other kinds of female artistry

[Blades of Passion]

Stephanie Rosenthal!

SP 2006 Rockit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rnkku5aJzZM

One of the best things about this program is Dick Button loving it despite the jumps not being top notch!

The audience also loved it.

Yup, I was going to add both of those too! And I think those were a good example of IJS being used well, since she got significantly higher scores for choreography, etc., than for skating skills.

Except her PCS were still comparatively quite low in comparison to the "frontrunners". If the IJS were truly being used well, her PCS for that SP performance would have been the highest of the competition (even better than Sasha Cohen, who was sick during this competition and it showed). The amount of choreographic movement in that program of Stephanie's was incredibly demanding and it was creative, worked together seamlessly, excellent with the music, and performed with one of the biggest and most constant smiles I've ever seen.

 

[skateluvr]

YuNa certainly has a traditional beauty but her Danse Macbre shows other kinds of female artistry.

Yuna is fairy princess from waist up but more like sleek greyhound or racehorse with those legs and the way she flys into big jumps covering so much ice.

Yuna is like a hybrid, jumps like a man with pretty upper arm positions. She isn't really classical legs, feet, turnout but they molded her. She could now skate to some really different choreography. Would be great to see her work with Camerlengo, or Daisuke's Japanese choreographer. I wish for her athleticism to be at high levels again and try non traditional, unique programs.

 

[evangeline]

Joannie Rochette and Cynthia Phaneuf have skating styles that are polished; they can be sexy (in exhibitions) or elegant in a more restrained way, yet they are very powerful. Neither is a princess; they express womanliness in a different way.

I think quite a few of Cynthia's programs (Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini, Nocturne, Claire de Lune etc) are very soft and pretty in a very traditional, rather princessy way in not only style and choreography but also the choice of music.

But I do think she has the potential for less traditional styles, and I think it will probably suit Cynthia more than programs like her very traditionally pretty LP this year.

 

[aftertherain]

1/ Lu Chen had such grace in this 1996 Worlds short program. Her arm movements were so delicate and fluid and her spins had such gracefuls notes to them; these aspects are things that I have never seen Michelle or Yu-Na do, and I honestly doubt they could be able to pull them off half as well as she did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bt98gppjr0

2/ This Samson and Delilah (interpretative?) program from 2003 Hallmark is the most graceful and artistic I have ever seen Irina Slutskaya. I think her flowy and light dress suited this program well and I do think that costumes are integral to artistry as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qql51Zj9e_E

Neither of the programs ooze sex appeal, but rather enhance their natural body movements with grace and elegance.

 

[billeh]

I'd just like to thank everyone for the excellent discourse in this thread and in the feminism thread, which was moved to the politics area for some reason. I've really appreciated folks' comments and insights.

 

[russell30]

Great thread!!

Other great examples

Angela Nikodinov - Just for you sp 2001, This was femininity and beauty all rolled into one, the audience was spellbound watching this, the opening pose was a great reflection of the what was to come.

lu Chen - Piano Concerto No2 lp 1996 This took artistry to another level with fluidity, poise and softness on the ice.

Zuzanna Szwed - The Teacher lp 1997 Creative program with elegant touches and the music was so original, only Zuzanna could skate to and was a joy to watch.

Vanessa Gusmeroli - Legends of the Fall lp 2000 That was art to the next level, the program was so expressive, note all the spins were done in the closing section of the program, opposite directions too.

Michelle Kwan - Lyra lp 1998 Very connecting and engaging program that showed so much beauty, goes down as one of the best program's of overwhelming artistry.

Maria Butyrskaya - Tale of wandering lp 2002 , Maria has to be mentioned with this program as it showed a womans performance of maturity and beauty, Maria was in her prime years and showed so much sex appeal.

Kiira Korpi - Over the rainbow sp 2011 No one has so much photographers around her for her stunning looks than Kiira. A movie star on the ice, her over the rainbow program shows us her beauty and artistry to the max.

Yu Na Kim - 007 sp 2010 We have to mention Yu Na last as she has taken female skating to a higher level, we had Witt, then Kwan, now Yuna leads the way for female skating, her 007 Sp shows her power, speed, grace and beauty rolled into one, her technical prowess and stunning artistry was breathtaking.

 

[gkelly]

What about other choices that female skaters have made? What are some good examples of successful female artistry that's not primarily about beauty or sex appeal?

Angela Nikodinov - Just for you sp 2001, This was femininity and beauty all rolled into one, the audience was spellbound watching this, the opening pose was a great reflection of the what was to come.

lu Chen - Piano Concerto No2 lp 1996 This took artistry to another level with fluidity, poise and softness on the ice.

Zuzanna Szwed - The Teacher lp 1997 Creative program with elegant touches and the music was so original, only Zuzanna could skate to and was a joy to watch.

Michelle Kwan - Lyra lp 1998 Very connecting and engaging program that showed so much beauty, goes down as one of the best program's of overwhelming artistry.

Maria Butyrskaya - Tale of wandering lp 2002 , Maria has to be mentioned with this program as it showed a womans performance of maturity and beauty, Maria was in her prime years and showed so much sex appeal.

Kiira Korpi - Over the rainbow sp 2011 No one has so much photographers around her for her stunning looks than Kiira. A movie star on the ice, her over the rainbow program shows us her beauty and artistry to the max.

Yu Na Kim - 007 sp 2010 We have to mention Yu Na last as she has taken female skating to a higher level, we had Witt, then Kwan, now Yuna leads the way for female skating, her 007 Sp shows her power, speed, grace and beauty rolled into one, her technical prowess and stunning artistry was breathtaking.

Great examples of traditional female artistry, but they probably belong in a different thread. This thread is about programs where beauty and sex appeal are NOT the point.

I do love that program of Lu Chen's, but here's one that fits the thread better, with other things going on in the choreography.

Some more examples:

Laetitia Hubert

Gusmeroli

Rochette

 

[mskater93]

Tara Lipinski had a different artistic style. Her Olympic year programs embraced her youth and athleticism, her joie de vie. Although I was not a huge fan, she definitely brought a different style to the ice (and 3+3s) which is what enabled her to beat the beautiful Lyra program. If she had chosen a program in a similar style to what Kwan was putting out, she would have been buried.

 

[Olympia]

I agree on all counts, mskater93. I preferred Michelle, but I'm glad Tara skated to her own strengths. Even her costumes were in her own direction, much less mature, often with sleeves and high necks.

I also like the fact that Irina stayed true to her personality. Though her skating smoothed out with maturity, I don't think that was because she was trying to be more princess-like. I think she was just trying to refine her moves and the transition from one to the next, as any maturing skater would. She retained that tomboyish verve.

Along these lines, though not a singles skater, I always was impressed that Albena Denkova didn't put on a lot of glamor as an ice dancer. She and Staviski often had similar shaggy, modern hairstyles, with hers just a bit longer, and she didn't have a lot of sparkly makeup. This made her stand out from the other ice dancers, who tend to have an unusually high "princess quotient" among skaters. Could this be because ice dancers as a group are often older than ladies' singles and pairs skaters, because they don't have to be so small? (They do neither triple jumps nor high lifts and throws.) Thus their faces are more mature and their bone structure more defined. I'm making a broad generalization here, so surely there are exceptions--many! Like Kiira Korpi.

 

[mskater93]

ooo, yes, totally agree with Irina on this. Actually, I think once she embraced her style (that tomboyish verve as you so rightly called it), she was able to add a level of elegance and completion to her transitions.

 

[gkelly]

I think a lot of skaters who choose non-princessy styles do so because they know they don't have the right kind of talent or the right body type to do well in the classic style. E.g., those who don't excel at glide and stretch. One could think of the choices as covering up or making the best of deficiencies. So it's also interesting to look for examples of skaters who can do classicism well but sometimes choose to something else.

 

[mskater93]

If everyone had the same body type and talent and skated in the classic style it would be a snoozer which is why other styles such as what Tara, Irina, Tonya, and Midori have put forth should be embraced. I think that's one of the complaints a lot of people have about the Ladies' discipline right now - cookie cutter.

 

[brightphoton]

On the contrary, the princess style is the default, easiest style to pull off.

Expression: can be the same throughout the program, a gentle smile, an occasional big smile, an occasional smaller smile, a serene smile, etc.
Speed: can be slow, after all you're a princess.
Costume: generic pastel, anything cute will do
Arm movements: keep them in the ballet positions, no need to deviate from the norm

 

[dorispulaski]

Which is why I don't watch the ladies very often

 

[gkelly]

Well, it does take skating skill to pull it off well, in the sense of maintaining a fluid gliding motion while performing steps with (we hope) some difficulty/complexity and achieving good alignment, extension, etc. That's why it's encouraged and rewarded in the first place -- to show off those basic skills.

And subtle nuanced response to the music takes more interpretive skill than than interpreting whole phrases as monolithic chunks. So the artistic princesses are more musical than the less artistic skaters who just choose that style as a default.

But what it doesn't take, especially at the superficial default level, is creativity.

 

[Olympia]

But the skaters we remember forever aren't skating at the default level. Just because there are a lot of insipid artistic skaters doesn't make artistic skating insipid as a variety. Don't mistake the stereotype for the archetype.

As an example, there used to be a genre of novels popular with girls and women known as romantic suspense. Generally, a young woman was caught up in an adventure that took her to an exotic and dangerous setting, and a heroic man was usually involved, though the woman pulled her weight in the adventure. This was a goodly time ago, so she didn't have the martial arts or weapons skills possessed by today's action heroines. There were trite examples of this genre by the dozens. But if you dismissed the genre as trite, you would be missing out on the work of at least one incomparable writer, Mary Stewart. (She later wrote Arthurian novels, but her first books were romantic suspense.) Her tense plots and evocative descriptive powers made her a memorable writer who elevated the genre. The difference between other writers' books and hers was, as Mark Twain would say, like the difference between a lightning bug and lightning. There are skaters like that, too. Some of them might come across as princesses. But really, they're queens. Possibly empresses.

 

[Pepe Nero]

I'm a little late to this discussion, but I'm so glad it's here. Thanks, gkelly! And thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion and links. I've watched several terrific programs I'd not seen before or in a long time.

The first person that came to my mind (also mentioned earlier in the thread) is Alena Leonova. I don't always love her choices, but she's certainly an original. I can't recall her ever doing a traditional "princess" program. And I do really like her Pirates of the Caribbean SP this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gxEzCFemik

One other thought, though maybe this deserves its own thread: I don't think current and recent past female skaters lag so far behind the male skaters in terms of originality/creativity as this discussion might suggest at points. With a handful of exceptions (recent people who come to mind right now are Takahashi, Abbott, and Weir), I think most male skaters fall into one of four categories: (1) the stoic warrior, (2) the (heterosexual) suitor, (3) the clown, and (4) those with no character or interpretation at all.

I think (4) may be as common among the men as "the princess" is among the women. In both cases, I think we're seeing--not so surprisingly--the effect of traditional gender socialization and norms. (For women, gender norms encourage being delicate, passive, receptive, etc., whereas for men, gender norms discourage expressiveness and displays of most kinds of emotion.)

 

[Olympia]

That's an interesting point, Pepe. I think one of the reasons the Russians (and before them the Soviets) have historically been so great at pairs skating and ice dancing (and then later also men's singles) is that in Russia, dance is considered manly. A lot of that comes from the folk dance tradition, which is very ancient but also very popular today. Didn't Gordeyeva's father (maybe also her mother) belong to a folk troupe? So you got a wider spectrum of boys going into skating, and you also got them expressing more emotion when they did skate. Look at someone like Yagudin, or Artur Dmitriev? (I mean Artur Senior, the pairs skater.) This is a stereotype, I know, but a lot of boys in North America probably stay away from skating (or have to learn how to defend themselves in a fight if they become skaters) because of how it's popularly perceived.

 

[mmcdermott]

This is a stereotype, I know, but a lot of boys in North America probably stay away from skating (or have to learn how to defend themselves in a fight if they become skaters) because of how it's popularly perceived.

At the end of this season's Battle of the Blades, David Pelletier thanked the hockey players for treating skating with respect, and not making fun of it the way he was teased when he was younger. There are probably a lot of boys who wouldn't try, or stay in, figure skating for this reason...

When thinking about this topic I was wondering about the men too. I do think there is more variety there (4 general categories is better than 1!), but do they feel like they have to choose more masculine music and costumes? Is it safer this way? But, then, there are skaters who are very strong artistically and will probably be more comfortable exploring that (like Abbott, Weir, Takahashi), whereas other skaters might prefer not to push the limits in that way...

ETA: And those four styles Pepe describes for men explore more of a range of who a man is: he can be a warrior, a lover, a clown, an artist. A woman can just be a pretty princess.

 

[gkelly]

When thinking about this topic I was wondering about the men too. I do think there is more variety there (4 general categories is better than 1!),

Well, I think there are 3 main categories for women, or maybe 4 if you count those with no character and interpretation at all.

1) beautiful, lyrical, classical (and chaste)
2) sexy
3) perky

With subsets of each.

And then there's everything else, as listed in this thread, of which there are too few examples of each to count as whole categories. Maybe female skaters taking on masculine hero-style characters (like Witt's Robin Hood or Leonova's pirate) would be a small category of its own.

For men, over the last 30+ years that I've seen videos from, I can come up with a few more categories. Shall I start a new thread?