Pairs FS Worldwide: The Divine Discipline

[BlissfulSynergy]

Lol. @BlissfulSynergy maybe "watch" and "study" figure skating for another 50 years? Until then, I'll file this under Amber Glenn being just as musical as Karen Chen "in a different way".

Yeah, and maybe you could try being less aggressive and policing about everyone loving your faves just the way you do. As well, perhaps it is you who need to do more watching, studying, researching, and gaining perspective over many years, especially regarding the history of the sport. Until then, enjoy the skaters you love, but don't expect everyone else to feel the way you do, or to cower to your opinions.

Amber Glenn and Karen Chen should be discussed in a completely different thread. And there's no need for you to facetiously categorize or to file either one of them under anything.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

But to much different extents. A team like Totmianina/Marinin showed a lack of connection and artistry in both the 6.0 and CoP systems. The system, right now, rewards the people who were always less artistic and more technical oriented. People like Sui/Han who have the capability to do more, are not able to show that complete amount of musical sensitivity and expression, because they are forced to do more spin positions and death spiral rotations and other random turns on the ice. Whereas for other competitors, these technicalities that are forced into programs just masks their own lack of artistry, because it gives them "busy work" to do on the ice that everyone else has to do too.

Sui and Han were both trained as dancers from a young age in China. Trying to credit Lori Nichol with their artistry, when they already showed it long before working with her, is absurd. Between comments like this and your comments that you didn't even know they did 4Sal, your opinion is quite an ignorant one.

At this point, @Blades of Passion and @Skatesocs, maybe you should both take a step back and stop trying to convince everybody else about the skills S/H possess. Everyone is entitled to their strong opinions, and I've voiced all of the positive attributes I see in S/H. But on this type of forum, once you share your opinion, and others don't happen to agree in precise detail, it is what it is. Figure skating is a subjective sport, and I come here to share a variety of opinions in an openminded way, not to force others to agree with me. It can be interesting to learn more details about skaters' backgrounds from fans who are avid followers, but you can't force every other fan to grovel at the skate blades of your favorites.

This thread was started to share a passion for pairs figure skating, not to become embroiled in pointless and never-ending fan favorite wars. I think we all get it that you are both ride or die for Sui/Han, and good for you both. But at this point, probably even Wenjing and Cong would back away from the stranglehold of your opinion policing efforts on their behalf.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The problem is you are side-stepping the factually incorrect things you've said. It doesn't seem like you are making an effort to understand a different opinion, and don't understand Sui/Han very well to begin with.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

The problem is you are side-stepping the factually incorrect things you've said. It doesn't seem like you are making an effort to understand a different opinion, and don't understand Sui/Han very well to begin with.

You're welcome to your perceptions and opinions. But please stop trying to police my points of view about Sui/Han and their talents. I enjoy learning about their personalities and backgrounds off-ice, and I always enjoy watching them skate, particularly when they are at their best. In other respects, please stop trying to enforce your way of thinking about S/H as the only 'factually correct' set in stone ultimatum. In fact, it is obviously you who 'aren't making an effort to understand a different opinion.'

Figure skating is a subjective sport. It is factual to provide competition stats, or to provide background details, such as the fact that S/H have dance training. To state that S/H are the best ever in pairs figure skating is a subjective opinion. I'm sure many fans would agree S/H can rightly be considered 'one of the best,' but not everyone has to agree that they are 'the best ever.'

 

[skylark]

they didn't create the program. They brought to life what they were given by Moskvina, and also apparently Zhulin who had some input with the choreo,

A GS interview of M/G (eta: by Tatjana Flade) from October 9, 2020 shows Nastya, Sasha and Tamara as they "work with choreographer with Alexander Stepin." This concurs with what Nastya said after the pairs comp -- I believe it was at the press conference. She said that Stepin choreographed their program this year. Sadly, she said Stepin is deceased now, if I'm remembering all this correctly.

Mark Hanratty did mention Zhulin in connection with Mishina/Galliamov's choreography during his commentary for the free skate. Their Wiki pages also credit Zhulin for the fs, so there seems to have been some confusion.

Here's the link to that 10/9/20 interview: https://www.goldenskate.com/2020/10/mishina-and-galliamov-2/


And here's a quote of Mishina from that interview, speaking of what they've learned in their new training group.

“From my side, I think I understood more of the work of the coach,” Mishina pointed out. “I have a deeper understanding. Before, we just did what the coaches told us. Now before we do something, Tamara Nikolaevna has us to think about it and to think about all possible options to do it better.”

I love this. To me, it speaks of one of the ways Moskvina involves her skaters not just in expressing their opinions and giving their individual input, but in encouraging them to think more deeply before she instructs them. Another indication is what Mishina said about how they developed the new lift in their SP (And btw, there are a couple of great quotes from Galliamov, too!) From Nastya: “One person thought of the entry, while we worked out the middle part with an acrobat who suggested… I don’t even remember,” she said, laughing. Then Tamara decided what was the best option.

This goes right along with what Elena Bechke said about the process of making decisions with Tamara for her and Denis. And she gives an example of a time they felt strongly, Tamara fought them, and she gave them an option of hiring another choreographer, which they decided to do. Moskvina admitted ultimately that they were right about skating to that music. Another trait of a great teacher: one who not only can admit their own mistakes, but can learn from their students. Then learning becomes dynamic. Which come to think of it, is a great word to describe many of Moskvina's pairs: dynamic.

The TSL interview is above all a charming, insightful Elena telling so much interesting stuff that Dave and Jonathan can hardly get a question in edgewise!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

A GS interview of M/G (eta: by Tatjana Flade) from October 9, 2020 shows Nastya, Sasha and Tamara as they "work with choreographer with Alexander Stepin." This concurs with what Nastya said after the pairs comp -- I believe it was at the press conference. She said that Stepin choreographed their program this year. Sadly, she said Stepin is deceased now, if I'm remembering all this correctly.

Mark Hanratty did mention Zhulin in connection with Mishina/Galliamov's choreography during his commentary for the free skate. Their Wiki pages also credit Zhulin for the fs, so there seems to have been some confusion.

Here's the link to that 10/9/20 interview: https://www.goldenskate.com/2020/10/mishina-and-galliamov-2/


And here's a quote of Mishina from that interview, speaking of what they've learned in their new training group.

“From my side, I think I understood more of the work of the coach,” Mishina pointed out. “I have a deeper understanding. Before, we just did what the coaches told us. Now before we do something, Tamara Nikolaevna has us to think about it and to think about all possible options to do it better.”

I love this. To me, it speaks of one of the ways Moskvina involves her skaters not just in expressing their opinions and giving their individual input, but in encouraging them to think more deeply before she instructs them. Another indication is what Mishina said about how they developed the new lift in their SP (And btw, there are a couple of great quotes from Galliamov, too!) From Nastya: “One person thought of the entry, while we worked out the middle part with an acrobat who suggested… I don’t even remember,” she said, laughing. Then Tamara decided what was the best option.

This goes right along with what Elena Bechke said about the process of making decisions with Tamara for her and Denis. And she gives an example of a time they felt strongly, Tamara fought them, and she gave them an option of hiring another choreographer, which they decided to do. Moskvina admitted ultimately that they were right about skating to that music. Another trait of a great teacher: one who not only can admit their own mistakes, but can learn from their students. Then learning becomes dynamic. Which come to think of it, is a great word to describe many of Moskvina's pairs: dynamic.

The TSL interview is above all a charming, insightful Elena telling so much interesting stuff thatYea Dave and Jonathan can hardly get a question in edgewise!

Yeah, thanks a lot for sharing all of these detailed specifics. I can't wait to finish watching the TSL pairs recap with Elena Bechke -- I still fondly remember her skating with LuLu's now husband, Denis Petrov.

Most certainly, there's a lot that goes into putting performances together. I always enjoy hearing or reading articles about the behind-the-scenes choreographic process. Usually there is input from a team of people, including the skaters. Sometimes choreographers scrap one idea and use a different one based on some happenstance movement by a skater during the process of creation, or if they see something that works better while building the program on the ice.

This whole art and sport is definitely a collaborative process. But at the end of the day, as you noted, Moskvina is the mastermind and the gentle yet firm guide. This has got to be an enormously rewarding outcome for her, particularly after her husband's recent passing.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Figure skating is a subjective sport. In other respects, please stop trying to enforce your way of thinking about S/H as the only 'factually correct' set in stone ultimatum. In fact, it is obviously you who 'aren't making an effort to understand a different opinion.'

You said "Sui/Han have never done a Quad Throw before" when they did it for MANY seasons. That is not subjective. It's you being factually wrong, and you've again tried to downplay your ignorance in the discussion with this straw-man attempt of acting like you are being mistreated. If you didn't know they were doing the Quad Throw when it's something they were known for, then it doesn't sound like you actually watched their programs, or have a good memory of them at least.

 

[Skatesocs]

It's you being factually wrong, and you've again tried to downplay your ignorance in the discussion with this straw-man attempt of acting like you are being mistreated.

Come on, it's not just always strawman. Sometimes they use more interesting fallacies. Or just play the victim because why not.

 

[skylark]

Yeah, thanks a lot for sharing all of these detailed specifics. I can't wait to finish watching the TSL pairs recap with Elena Bechke -- I still fondly remember her skating with LuLu's now husband, Denis Petrov.

Most certainly, there's a lot that goes into putting performances together. I always enjoy hearing or reading articles about the behind-the-scenes choreographic process. Usually there is input from a team of people, including the skaters. Sometimes choreographers scrap one idea and use a different one based on some happenstance movement by a skater during the process of creation, or if they see something that works better while building the program on the ice.

Yes, but Mishina specifically said Tamara's way of asking the skaters to think about questions, before telling them what to do, was new to her.

Also, I did want to emphasize that it was Alexander Stepin, not Zhulin, who choreographed "Bohemian Rhapsody/We Are the Champions."

 

[museksk8r]

Welcome, @Chiffon!

I like @ice coverage's suggestion of a thread to peruse. If I were new to pairs, so many choices might be a bit overwhelming for me, so I'll start you with just a few of my beloveds.

Here are just a few of my personal favorites from the past 3 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bNOnXTe4Ok - Aljona Savchenko/Bruno Massot (Germany) Olympic FS 2018

Pairs competing currently, in random order. These pairs aren't necessarily world medalists or necessarily the current top pair from their country, but for me, each performance has a bit of magic in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6cXjzg4gNg - Wenjing Sui/Cong Han (China) 2019 Worlds FS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPy2gCIWC6E - Ashley Cain-Gribble/Timothy Leduc (USA) 2019 Nationals FS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGz9DTo6gmM&t=301s - Anastasia Mishina/Alexandr Galliamov (Russia) 2021 Russian Final Cup


I think I'll stop there, in the interest of just giving you a bit of a start. Tastes differ wildly, so I'll refer you back to the recommended thread.

skylark, are we the same person? Haha, The 4 pairs you have referenced in this post are like my favorite teams of the present and last 6 years. These are all iconic performances you have linked!

 

[skylark]

skylark, are we the same person? Haha, The 4 pairs you have referenced in this post are like my favorite teams of the present and last 6 years. These are all iconic performances you have linked!

ho, hello! We must be the same person, since 2 of those 4 pairs are definitely not conventional favorites around here. But you called the word -- those performances are iconic.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Yes, but Mishina specifically said Tamara's way of asking the skaters to think about questions, before telling them what to do, was new to her.

Yeah, 'usually' may not be the best word, since the choreographic process can be different depending on the stage of an athlete's career, along with other factors. Obviously, as Elena Bechke related in the TSL interview, Moskvina is very unique and she has a special way of working with her athletes. And it works.

Bechke was so animated and talkative in the TSL recap, I'd love to see her write a memoir about her career, and especially her relationship with Moskvina. Bechke provided some informative anecdotes and revealing insights.

So Mark Hanretty got it wrong you're saying? It sounded to me like Hanretty said that Zhulin was brought in to help on a few things in the program, not that Zhulin choreographed the entire program.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

You said "Sui/Han have never done a Quad Throw before" when they did it for MANY seasons. That is not subjective. It's you being factually wrong, and you've again tried to downplay your ignorance in the discussion with this straw-man attempt of acting like you are being mistreated. If you didn't know they were doing the Quad Throw when it's something they were known for, then it doesn't sound like you actually watched their programs, or have a good memory of them at least.

Oh please stop already. I don't recall S/H doing a quad throw before. As I said, if they have, fine cite it and link it if it's available, OR NOT. It makes no difference at this point since quad elements are apparently considered too dangerous and not worth the risk vs reward in pairs at the moment.

Again, you should stop with the projecting and attempting to mischaracterize anyone else's behavior and motivations. Try and worry about your own. The way you are ramming S/H down everyone's throats is unbecoming and tiresome. It's reminiscent of the worst OTT behavior by Virtue/Moir fans. Your attitude doesn't make others like or appreciate S/H any better if they aren't avid fans. Quite the opposite.

 

[evangeline]

Oh please stop already. I don't recall S/H doing a quad throw before. As I said, if they have, fine cite it and link it if it's available, OR NOT. It makes no difference at this point since quad elements are apparently considered too dangerous and not worth the risk vs reward in pairs at the moment.

Again, you should stop with the projecting and attempting to mischaracterize anyone else's behavior and motivations. Try and worry about your own. The way you are ramming S/H down everyone's throats is unbecoming and tiresome. It's reminiscent of the worst OTT behavior by Virtue/Moir fans. Your attitude doesn't make others like or appreciate S/H any better if they aren't avid fans. Quite the opposite.

Throw 4S at 2016 4CC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R14G9BZ1lIc (they also do a 4twist during this LP!)

Maybe you'll better understand why other people like Sui/Han's skating if you actually watched more of their programs

 

[skylark]

Yeah, 'usually' may not be the best word, since the choreographic process can be different depending on the stage of an athlete's career, along with other factors. Obviously, as Elena Bechke related in the TSL interview, Moskvina is very unique and she has a special way of working with her athletes. And it works.

Bechke was so animated and talkative in the TSL recap, I'd love to see her write a memoir about her career, and especially her relationship with Moskvina. Bechke provided some informative anecdotes and revealing insights.

So Mark Hanretty got it wrong you're saying? It sounded to me like Hanretty said that Zhulin was brought in to help on a few things in the program, not that Zhulin choreographed the entire program.

I thought so before. But you know, the last time I watched M/G's program (last night) and listened to Hanratty, I "heard" it just slightly differently, more the way you said above ... and that was before I read this last post of yours.

I now think it's quite possible that Zhulin had a hand. But I'm sensitive to the fact that Anastasia brought up Alexander Stepin during the press conference and seemed to want him recognized as the choreographer. All this goes along with the fact that Tamara brings to bear the ideas and specialties of different members of her coaching staff for the technical/skating side, so it makes sense if she'd do that with choreography also.

Tamara mentioned that they'd tried "We Are the Champions" without the words. I watched their version from early November, and sure enough, no words. Tamara also said that that version also didn't give the effect they wanted, so she switched to the version with words. Great decision!

To broaden this out a little bit, that's such an important factor in all skating programs. When music gives an emotional surge, it can have such an impact on the skaters, the audiences, and the judges. It just brings out the emotions that the skaters want to communicate. An example from this season that still makes me unhappy is Cain-Gribble/Leduc's FS to Rachmaninoff. They (well, most likely their choreographer, Pasquale Camerlengo) cut the best part of the music. The part that is so passionate and that adds so much oomph to a skating program, when the skaters express the character of the music -- which is one of C-G/L's great talents. I'm hoping for great music for them for next year.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I don't recall S/H doing a quad throw before. As I said, if they have, fine cite it and link it if it's available,

Again, you should stop with the projecting and attempting to mischaracterize anyone else's behavior and motivations.

Oh God, you don't get it at all.

S/H did the quad throw in many programs, across many seasons. We were talking about the qualities S/H have shown in their career and you tried to act like you're some kind of expert about it. If you clearly don't remember or haven't seen many of the programs S/H have done over the years, then you're not qualified to talk about them as you've tried to.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Well this exciting SBS Australia is replaying highlights from the World Championship. Today it's pairs in glorious HD. Looking forward to it

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Oh God, you don't get it at all.

S/H did the quad throw in many programs, across many seasons. We were talking about the qualities S/H have shown in their career and you tried to act like you're some kind of expert about it. If you clearly don't remember or haven't seen many of the programs S/H have done over the years, then you're not qualified to talk about them as you've tried to.

Stop the nonsense already. You're not qualified to tell any fan that they are not qualified to speak their mind about how they view the sport and the skaters. Enjoy who you enjoy and cease with your policing and bullying in this thread, please.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Still love T/M's slide into the side by side spins in the SP. You gotta admit that's super epic.

Also I just noticed Dima's pants in the SP had sparkles up the side. I missed that on the stream and it's a nice touch

Oh no! And Peng and Jin really did have a disaster SP

I hope all three teams mentioned here can have an amazing comeback for the Olympic season

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

When music gives an emotional surge, it can have such an impact on the skaters, the audiences, and the judges. It just brings out the emotions that the skaters want to communicate. An example from this season that still makes me unhappy is Cain-Gribble/Leduc's FS to Rachmaninoff. They (well, most likely their choreographer, Pasquale Camerlengo) cut the best part of the music. The part that is so passionate and that adds so much oomph to a skating program, when the skaters express the character of the music -- which is one of C-G/L's great talents. I'm hoping for great music for them for next year.

Yes, music selection is extremely important. There are just so many aspects that have important meaning and resonance in skating. So many details that make this such a difficult sport/art. Now that you mention this about the Rachmaninoff music, I agree maybe that is what's missing for C-G/L -- the music cut doesn't allow for more impact like they had with their W.E. free skate during 2018 - 2019 season.


Yes, re the below. That's exactly what Elena Bechke said in the TSL interview. It makes sense. I didn't recall that they hadn't used lyrics in their initial performances. It was a good decision to include lyrics for the Worlds performance. It added some resonance and impact.

Did you see a video interview? Do you know whether there are YouTube links to Worlds press conferences?

Tamara mentioned that they'd tried "We Are the Champions" without the words. I watched their version from early November, and sure enough, no words. Tamara also said that that version also didn't give the effect they wanted, so she switched to the version with words. Great decision!