Hi everyone, great to see a thread dedicated to pairs from all federations! I'm relatively new to figure skating and so far have only really watched much ladies singles, but I'm really interested in pairs and want to follow them more, so threads like this are a big help.
If anyone has suggestions of "much-watch-pairs-programs" for a newbie like me, please let me know!
Hi everyone, great to see a thread dedicated to pairs from all federations! I'm relatively new to figure skating and so far have only really watched much ladies singles, but I'm really interested in pairs and want to follow them more, so threads like this are a big help.
If anyone has suggestions of "much-watch-pairs-programs" for a newbie like me, please let me know!
James/Cipres - Europeans 2017 - FS: The Sound of Silence 🖤 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAfh0zV2s0Q&t=1s Volosozhar/Trankov - Worlds 2012 - FS: Black Swan 🖤 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RZLan_dp80&t
www.goldenskate.com
(The thread is from Nov-Dec 2020, and is still in The Edge. It would be possible to bump it up, if you are so inclined.
In any case, I think it would be a good resource for you.)
Somehow I don't understand the question, "outside of Japan and the US"? Japan cernainly isn't a great power in pairs and definitely doesn't have three pairs at worlds. They are glad for one. Only Russia and China have three, the US have two.
Yes, this question was placed in the wrong thread. I wasn't able to delete it for some reason so, I just copied and placed it where it belongs, In the Mens Thead........
Hi everyone, great to see a thread dedicated to pairs from all federations! I'm relatively new to figure skating and so far have only really watched much ladies singles, but I'm really interested in pairs and want to follow them more, so threads like this are a big help.
If anyone has suggestions of "much-watch-pairs-programs" for a newbie like me, please let me know!
I like @ice coverage's suggestion of a thread to peruse. If I were new to pairs, so many choices might be a bit overwhelming for me, so I'll start you with just a few of my beloveds.
Here are just a few of my personal favorites from the past 3 years.
Pairs competing currently, in random order. These pairs aren't necessarily world medalists or necessarily the current top pair from their country, but for me, each performance has a bit of magic in it.
I agree with much of this. I had no intention of slighting Tamara Moskvina's contributions to her (to her, new) pair of Mishina/Galliamov. I just wasn't thinking of talking about every little thing that I think she does contribute to every one of her pairs. And, I still think that a huge amount of credit goes to Anastasia and Sasha; they've taken every nuance and every flourish and made it their own. The refinements they've made are very impressive. I think one of the things about them I love the most is that everything they do seems genuine and from the heart. Even when they're acting out a story, they do it "full out." They're fully committed to each mood and each phrase of music. And they have technique that is exquisite and adds to the beauty of their skating.
The main points that I would add, to my post above, are that 1. Moskvina really looks at her skaters and sees ways to highlight and improve upon what she sees. From reading her interviews, I feel that her advanced education in art and her constant and continuing attention to art keep her eyes and mind open to the possibilities. I love how she talks about always looking for ways to make beautiful shapes with her pairs' movements. 2. In a quite recent interview, Moskvina was asked if she yells at her students; the answer was no. She said once she called a girl a fool, but then apologized. I think that she emphasizes the positive in every way, and this alone gives her students a huge boost in confidence. 3. She has a calm demeanor, and 4. She corrects a mistake or makes a change in a movement very early in the process.
I can't remember where I heard the following, but someone (maybe TSL, a few years back? -- yes, I believe it was) asked her about that comment she made in 1994 about hypnotizing Mishkutenok and Dmitriev. She replied with a twinkle that she was more or less pulling the leg of the interviewer, or at least that she was exaggerating with a wink. Still, I for one am a believer in what a coach, a parent, or a friend who believes in you, can impart with a deep look into the eyes. So hypnotizing isn't far off. Anyway, all hypnosis is self-hypnosis, or so I've heard.
That interview must have been the two-part one TSL did in 2015, and it's too long for me to look up the remark right now. I was very impressed throughout the interview with how the great Tamara turned every single question right around that had even a hint of a negative slant. My impression was that it's a habit with her to automatically convert every question or statement to a positive. The fact that she was doing it in English was even more impressive.
We all have our favorites and it's valid how we each see things slightly differently. Our varying perceptions and affinities are what they are, for whatever reason. Suffice to say, we both love pairs skating. That doesn't mean we are going to equally enjoy or see the same things in certain teams.
Regarding Moskvina's old interviews, of course I realize that she was teasing when she spoke about hypnotizing Mishkuitenok/ Dmitriev. Moskvina has a definite sense of humor and a twinkle in her eye, always. Tracy Wilson was playing right along with Moskvina. They were both serious, but with an underlying wink at the same time. Moskvina is not going to publicly 'give away' all of her coaching secrets. LOL
Truthfully, indeed, Moskvina instills confidence and belief in her skaters, whether or not what she does involves actual hypnotizing! Moskvina is simply a treasure, with a remarkable legacy. She's irreplaceable and one-of-a-kind. I am quite sure that Mishina/Galliamov are over-the-moon to be training under Moskvina's expert guidance. As I said before, Moskvina only works with skaters that she feels strongly about. And she has a great ability to pull out hidden talents and to camouflage weaknesses.
I don't feel as strongly as you do about Mishina/Galliamov. I thought they were obviously very talented when I first saw them, but I wasn't blown away by their potential. I wasn't even sure how far they would progress when I first saw them. They did not express a connection, even though it might have been there under the surface. And even now, that is still an aspect of their skating that they are working on. Off-the-ice, in conversation, their personalities and their connection are more evident. One of the things about having favorites is that we don't always have the opportunity to get to know skaters well from other countries, unless we specifically search the Internet for video interviews and articles. It is certainly helpful in becoming more enamored of international skaters once we get to know their personalities up-close.
I think that Moskvina is majorly responsible for M/G's current transformation. Of course, M/G are the ones who have to execute. But they are showing so much energy, confidence and self-belief now, which they did not demonstrate in competition before. What we are seeing from M/G this season is because of Moskvina, and also because of M/G's desire to improve and their joy in skating.
Now, with the programs they have this season and the improvement we see in their skating, including their improved projecting to the audience, they definitely seem to have limitless potential. Previously, I didn't see them having the full monty, so to speak. I just thought here's another technically proficient young Russian team who lack personality and connection. Sure they do have these attributes, but they weren't expressing such qualities effectively on the ice, in my view. Moskvina has made an invaluable difference for them. But they still have a way to go and more to prove. This is one season, and so we'll see if they maintain consistency and excitement, particularly in their music and choreography, which are always important factors in building momentum and success.
Boikova/Koslovskii, on the other hand, possess more natural charisma and connection, but they are not as classically aesthetic a Russian pair. When I saw that M/G are now working with Moskvina, I immediately wondered how B/K were taking it, because M/G clearly have improved tremendously, which makes them strong competitors vs B/K and T/M. Still, both B/K and M/G are young teams who need more experience under their belts, despite the immediate cache they always get from international judges simply for being Russian pairs teams with underlying excellent technique. These two young teams aren't always consistent technically, particularly as young skaters, but their technique is generally sound and impressive.
Below are M/G's recent programs. They look more controlled and clean than they did at some of their competitions this season, likely due to Galliamov needing to recover from his illness. Mishina may have natural charm, but she wasn't projecting quite like this previously. Her facial expressions can be a bit exaggerated, but much like ice dance, making OTT expressions can help reach the audience who tend to be far away from the ice:
Boikova/Koslovskii, on the other hand, possess more natural charisma and connection, but they are not as classically aesthetic a Russian pair. When I saw that M/G are now working with Moskvina, I immediately wondered how B/K were taking it, because M/G clearly have improved tremendously, which makes them strong competitors vs B/K and T/M. Still, both B/K and M/G are young teams who need more experience under their belts, despite the immediate cache they always get from international judges simply for being Russian pairs teams with underlying excellent technique. These two young teams aren't always consistent technically, particularly as young skaters, but their technique is generally sound and impressive.
Could you please give more details when stating that B/K are not as "classically aesthetic" as M/G? Do you feel that they are not well matched as a pair, or is it about their movements? IMO, it's the other way round. As younger juniors, B/K had some issues with their posture, but now they are beautifully polished in arms, posture, with fantastic long exits, which makes their lines elegant and characteristic of St. Petersburg pair skating school. M/G are a bit different in this aspect, more universal in their style. Both teams are too young to predict their future, but if they develop along the same lines, B/K could become a more technically proficient version of Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze. Their psychotype, though, makes me a bit concerned. It seems that they are perfectionists, and thrive mostly when they get assurance of being the best. It shows not only in skating, but also in studying and everyday life. BTW, I met them once on a flight from Moscow to SPb. I was already sitting when I saw them entering, and heard Dima greet everyone, not just the attendants. Very polite and not usual.
Could you please give more details when stating that B/K are not as "classically aesthetic" as M/G? Do you feel that they are not well matched as a pair, or is it about their movements? IMO, it's the other way round. As younger juniors, B/K had some issues with their posture, but now they are beautifully polished in arms, posture, with fantastic long exits, which makes their lines elegant and characteristic of St. Petersburg pair skating school. M/G are a bit different in this aspect, more universal in their style. Both teams are too young to predict their future, but if they develop along the same lines, B/K could become a more technically proficient version of Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze. Their psychotype, though, makes me a bit concerned. It seems that they are perfectionists, and thrive mostly when they get assurance of being the best. It shows not only in skating, but also in studying and everyday life. BTW, I met them once on a flight from Moscow to SPb. I was already sitting when I saw them entering, and heard Dima greet everyone, not just the attendants. Very polite and not usual.
Yeah, it's just a perception that I've heard mentioned. I didn't automatically think that personally until I heard others mention it, and I tried to understand why that's the perception. I believe it is in reference to overall body build, as compared to some other classic Russian teams such as Bereshnaya/Sikharulidze; Volosozhar/Trankov; Tarasova Morosov;* and Mishina/Galliamov. In that respect, Pavliuchenko/ Khodykin are also not a classically aesthetic Russian pair either for similar reasons, except the latter team does hark back to Russian pairs like Gordeeva/Grinkov in terms of huge height differential. *Although T/M are spoken of all the time as being a classic pair, I don't necessarily see T/M's body builds as very classic, but they match extremely well and they have superb technique, plus their good looks and their names are partly what grabbed fans' attention in the beginning.
My comment has nothing to do with B/K not matching well. They match together very well. It's just that neither seem to be especially classic in their body structure, which once again is not a drawback to being successful, as neither did Stolbova/Klimov have classically aesthetic body builds. I believe that Aliona Savchenko/ Robin Szolkowy were instrumental in showing that a classical aesthetic in body build is not necessary in pairs to reach the top and to have an influential impact on the discipline. It was S/S who inspired Stol/Klim and Duhamel/Radford, et al.
Frankly I took to Boikova/Koslovskii more than I did to M/G last season. At least, I was enamored of B/K much more readily than M/G, simply because B/K have always shown more connection, personality and animation together, which I find engaging. None of my comments are meant disparagingly toward any of these teams. Perhaps it is as you say that B/K were seen to be less polished when they were younger, and so some fans held that perception about them. Whereas now, they have molded themselves into more elegant performers.
B/K I have found very sweet and endearing together in their interviews. I also like Koslovskii's fiery celebration he always displays after skating well. It shows his heart and desire.
Yeah, it's just a perception that I've heard mentioned. I didn't automatically think that personally until I heard others mention it, and I tried to understand why that's the perception. I believe it is in reference to overall body build, as compared to some other classic Russian teams such as Bereshnaya/Sikharulidze; Volosozhar/Trankov; Tarasova Morosov;* and Mishina/Galliamov. In that respect, Pavliuchenko/ Khodykin are also not a classically aesthetic Russian pair either for similar reasons, except the latter team does hark back to Russian pairs like Gordeeva/Grinkov in terms of huge height differential. *Although T/M are spoken of all the time as being a classic pair, I don't necessarily see T/M's body builds as very classic, but they match extremely well and they have superb technique, plus their good looks and their names are partly what grabbed fans' attention in the beginning.
My comment has nothing to do with B/K not matching well. They match together very well. It's just that neither seem to be especially classic in their body structure, which once again is not a drawback to being successful, as neither did Stolbova/Klimov have classically aesthetic body builds. I believe that Aliona Savchenko/ Robin Szolkowy were instrumental in showing that a classical aesthetic in body build is not necessary in pairs to reach the top and to have an influential impact on the discipline. It was S/S who inspired Stol/Klim and Duhamel/Radford, et al.
Frankly I took to Boikova/Koslovskii more than I did to M/G last season. At least, I was enamored of B/K much more readily than M/G, simply because B/K have always shown more connection, personality and animation together, which I find engaging. None of my comments are meant disparagingly toward any of these teams. Perhaps it is as you say that B/K were seen to be less polished when they were younger, and so some fans held that perception about them. Whereas now, they have molded themselves into more elegant performers.
B/K I have found very sweet and endearing together in their interviews. I also like Koslovskii's fiery celebration he always displays after skating well. It shows his heart and desire.
Now I see what you meant, thank you. It was the word "classic" that made me think not of body structure but of style. You meant height proportions, didn't you? Not too big a difference, not too small? Well, if you think of the beginnings, neither Belousova/Protopopov (both medium) nor Moskvina/Mishin (both short) had a significant difference. It probably started with Rodnina/Ulanov and their athleticism. Lifts and twists should (as it seems) be easier with a smaller girl. However, when I think of the tall and strong Sasha Smirnov and how he never was able to perform a really good twist with the tiny bird Yuko Kavaguti, I wonder if it helps as much. However, even with the too big difference in their heights, they looked beautiful, elegant and accomplished together. Go figure. Sui/Han, on the other hand, are close in body height, and I find them one of the most elegant pairs.
It's not specifically height differential re B/K. Koslovskii is a bit taller than Boikova, but she's not that small. The reference to varying from a classic or traditional aesthetic mainly has to do with bone structure and body build. As I said, in the case of Savchenko/Szolkowy, they were relatively smaller, compact skaters. There was a height difference between them, but not a huge one.* Plus, of course, Robin's African-German ethnicity was unique in that there are not many skaters of color who reach the highest levels (not many at the lowest levels either). S/S were just so compelling and so good together with innovative programs and creative moves, the judges could not hold them back in the scoring. Yet, still it was always very difficult for them when the Olympics rolled around. S/S were exciting to watch, and they had an undeniable influential impact on the continuing evolution of the pairs discipline.
*When Aliona paired with Bruno Massot, his greater height gave their 3-twist a lot more excitement, and a totally different aspect to their partnership vs her partnership with Robin. Neither was better than the other, just different. And I contend that it was her years of productivity and creativity with Szolkowy and Steuer that made her partnership with Massot work as well as it did. You can't separate the experience learned over an entire career trajectory.
In terms of height differential, I read that there were a few pairs in the 1950s who had greater height differential, but it was rarer among pairs teams back then. The way pairs was skated was very different too in the 1950s and early 1960s. Belousova/Protopopov revolutionized the discipline, as we know. Despite the fact that the Russian federation didn't really like them because they were seen as being too old. B/P were not fast at all, but beautifully expressive and balletic, with great unison and creativity. And as you say, of course Rodnina and her two partners also had a huge athletic-based impact on the pairs discipline. And then Babilonia/Gardner provided an important aesthetic contribution with gorgeous lines, unison, and the incorporation of new elements that were being developed in pairs during the exciting 1970s. Tai & Randy started out with a height difference that became less as Tai grew and matured. But they took her growth spurt in stride and continued to progress athletically and aesthetically.
When I saw that Moskvina was working with M/G who are direct rivals to Boikova/Koslovskii, I wondered what impact that would have on B/K. Perhaps it will be good for both teams in pushing each other. We'll see.
In an interview I linked in Russian pairs thread Moskvina revealed that B/K used to waste training time on arguing with each other and having M/G besides they work more efficiently. So far this rivalry is helping both teams. And Moskvina has a great experience of having two teams of olympic medal contenders in her group pushing each other.
After watching pair sp yesterday this question came up, when will we ever see male pair skater with divine posture and line like Anton Sikharulidze again?
^^ There may be pairs guys with that potential. But probably the best pairs guys who can exhibit good posture and line are those who have a background in dance training.
As far as pairs guys in general, there are a lot of very good and strong ones, including Trennt Michaud, Brian Johnson, Brandon Frazier, et al. I believe that Sasha Galliamov has the potential to be very elegant with line and posture. Certainly, the fact that Mishina/Galliamov won Worlds bodes well for their future, as they can only improve. The sky's the limit.
After watching pair sp yesterday this question came up, when will we ever see male pair skater with divine posture and line like Anton Sikharulidze again?
There were a lot of problems with SBS jumps, especially with the last two groups at Worlds. Is it a mental issue for them or just normal after a season of limited competitions?
Are more top pairs teams going to try 3S-eu-3S, 3T-2T-2T combos to maximise points?
There were a lot of problems with SBS jumps, especially with the last two groups at Worlds. Is it a mental issue for them or just normal after a season of limited competitions?
Are more top pairs teams going to try 3S-eu-3S, 3T-2T-2T combos to maximise points?
For most of the pairs, it was definitely a lack of competitions this season (for most being the only competition of the season). For instance, even when coming back from injury (like this season) S/H usually at least have 4cc to kind of warm up before worlds. I don't think any skaters from the last two groups probably struggled too much with finding ice time, but I know that was a tough part for many other skaters that don't come from major fs countries.
As for what plagued the Russian pairs (besides M/G who went clean of course), who were clearly the most competition ready based on the season - I'd say for T/M, they felt too much pressure being expected to win(most of the predictions I saw had them 1st, followed by B/K then S/H), and I don't know, they just seem to make several bobbles when it really matters. B/K- I'd chalk it up to the combination of lack of senior worlds experience + being in a winning position after the SP. Coming off a strong sp and without nearly as much pressure/expectations (I would imagine) as the other two Russian pairs, they rose to the occasion in the FS.
Besides international competitions, I'm very intrigued to see how pairs rankings in Russia will shake up over the next season. P/R have a dire lack of competitive sbs jumps (although I think their pairs elements are the best, no competition), but P/K are also still young and will only get better, and have a high scoring potential with sbs jumps. They currently do sbs 3F and used to do a 3t-eu-3t their last junior season, I believe. T/M are in another class amongst the Russians in terms of basic skating and polish, but they seem to crack under pressure and the fed may grow none too happy with them if this continues.
There were a lot of problems with SBS jumps, especially with the last two groups at Worlds. Is it a mental issue for them or just normal after a season of limited competitions?
Are more top pairs teams going to try 3S-eu-3S, 3T-2T-2T combos to maximise points?
Moskvina is simply a treasure, with a remarkable legacy. She's irreplaceable and one-of-a-kind. I am quite sure that Mishina/Galliamov are over-the-moon to be training under Moskvina's expert guidance. As I said before, Moskvina only works with skaters that she feels strongly about. And she has a great ability to pull out hidden talents and to camouflage weaknesses.
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