

I'm not so sure - even trying it in a very rudimentary way, stand up, lean back as far as you can with your head/upper back, push your hips forward for balance. Pick up one leg by bending your knee. Now if you try to push the thigh back that gets harder and seems to put more strain on your back - now try and lift that knee up and out and try to turn out so that your instep is parallel to the floor and not toe down. Firstly i can't do it i don't have the flexibility, but secondly - it really did put a strain on my back trying.

Ant

 

[Mafke]

Firstly i can't do it i don't have the flexibility, but secondly - it really did put a strain on my back trying.

Well IINM you're a man and IINM men basically can't do the classic layback position because of pelvic issues (leaving aside center of gravity issues).

I've seen men go into very short slightly laybackish positions but I can't think of a man that's ever done a full classic layback.

 

[antmanb]

Well IINM you're a man and IINM men basically can't do the classic layback position because of pelvic issues (leaving aside center of gravity issues).

I've seen men go into very short slightly laybackish positions but I can't think of a man that's ever done a full classic layback.

I was going to caveat my post with that, but if the issue is turnout of the free leg generally then men's and women's muscles must feel it in the same way? Perhaps not though.

I know when i do a front camel spin with the free leg at least approximating hip height and turned out, what aches afterwards (other than the hamstring on the spinning leg) is the muscle down the right hand side of the small of my back. If i do too many then it can leave me with a lot of pain in that side of my back.

Ant

 

[Mafke]

if the issue is turnout of the free leg generally then men's and women's muscles must feel it in the same way? Perhaps not though.

Well turn out of the free leg is at least partially a function of pelvic structure (I always thought.... I could be wrong I guess).

Also, there seem to be individual differences in ease and degree of turnout.

Overall, females will find turn out to be easier than men though there's going to be a range of variation within women as to how much they can turn out (especially with the leg raised, Kwan for example seemed to be able to get turnout only in the dropped leg position).

There are also training issues. I have the impression that lots of european ladies don't even attempt any turnout (though some could if they had been so trained). I think it's just not part of the way laybacks are trained in some places.

 

[antmanb]

Well turn out of the free leg is at least partially a function of pelvic structure (I always thought.... I could be wrong I guess).

Also, there seem to be individual differences in ease and degree of turnout.

Overall, females will find turn out to be easier than men though there's going to be a range of variation within women as to how much they can turn out (especially with the leg raised, Kwan for example seemed to be able to get turnout only in the dropped leg position).

There are also training issues. I have the impression that lots of european ladies don't even attempt any turnout (though some could if they had been so trained). I think it's just not part of the way laybacks are trained in some places.

I think you're onto something there - the young girls at our rink (including the hopefuls) never seem to have their free leg positions criticised by the coaches. I think the attitude in the rinks is - its a layback spin, not a high-turned-out-free-leg-layback spin. I think a lot of the reason behind the more north american free leg position is the ranting of Dick Button.

Ant

 

[mskater93]

Your quad?? Could we have another hint?

Yeah, the haircutter position pulls funny on the front of my quad when I try it. It could just be that I am OLD.