This is a hypothetical question and may very well be off topic so feel free to ignore me, but let's say you have a skater with dual citizenship (say russian and israeli), could this said skater compete in the team event for Israel and then for Russia in the individual?
Pairs & Dance Teams with Citizenship Issues
- Thread starter Weathergal
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- Jan 28, 2013
That is an interesting question, one that I had not thought of before.
My guess (emphasis on guess) is that the answer is "no" since participation in the Games is determined by national Olympic committees. Being over simplistic... I think if you march in under one flag, that's who you're representing.
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- Aug 12, 2014
Actually, Nathan wasn't available. He and Felicia announced the end of their partnership July 16, 2014. Marissa and Mervin had announced their partnership on June 10.
I agree with VietGirl that 5 years residency in the US is apparently minimal for a successful petition for citizenship for Mervin, and that's already passed for 2022. Things could change, but that sort of change tends to come slowly. Tanith Belbin had already lived in the US for more than 5 years, and even then it took an influential Senator from Michigan to push her citizenship through by an act of Congress, just under the wire in Dec. 2005 for Torino.
I was fascinated by listening to this TSL interview of Marissa and Mervin in 2015. She said she'd already accomplished more, with Simon, than she'd expected. Another Olympics didn't seem to be a priority for her. She wanted to be a world-class pairs skater again, but even that seemed less important to her than being friends and more connected with her partner. She believed she could be that with Mervin. They didn't have that possibility till this year (if "world class" is defined as going to WC) ... and we all know what happened. I don't know, are they "world-class" pairs because they've earned spots at GP events? Would a B competition qualify?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl7mcJhS
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- Mar 23, 2014
Of course this is the case, and countries are free to make exceptions to their rules for athletes or to not, depending on whatever is most important to them.
Team OGM was a huge deal for Russia in 2014 and if Tatiana Volosozhar hadn't gained her Russian citizenship long before then, there probably would've been an exception made for her. And did the US speed up Tanith Belbin's citizenship for 2006?
Countries are free to make their own determinations based on their priorities.
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- Feb 16, 2010
From the current Olympic charter, Rule 41 describes the requirement that an Olympic competitor must be a citizen of the country they are representing (obvious exceptions being refugees and the like)
Under "Bye-law to Rule 41": 1. A competitor who is a national of two or more countries at the same time may represent either one of them, as he may elect. However, after having represented one country in the Olympic Games, in continental or regional games or in world or regional championships recognised by the relevant IF, he may not represent another country unless he meets the conditions set forth in paragraph 2 below that apply to persons who have changed their nationality or acquired a new nationality
Paragraph 2 describes the policies about switching countries, including a 3 year required period between the time which a competitor last represented their old country and the time where they want to represent their new country. There's exceptions in Paragraph 3 about switching related to countries gaining independence/borders changing/etc.
In short, dual citizens must pick one country to represent in a specific sport and can't compete for two countries at the same Olympic Games.
According to the rules, their Top 10 finish earned them two spots at both Worlds and Olympics. The fact that they get to use only one for the Olympics is due only to the number of spots given to other countries. I can't find anything in ISU rules that addresses what happens if the number of Worlds-generated Olympic spots becomes 15 instead of the intended 16.
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- Feb 16, 2010
Olympic Qualification rules are different, though. They're listed separately from Worlds rules under Rule 400 of the Special Regulations and Technical Rules for this season
While it mentions that multiple entries are achieved via the same general procedures as Worlds entries, Rule 400.A.3 also includes the statement that "If the application of the above procedure results in more than twenty-four (24) Ladies or Men, sixteen (16) Pairs, or nineteen (19) Ice Dance Couples being eligible for direct entry, the last ISU Members to reach the qualifying limit would not be permitted to enter a Skater/Pair/Couple that would cause the limit to be exceeded."
So, the rules do state that they have one spot for the Olympics, even if it is a technicality rule.
Unused spots will get reallocated at Nebelhorn.
I think this language establishes that the competitors in the team event must be members of the same federation's delegation in one of the other events:
http://static.isu.org/media/309682/isu-figure-skating-en.pdf
There doesn't seem to be anything in this document itself that would contradict the remote possibility that, say, Israel does not have an entry in the ladies' event so they use the incomplete team/additional athletes provisions to add another lady who just so happens to already be at the Olympics competing in ladies' singles for Russia.
However, a skater is only eligible to represent one federation at a time in ISU competition and must be released by the previous federation and sit out for at least a season (with some exceptions for pairs/dance). The same should apply to the Olympics.
Even if we were talking about a pair or dance team, it's not as though Russia would have put them on their Olympic team and release them before the team event and then have Israel release them back immediately after the team event, or that the release process could happen that quickly anyway.
Now, what would IOC rules be if completely different sports with different rules were involved? Could the same athlete compete in, say, pair skating for Israel and ice hockey for Russia? I doubt it, but we'd have to check IOC rules.
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- Jul 26, 2003
I remember that interview. I'm sure at the time they just wanted to enjoy getting back into competitive skating and hope that they can actually be an internationally-competitive team and have opportunities to be in consideration for senior Bs, GPs, and even 4CC and Worlds. Now it seems they want more but didn't think to have the foresight to think of all the logistics.
I think Marissa at the time was still fresh from her Olympic experience and tried out with numerous guys, and Mervin seemed to be the best fit for her with the real world considerations not withstanding. She came out of a successful but uneasy if not volatile partnership with Simon and I think at the time her priority was to find a partner she could really get along with in order for her to have a more healthy skating life. Mervin seemed to be missing in action internationally since his split with Narumi and his other partnerships didn't pan out. He probably thought he was at the end of his skating career if an opportunity didn't present itself soon. Then came Marissa.
They were probably just treading the waters hoping to become good enough to become as good as they were with their successful prior partnerships since there was nothing indicating they'd have another chance to compete at that level again. And now, despite 3 seasons of inconsistent performances, they tasted being close to making World teams and having real world-class goals they are seeking and expectations placed on them. So now, it's obvious they have to consider the real world implications of deciding to compete for the U.S. AND training/living in Canada and with Mervin waiting on his hands to get permanent U.S. residency (which he can't get as of right now).
This is the key sentence: "If the application of the above procedure results in more than ... sixteen (16) Pairs .. being eligible for direct entry, the last ISU Members to reach the qualifying limit would not be permitted to enter a Skater/Pair/Couple that would cause the limit to be exceeded."
Now, if all countries sent pairs for the 16 spots, the 17th pair (USA) would cause the limit to be exceeded, and would not be permitted to enter.
HOWEVER, if one of the 16 spots is not entered (perhaps due to France having a citizenship issue), the qualifying limit would not have been reached, let alone exceeded. This rule does not address that scenario.
ETA: Obviously, at this point there is no reason why the U.S. could/should challenge in any way. But I would think USFS lawyers are fully ready to challenge down the line, IF it turns out that there are 15 or fewer eligible pairs from among the 16 spots allocated at Worlds.
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- Joined
- Aug 12, 2014
Radically, as in an act of Congress.
I remember the qualifying line being on grounds of "exceptional talent." At least that was the idea, perhaps not verbatim.Someone said Tanith's citizenship was delayed because things got more difficult in the years after 9/11. I'm not at all sure that things have gotten easier since then.
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- Aug 12, 2014
I haven't listened to the recent Ice Talk interview where they apparently (?) talked about the Olympics still not being the end-all for skaters, or for them in particular. It did seem that Marissa ended the Shnapir partnership and entered into the Tran partnership for the right reasons ... for the experience of skating and a compatible connection, and for the love of pairs skating. But it has certainly ended with things in a pickle at this point. Like you said, real world consequences.
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- Jan 28, 2013
I remember Tanith's case. I was against it.
Not because I dislike her or her partnership with Ben.
I simply thought she should follow the same process as anyone else seeking American citizenship, with no favor granted.
I think, but I'm not sure, a similar thing was done for a cross-country skier or biathlon competitor... or something like that.
But that was the issue: Tanith indeed had followed "the same process as anyone else" and was on track for citizenship well before the deadline, but got caught in a post-9/11 logjam of delays and new regulations. Even with the "special" action by Congress, it still took longer for her than for most others of that era.
I'm sure they don't either. But it's a real obstacle for the Japanese Figure Skating Federation. If you were the Japanese Fed, how would you deal with this obstacle? Obviously, they would like to do well in the team event. They host WTT. And the rules are geared to help them compete. Not only at WTT, but a special award was also handed out to Team Asia last year during the International Team Challenge. After the short programs, in which the pairs & dance teams were specifically excluded from competing. (I don't exactly see these formats as being healthy for skating as a whole; though at this point, sponsorship is obviously king when it comes to team competitions).
So say you are the Japanese Fed, how do you actually build a pairs & dance program within the country? Here Japan has this HUGE figure skating fan base; but as far as we can tell, has there been any forward momentum for pairs & dance? I actually feel like there might be more promise for the future of Korean & Chinese dance. (Though China has been sending its top dance teams abroad for decades, without major improvement. I feel like they must be sending them out to late. China has it's own issues with political isolation). China and Korea still don't have dance coaches, but at least they have ice.
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I believe U.S. law had actually already changed to speed up citizenship for athletes, etc. However, Tanith & Ben had applied prior to that change. Initially, people who had applied prior to the change were left high & draw, outside the sped up loop. And that is why the senator spoke up on Ben & Tanith's behalf. It's also important to recognize that Ben & Tanith had to prove they could do something no other American dance team could do. It wouldn't have necessarily been enough to make the team. By medaling at Worlds the year before, they proved they could medal internationally in ice dance. Something that had not been done by a U.S. dance team at an Olympic Games since 1976.
Meanwhile, there have always been U.S. citizenship loopholes. Athletes who married Americans or came directly from Cuba could claim citizenship much faster.
Meanwhile, there have always been U.S. citizenship loopholes. Athletes who married Americans or came directly from Cuba could claim citizenship much faster.
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- Feb 27, 2012
If you are talking about Team Challenge Cup, there was no "special award" for Team Asia, AFAIK.
According to the pre-announced TCC rules, singles skaters competed their SPs on Day 1 of the event -- with separate prize money at stake for the teams who placed first, second and third on Day 1 (completely separate from the prize money for Day 2).
Team Asia won Day 1 of TCC -- by a margin of only two placement points over Team North America.
Team Asia thus received the prize money for first place on Day 1. It was not a "special award."
Of the six singles skaters for Team Asia, three were Japanese.
I like Shoma, Satoko, and Rika, but you are overselling their contributions to Team Asia's Day 1 results.
Boyang and Denis both were winners of their respective SP flights.
Elizabet placed second (out of three ladies) in hers.
Shoma won his SP flight. (And won additional individual prize money for having the highest score among all men in all flights.)
Evgenia and Satoko were in the same SP flight (per the "blind" choices of the team captains), and Satoko placed second.
Rika placed third in hers.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2016/23073/results.html
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...ge-Cup-Day-1&p=1417623&viewfull=1#post1417623
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"Special" in that it is the only time in recent history that an award has been given out for a team event featuring only half of the team.
Yes, Team Asia won it fair and square. I was there, and it was, IMO, the best day of the event. Denis, Shoma, & Boyang were frigging outstanding. But the fact that the pairs & dancers were excluded from Day 1 was pretty clearly in order to keep the playing field more level for team Asia. (Who wouldn't have needed it nearly so much if Chinese pairs had not been in turmoil and if the same country was allowed to send more than one team. I'm glad they weren't, however. It was great to see Elizabet represent Kazakhstan).
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- Feb 27, 2012
In any case, nothing was "handed out" to Team Asia at TCC -- so I disagree with that part of your wording as well.
The various amounts of Day 1 prize money were earmarked for whichever teams finished in first, second, and third places.
It was not a sure thing that Team Asia would win.
It is not unthinkable that on a different day, Adam's SP might have beaten Denis', or Gracie's might have beaten Satoko's, or Elena's might have beaten Eizabet's.
Team Asia happened to win -- again, by only two points -- on Day 1, and thus members of Team Asia earned the first-place prize money for Day 1. It was not "handed out" to them.
And I disagree with the way that you're spinning things abut TCC in general.
For one thing, TCC's format was announced months before Kose became the sponsor.
But I'm done with this conversation.
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No, it wasn't. This is part of the reason that Day 1 was the best part of the competition. It was the most unpredictable part.
But it was a sure thing that Team Asia would not have won Day 1 if it had involved the pairs & dance teams they had to send. I would like to see pairs & dancers treated as equal participants in all team events. I would like to see China, Japan, and Korea build competitive dance programs. And to see Japan & Korea build competitive pairs programs. And, finally, I would like to see pairs and dance recognized internationally as equally significant disciplines within the sport.
For me, this isn't about the format of one team competition. Rather the larger development of the sport. Japan has the largest figure skating audience in the sport. We should all want to see their dancers & pairs programs succeed. I believe most people do.
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