Pairs & Dance Teams with Citizenship Issues

[TontoK]

So say you are the Japanese Fed, how do you actually build a pairs & dance program within the country? Here Japan has this HUGE figure skating fan base; but as far as we can tell, has there been any forward momentum for pairs & dance? I actually feel like there might be more promise for the future of Korean & Chinese dance. (Though China has been sending its top dance teams abroad for decades, without major improvement. I feel like they must be sending them out to late. China has it's own issues with political isolation). China and Korea still don't have dance coaches, but at least they have ice.

While I grant American pairs aren't in good shape, it's worth remembering that US Dance was almost an international afterthought.

That discipline was built from nothing. I suggest the Japanese follow the American model. Get Russian coaches to move there and take over the program.

Come to think of it, Irina Rodnina was coaching a US pairs team some years ago. The Steiglers, I think. The were very young, but already had the Russian flair. I don't follow these things too closely, but I think the sister outgrew the boy. So long ago...

I wish we'd get a few Russian pairs coaches. Would do us a world of good.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

For what it's worth, I tend to agree with you. Maybe I might understand if I were an athlete, but as I sit here, it would be extremely difficult for me to stand under another country's flag and be all proud listening to another country's anthem in the name of my win all in the name of sport. It seems that this happens more and more now.

It is not often that athletes from my country are able to compete under their own flag. A few governing bodies recognise us and so we can represent ourselves, such as in football or netball. But for other sports, the only time we can compete as ourselves is at the Commonwealth Games. And unfortunately there is no Winter version of those. :disapp:

So, for athletes from here, it isn't a big deal standing under a flag that doesn't have a Red Hand on it (Northern Ireland; Ulster). It is something that they are used to. The problem is that the media and the politicians make a big deal of which flag they do choose to stand under.

Hey, look at Rory McIlroy. When it was announced that golf was returning to the Olympics, he agonised for years over which flag to compete under, because he knew the fuss that would be kicked up whenever he had to declare. In the end, he opted for Ireland and there was so much fuss that he decided that it wasn't worth it, and pulled out (Zika was just the final straw that broke the camel's back).

Personally, I don't care which flag they stand under, just so long as they get the opportunity to compete.

And I should add that I am not somebody who blindly supports athletes from their own country at the expense of athletes from other countries. If I like somebody, I will support them. If I don't like somebody, I won't support them. Simple as that. :agree:

The easier solution to this seems to be to get the IOC to change it rules regarding citizenship changed (they are outdated, and represent a different era of sport) and allow the sports federations to determine who is eligible to compete for which country. If an athlete can compete on a regular basis in international competition for a country, citizen or not, they should be able to compete at the Olympics.

Totally agree that the IOC rules are outdated. But, I would go further and get rid of the competing for your country thing completely.

Your nationality should just be a way of describing where you are from. Nothing more, nothing less.

Or you have two now. I was involved with a Syrian family who came to Canada as refugees. They don't stop loving Syria or feeling attached to it, but they've come to love Canada too. Different situation obviously, but my point is you can love two countries at once in my opinion.

Agree. Due to the complicated political situation here, I have dual nationality (UK and Ireland). And I love both countries. There are also things I don't like about both countries, but you get my drift.

Most athletes are getting dual citizenship, save for those from countries that don't allow it like Kavaguti who had to give up Japanese citizenship.

People feel a variety of ways about citizenship and what that means to them.

I think this is a super important point. It's different for different people.

Exactly! :agree:

Notably, as far as American citizenship goes, " United States requires applicants for naturalization to swear to an oath renouncing all prior "allegiance and fidelity" to any other nation or sovereignty as part of the naturalization ceremony."

Personally, I think it's kind of a silly oath, considering the US is fine with dual citizenship. Like chameleon says, it's not actually true. You aren't really renouncing anything. If I were ever to get US citizenship, I'd think it was stupid and I probably wouldn't really want to say it, but it wouldn't really matter because I wouldn't be doing it. That line anyways would just be words, since I would still be a dual citizen. I would be gaining a country, not losing one. And TontoK, on the question you asked 4everchan in a later post, I'm proud to be Canadian, and I wouldn't ever actually "renounce my allegiance and fidelity" to Canada. But no matter what the oath says, I just don't view getting dual citizenship as doing that.

"Working abroad for a few years" is not the same as "renouncing your allegiance and fidelity" to your homeland (US Naturalization oath).

Canadians (and all others) who obtain American citizenship must swear this oath.

For me, that would be a VERY big deal. In fact, it would be a deal-breaker.

It would be for me too. I know it's only a formality, and like moriel says for Brazil and chameleon for America, you don't have to mean it. But it's the principle of the thing.

So, if I was to take on the citizenship of a third country, I wouldn't go for one that had an oath of allegiance. And I certainly wouldn't go for one that had military service, as I am against people fighting and believe all people should just get along.

well... maybe it's a generation or cultural thing

It's definitely a generational thing here. The older generation feel patriotic about being British or Irish (depending on their political leanings). But for the younger generation, we don't even think of ourselves as being British or Irish. We only think of ourselves as being Northern Irish.

Incidentally, that is why young people here don't vote. Because NONE of the politicians here share that way of thinking. All the politicians are too busy fighting with each other along tribal lines to realise that things have changed. :disapp:

And it is because of the tribal politics and the "Themmuns and Ussins" mentality that exists amongst the politicians here that has really put me off the idea of competing for a specific country in sport.

Much better to just forget about everything else and compete for yourself! :agree:

CaroLiza_fan

 

[andromache]

No, it wasn't. This is part of the reason that Day 1 was the best part of the competition. It was the most unpredictable part.

But it was a sure thing that Team Asia would not have won Day 1 if it had involved the pairs & dance teams they had to send. I would like to see pairs & dancers treated as equal participants in all team events. I would like to see China, Japan, and Korea build competitive dance programs. And to see Japan & Korea build competitive pairs programs. And, finally, I would like to see pairs and dance recognized internationally as equally significant disciplines within the sport.

For me, this isn't about the format of one team competition. Rather the larger development of the sport. Japan has the largest figure skating audience in the sport. We should all want to see their dancers & pairs programs succeed. I believe most people do.

WTT is another event that totally shortchanges pairs and dance. Countries are free to focus on developing their disciplines however they want - but in international events, yes, even fluff ones - the disciplines should be worth the same. There's no good reason for the singles disciplines to be worth twice as much as pairs and dance for WTT - other than to help out Japan. Which, fine, they are the ones pouring money into the sport.

Re: discussion above about nationality not mattering and just let people compete - but it's the Olympics!! If we get rid of paying attention to nationalities in the Olympics, it totally defeats the point of the Olympics in the first place.

 

[moriel]

WTT is another event that totally shortchanges pairs and dance. Countries are free to focus on developing their disciplines however they want - but in international events, yes, even fluff ones - the disciplines should be worth the same. There's no good reason for the singles disciplines to be worth twice as much as pairs and dance for WTT - other than to help out Japan. Which, fine, they are the ones pouring money into the sport.

Re: discussion above about nationality not mattering and just let people compete - but it's the Olympics!! If we get rid of paying attention to nationalities in the Olympics, it totally defeats the point of the Olympics in the first place.

Well, i suppose whoever pays for the party makes up the rules.

 

[TontoK]

WTT is another event that totally shortchanges pairs and dance. Countries are free to focus on developing their disciplines however they want - but in international events, yes, even fluff ones - the disciplines should be worth the same. There's no good reason for the singles disciplines to be worth twice as much as pairs and dance for WTT - other than to help out Japan. Which, fine, they are the ones pouring money into the sport.

Re: discussion above about nationality not mattering and just let people compete - but it's the Olympics!! If we get rid of paying attention to nationalities in the Olympics, it totally defeats the point of the Olympics in the first place.

In the case of WTT, I've wondered if finances play a role. Two singles skaters and one pair team both have two athletes to be housed, fed, and paid.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

WTT is another event that totally shortchanges pairs and dance. Countries are free to focus on developing their disciplines however they want - but in international events, yes, even fluff ones - the disciplines should be worth the same. There's no good reason for the singles disciplines to be worth twice as much as pairs and dance for WTT - other than to help out Japan. Which, fine, they are the ones pouring money into the sport.

Totally agree that the Pairs and Dance should have equal footing to the Singles in not just the WTT, but in general.

Like, at Worlds, we only had the Top 16 going through to the FS in Pairs, and the Top 20 going through in Dance. Yet both Singles categories had the Top 24 going through to the FS! So I can't see why it shouldn't be the same for Pairs and Dance.

Yes, I understand that in all categories, it was the bottom 12 that was knocked out. But, since Pairs and Dance had fewer slots available, it meant some pretty good partnerships missed out on progressing.

So, it is about time that the number of slots available to each category was equalised to 36, so that we can have the Top 24 going through to the FS in all categories.

As for the WTT, I could understand that format being used when Japan only had one Pairs partnership competing (i.e. Takahashi / Tran). But they now have a few decent Pairs partnerships. So, there is no need to restrict Pairs to one entry any more.

And as for Dance, Japan always had a couple of good partnerships. So, I never understood why that category was restricted to one entry as well.

Time to even things up!

Re: discussion above about nationality not mattering and just let people compete - but it's the Olympics!! If we get rid of paying attention to nationalities in the Olympics, it totally defeats the point of the Olympics in the first place.

I can understand that. But, it can be done in a way that isn't so in your face. Still have the country medal count, but have the emphasis more on the achievement of the athletes themselves.

The way the BBC goes on about how many gold medals Team GB has or has not won compared to other countries or compared to previous editions is unbearable. Apart from anything else, can you imagine the extra pressure it puts on the athletes knowing that their media is going on like this?! That's just not fair!

This may just be the BBC, but I don't think so. I expect it is the same in most countries.

So, bring it back to having the athletes getting the recognition for their achievements.

But, the most important thing is that we need the Olympics to use the same rules as the individual governing bodies use for their own championships. And then we will not need to continuously have this discussion about who isn't eligible because they don't have citizenship of the country they are representing.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

In the case of WTT, I've wondered if finances play a role. Two singles skaters and one pair team both have two athletes to be housed, fed, and paid.

Never thought of that. You could have a point.

Having two entries per category would mean four extra skaters to house and feed. And that is before you even think about coaches and family members as well.

Yeah, it could be an attempt to keep costs down.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[gkelly]

The main reasons why ISU championships and Olympics have fewer slots for pairs and dance is that for safety reasons they allow fewer entries per warmup group and they want to keep the same number of warmup groups to avoid an extra resurfacing.

Also, proportionally, there just are many more singles skaters than pairs/dance teams in the world, so there are already a lot more good singles skaters getting left home.

However, if the ISU wants to encourage more federations to develop pair and dance programs, offering more opportunities to compete would be encouraging. They don't have much input into the IOC citizenship rules though.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

The main reasons why ISU championships and Olympics have fewer slots for pairs and dance is that for safety reasons they allow fewer entries per warmup group and they want to keep the same number of warmup groups to avoid an extra resurfacing.

Oh, no. We certainly don't want to have more skaters on the ice during Warm-Up's. I'm concerned enough when we have 6 Singles skaters on the ice. So, I wouldn't want any more than 4 partnerships (i.e. 8 skaters) on the ice at any one time.

But, I can't see what would be wrong with having more than one resurfacing. Yes, it would make the total running time of each segment longer, but it would be worth it for the entertainment value.

Also, proportionally, there just are many more singles skaters than pairs/dance teams in the world, so there are already a lot more good singles skaters getting left home.

True. But if there were more opportunities for Pairs and Dance, then there would be more skaters taking them up.

However, if the ISU wants to encourage more federations to develop pair and dance programs, offering more opportunities to compete would be encouraging.

Exactly. Especially with Pairs, as the number of partnerships competing at each event are getting particularly low. And Feds are not going to bother investing the money if the chances of the partnerships getting to compete in the Majors is low.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[chameleon]

While I grant American pairs aren't in good shape, it's worth remembering that US Dance was almost an international afterthought.

That discipline was built from nothing. I suggest the Japanese follow the American model. Get Russian coaches to move there and take over the program.

Come to think of it, Irina Rodnina was coaching a US pairs team some years ago. The Steiglers, I think. The were very young, but already had the Russian flair. I don't follow these things too closely, but I think the sister outgrew the boy. So long ago...

I wish we'd get a few Russian pairs coaches. Would do us a world of good.

It's not just the lack of coaching, its the lack of space in the rinks in general. The rinks in Japan are very overcrowded. Satoko learned to jump clockwise as a young girl who lived in America, and I believe got up to 2A, but was forced to relearn how to jump the same as everyone else. Because its so crowded, its dangerous to have someone else going the opposite way. In the same way, its a safety issue to have teams training in the rinks, especially pairs. There's just no room, so anyone that shows interest is basically forced to go overseas. Which also limits growing the sport for a different reason, because parents probably don't want their kids leaving the country at a very young age, whereas in Canada or Russia or America, sometimes lifelong partnerships are formed before the skaters have even hit double digits.

 

[gkelly]

Exactly. Especially with Pairs, as the number of partnerships competing at each event are getting particularly low. And Feds are not going to bother investing the money if the chances of the partnerships getting to compete in the Majors is low.

There seem to have been a record number of pairs at Worlds this year: 28
1997 may have been the next most with 25
1989 was a low point with only 11 (equal to 1947, the first post-WWII Worlds)

Pre-WWII pairs fields were generally smaller; there just weren't as many skating countries at the time.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

There seem to have been a record number of pairs at Worlds this year: 28
1997 may have been the next most with 25
1989 was a low point with only 11 (equal to 1947, the first post-WWII Worlds)

Pre-WWII pairs fields were generally smaller; there just weren't as many skating countries at the time.

Sorry. I should have made clear that was talking in general for that paragraph, not specifically about Worlds.

The small entries in Pairs are very noticable at Senior B's and a lot of National Championships.

The figures you mentioned are interesting. And encouraging.

I hope the ISU take it as a sign that they can open things up further and let more teams in.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[andromache]

Exactly. Especially with Pairs, as the number of partnerships competing at each event are getting particularly low. And Feds are not going to bother investing the money if the chances of the partnerships getting to compete in the Majors is low.

CaroLiza_fan

The dwindling number of pairs has nothing to do with issues of partnerships and citizenships, otherwise we would see the same trend in ice dance, which isn't happening.

 

[NanaPat]

I believe it was this thread where someone asked the question: what would Japan have to do to develop pairs and ice dance. I thought of replying: import coaches (or get retired skaters to coach), and a limited number of partners if necessary. They may still want to send the best teams abroad for training at least for part of the year, but they need coaches in Japan to nurture lower-level skaters.

And now, from a recent post, it looks like they need to build some more rinks as well!

I must say that I have really been enjoying the Chinese ice dancers, both at 4CC and at Worlds. They may not be top-rate, but they sure are entertaining! I'd rather watch them than many of the better couples. So bravo to China for putting some effort into developing ice dance

 

[La Rhumba]

Yeah, Denmark could use them to promote figure skating and by extention Winter sports. Has a Danish skater ever been a top skater ? Because it has to start somewhere. (Look in Korea what Yuna has done...)

Since I've been following the Sport, there has been some quality Singles skaters from Denmark.

Lars Dresler, coached by British Coach Lorna Brown, and who I've just discovered died at 27.

Lars Gandrup Dresler (born 2 January 1968 — 7 November 1995)[1] was a Danish figure skater. He was the 1990 Nordic champion and a five-time Danish national (1984–88). Dresler served as Denmark's flag bearer at the 1988 Winter Olympics in Calgary.[2] He finished 14th overall after placing 14th in the compulsory figures, 12th in the short program, and 15th in the free skate.[1] He trained at Gladsaxe Skøjteløber Forening.[3] He was coached by Lorna Brown.[4]
Wikipedia

Henrik Walentin

Henrik Walentin (born 22 August 1967) is a Danish former competitive figure skater. He is the 1991 Karl Schäfer Memorial bronze medalist, a five-time Nordic champion, and a three-time Danish national champion. Walentin placed tenth at the 1992 European Championships in Lausanne and was selected to represent Denmark at the 1992 Winter Olympics in Albertville, where he finished 22nd.[1][2]
Wikipedia

And the most talented, Michael Tyllesen, a tall, elegant, artistic, musical skater, who was 6th at 1993 Europeans.

Michael Johannes Malmin Tyllesen (born 27 August 1973)[1] is a Danish former competitive figure skater. He is the 1997 Skate Canada International bronze medalist, a two-time Piruetten champion, and a two-time Nordic champion.
Wikipedia

A beautiful Ladies skater was Mikkeline Kierkegaard, 7th at Europeans 2000, who had a short-lived career for one so talented. Last I saw her she was a Pro skater partnering a celeb on the German version of Dancing on Ice, and she briefly skated Pairs for Germany with Norman Jeschke.

 

[Ice Dance]

I believe it was this thread where someone asked the question: what would Japan have to do to develop pairs and ice dance. I thought of replying: import coaches (or get retired skaters to coach), and a limited number of partners if necessary. They may still want to send the best teams abroad for training at least for part of the year, but they need coaches in Japan to nurture lower-level skaters.

And now, from a recent post, it looks like they need to build some more rinks as well!

Yes, I asked. Both of your suggestions seem correct, but how would you encourage those coaches to come when citizenship restrictions are so tight? In the past, which coaches has Japan imported? I'm really asking. I am not that familiar with the history of Japanese coaching. What impact did imported coaches have on the development of singles in Japan?

One thing I do appreciate about the Japanese Federation is that they send their athletes out to gain a variety of expertise. I assume in the hope that they will bring that expertise back to Japan. But there are so few dancers and pairs. If you wait until young athletes are teenagers in order to send them out (which would seem appropriate for sending an athlete oversees), then how will they develop the basics they need to compete with athletes who have been training in countries where the training is available? If you don't really expect them to, then you are waiting at least a generation for change. It seems like a very long term process, especially if you are counting on ethnic Japanese athletes born in other countries--athletes who may wish to stay and work in the more thriving skating communities in which they were raised.

One country that I see as having a very promising future in ice dance is Italy. They seem to have sent out their coaches to train. I would not be surprised at all if 8 years from now Italy rivals Michigan & Montreal as a center for ice dance. Of course, Italy has had high-level success already with its competitors in dance. (Which included both importing coaches & exporting athletes). But still, sending coaches out seems like a valuable idea for countries with strict immigration laws.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I was just watching the BBC's coverage of the Free Dance from Worlds, and when Olivia Smart and Adrià Díaz were on, they started discussing the citizenship thing.

Robin Cousins explained that for normal events, one person from the partnership had to be a passport holder, whereas for the Olympics, both have to be. So Kat Downes asked whether Olivia would be able to get a Spanish passport in time. Robin admitted that he doesn't know if Spain has any requirements that you have to be resident in the country for a certain amount of time, or whether they would be willing to give her one regardless so that she could represent them in the Olympics.

But, then he added that in the UK, the requirement is that you have to be resident for 5 years before you can get a passport. And that in Pairs, Chris Boyadji will fall short of that requirement by 4 months.

:gaah:

So, unless there can be some strings pulled, it looks like Zoe Jones is going to miss out on the Olympics again!!!

First time because she was shafted by the previous regime at her own Fed, and now because of red tape with her partner.

:disapp:

Of course, Robin might have got things wrong. But, he does seem to be in the know about most things that are going on behind the scenes. Not just with the British team, but with many other teams. Like, he did admit to us that he was one of the first people to know about Valentina Marchei and Ondřej Hotárek forming a partnership (because Vale phoned him asking for advice).

Oh, I really hope he has got his wires crossed in this case!

CaroLiza_fan

 

[tennisguy]

But, then he added that in the UK, the requirement is that you have to be resident for 5 years before you can get a passport. And that in Pairs, Chris Boyadji will fall short of that requirement by 4 months.

:gaah:

So, unless there can be some strings pulled, it looks like Zoe Jones is going to miss out on the Olympics again!!!

First time because she was shafted by the previous regime at her own Fed, and now because of red tape with her partner.

:disapp:

Of course, Robin might have got things wrong. But, he does seem to be in the know about most things that are going on behind the scenes. Not just with the British team, but with many other teams. Like, he did admit to us that he was one of the first people to know about Valentina Marchei and Ondřej Hotárek forming a partnership (because Vale phoned him asking for advice).

Oh, I really hope he has got his wires crossed in this case!

CaroLiza_fan

What is the likelihood that Jones/Boyadj would qualify at Nebelhorn? They were 26th at the World Championships and there's only 4 spots left in the pairs event. I don't think citizenship is going to prevent them from going to the Olympics, I don't think they'll qualify.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

What is the likelihood that Jones/Boyadj would qualify at Nebelhorn? They were 26th at the World Championships and there's only 4 spots left in the pairs event. I don't think citizenship is going to prevent them from going to the Olympics, I don't think they'll qualify.

I wouldn't be so sure that they wouldn't be able to qualify. Remember that this season was not just their first season together, but Zoe's first season doing Pairs. And she has been doing very well for somebody who is completely new to that type of skating.

Plus, Zoe has a good record from Singles in Oberstdorf. So, that could give her an added psychological boost.

Chris, meanwhile, is very experienced in Pairs. And that will doubtlessly be a huge help in their preparations.

So, I would not put it past them to improve enough during the off-season to qualify.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[sarama]

I do think Zoe/Chris have a chance at Nebelhorn. Of course that means nothing if he doesn't have citizenship