PCS per judge - Data Analysis AWG Mens FS

[Geek On Ice]

Data Analysis - 2017 Asian Winter Games Mens FS (PCS per each judge ONLY)

ACTUAL PCS * Only TOP 6 PCS
[TABLE="class: grid"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SS[/TD]
[TD]TR[/TD]
[TD]PE[/TD]
[TD]CO[/TD]
[TD]IN[/TD]
[TD]PCS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1. Shoma UNO[/TD]
[TD]8.90[/TD]
[TD]8.60[/TD]
[TD]8.65[/TD]
[TD]8.85[/TD]
[TD]8.85[/TD]
[TD]87.70[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2. Han YAN[/TD]
[TD]8.80[/TD]
[TD]8.45[/TD]
[TD]8.85[/TD]
[TD]8.70[/TD]
[TD]8.85[/TD]
[TD]87.30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3. Boyang JIN[/TD]
[TD]8.45[/TD]
[TD]8.15[/TD]
[TD]8.45[/TD]
[TD]8.30[/TD]
[TD]8.45[/TD]
[TD]83.60[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4. Takahito MURA[/TD]
[TD]8.40[/TD]
[TD]7.90[/TD]
[TD]8.45[/TD]
[TD]8.30[/TD]
[TD]8.35[/TD]
[TD]82.80[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5. Misha GE[/TD]
[TD]7.90[/TD]
[TD]7.55[/TD]
[TD]8.10[/TD]
[TD]8.10[/TD]
[TD]8.25[/TD]
[TD]79.80[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6. Denis TEN[/TD]
[TD]8.05[/TD]
[TD]7.50[/TD]
[TD]7.45[/TD]
[TD]7.55[/TD]
[TD]7.50[/TD]
[TD]76.10[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

---

* NOTE: TOP/BOTTOM scores will be cut off before taking an average score, so these analysis are just for references how each judges evaluated each skaters.

PCS PER JUDGE - sorted by judges (* Difference from Actual PCS)
[TABLE="class: grid"]
[TR]
[TD]J1 TPE[/TD]
[TD]1.UNO
89.00 (+1.30)[/TD]
[TD]1.YAN
89.00 (+1.70)[/TD]
[TD]1.MURA
89.00 (+6.20)[/TD]
[TD]4.JIN
84.50 (+0.90)[/TD]
[TD]5.TEN
81.00 (+4.90)[/TD]
[TD]6.GE
79.00 (-0.80)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]J2 HKG[/TD]
[TD]1.JIN
87.50 (+3.90)[/TD]
[TD]2.UNO
87.00 (-0.70)[/TD]
[TD]3.YAN
86.50 (-0.80)[/TD]
[TD]4.MURA
81.00 (-1.80)[/TD]
[TD]4.GE
81.00 (+1.20)[/TD]
[TD]6.TEN
75.00 (-1.10)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]J3 CHN[/TD]
[TD]1.YAN
90.50 (+3.20)[/TD]
[TD]2.JIN
87.00 (+3.40)[/TD]
[TD]3.UNO
84.00 (-3.70)[/TD]
[TD]4.MURA
81.50 (-1.30)[/TD]
[TD]5.GE
80.00 (+0.20)[/TD]
[TD]6.TEN
73.50 (-2.60)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]J4 AUS[/TD]
[TD]1.YAN
89.00 (+1.70)[/TD]
[TD]2.UNO
87.50 (-0.20)[/TD]
[TD]3.JIN
83.50 (-0.10)[/TD]
[TD]4.MURA
82.50 (-0.30)[/TD]
[TD]5.GE
78.00 (-1.80)[/TD]
[TD]6.TEN
75.50 (-0.60)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]J5 KOR[/TD]
[TD]1.UNO
87.00 (-0.70)[/TD]
[TD]2.JIN
85.00 (+1.40)[/TD]
[TD]3.YAN
83.50 (-3.80)[/TD]
[TD]4.GE
83.50 (+3.70)[/TD]
[TD]5.MURA
83.00 (+0.20)[/TD]
[TD]6.TEN
76.00 (-0.10)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]J6 JPN[/TD]
[TD]1.UNO
88.00 (+0.30)[/TD]
[TD]2.MURA
83.00 (+0.20)[/TD]
[TD]3.YAN
82.50 (-4.80)[/TD]
[TD]4.GE
78.00 (-1.80)[/TD]
[TD]5.JIN
77.50 (-6.10)[/TD]
[TD]6.TEN
70.50 (-5.60)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]J7 KAZ[/TD]
[TD]1.UNO
89.50 (+1.80)[/TD]
[TD]2.YAN
88.00 (+0.70)[/TD]
[TD]3.MURA
83.50 (+0.70)[/TD]
[TD]4.TEN
82.00 (+5.90)[/TD]
[TD]5.GE
79.50 (-0.30)[/TD]
[TD]6.JIN
77.00 (-6.60)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

PCS PER JUDGE - sorted by skaters (* Difference from Actual PCS)
[TABLE="class: grid"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Shoma UNO[/TD]
[TD]Han YAN[/TD]
[TD]Boyang JIN[/TD]
[TD]Takahito MURA[/TD]
[TD]Misha GE[/TD]
[TD]Denis TEN[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1.[/TD]
[TD]J7 KAZ
89.50 (+1.80)[/TD]
[TD]J3 CHN
90.50 (+3.20)[/TD]
[TD]J2 HKG
87.50 (+3.90)[/TD]
[TD]J1 TPE
89.00 (+6.20)[/TD]
[TD]J5 KOR
83.50 (+3.70)[/TD]
[TD]J7 KAZ
82.00 (+5.90)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2.[/TD]
[TD]J1 TPE
89.00 (+1.30)[/TD]
[TD]J1 TPE
89.00 (+1.70)[/TD]
[TD]J3 CHN
87.00 (+3.40)[/TD]
[TD]J7 KAZ
83.50 (+0.70)[/TD]
[TD]J2 HKG
81.00 (+1.20)[/TD]
[TD]J1 TPE
81.00 (+4.90)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3.[/TD]
[TD]J6 JPN
88.00 (+0.30)[/TD]
[TD]J4 AUS
89.00 (+1.70)[/TD]
[TD]J1 TPE
84.50 (+0.90)[/TD]
[TD]J6 JPN
83.00 (+0.20)[/TD]
[TD]J3 CHN
80.00 (+0.20)[/TD]
[TD]J5 KOR
76.00 (-0.10)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4.[/TD]
[TD]J4 AUS
87.50 (-0.20)[/TD]
[TD]J7 KAZ
88.00 (+0.70)[/TD]
[TD]J5 KOR
85.00 (+1.40)[/TD]
[TD]J5 KOR
83.00 (+0.20)[/TD]
[TD]J7 KAZ
79.50 (-0.30)[/TD]
[TD]J4 AUS
75.50 (-0.60)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5.[/TD]
[TD]J2 HKG
87.00 (-0.70)[/TD]
[TD]J2 HKG
86.50 (-0.80)[/TD]
[TD]J4 AUS
83.50 (-0.10)[/TD]
[TD]J4 AUS
82.50 (-0.30)[/TD]
[TD]J1 TPE
79.00 (-0.80)[/TD]
[TD]J2 HKG
75.00 (-1.10)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6.[/TD]
[TD]J5 KOR
87.00 (-0.70)[/TD]
[TD]J5 KOR
83.50 (-3.80)[/TD]
[TD]J6 JPN
77.50 (-6.10)[/TD]
[TD]J3 CHN
81.50 (-1.30)[/TD]
[TD]J4 AUS
78.00 (-1.80)[/TD]
[TD]J3 CHN
73.50 (-2.60)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.[/TD]
[TD]J3 CHN
84.00 (-3.70)[/TD]
[TD]J6 JPN
82.50 (-4.80)[/TD]
[TD]J7 KAZ
77.00 (-6.60)[/TD]
[TD]J2 HKG
81.00 (-1.80)[/TD]
[TD]J6 JPN
78.00 (-1.80)[/TD]
[TD]J6 JPN
70.50 (-5.60)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]H-L[/TD]
[TD]5.50[/TD]
[TD]8.00[/TD]
[TD]10.50[/TD]
[TD]8.00[/TD]
[TD]5.50[/TD]
[TD]11.50[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
* Some of marks are same so the ranking # may not reflect. (eg. KOR's score on Mura is same as JPN so it's actually '3'.)
** H-L: Difference between highest and lowest mark per skater.

---

First of all, I'm 'sort of' back at GS! Oh, how much I missed you guys & GS!!! :hap93:
Second of all, due to my work load increase (& being sooooo sad about Mura's JN results), I'm so sorry that I haven't been able to provide those data analysis but I'm actually working on the better ways right now, so hopefully I can complete it before Worlds... (if anyone is still interested... hehe...)

Okay, so I did this analysis on PCS (per judge) from AWG Mens FS, to see how my man MURA was evaluated.
(Wasn't he ever GORGEOUS in AWG, especially in the FS StSq?! I JUST LOVE HIM!!)

I was going to post this in AWG thread, but I wanted to hear your thoughts, so I decided to post it here. (Please move the post, if you think it's inappropriate.)
I've never done analysis per judge before (now I'm so sure I'll start doing it), but I think I see that judges do tend to mark high for the skaters from their country (or mark low for the skaters that may beat the skaters from their country). AWG is not a regular ISU event, so maybe this data analysis alone is not a good sample though... and of course I haven't done TES part yet either.

I'm sure this topic has been discussed in the past, like million times... but now we actually see the data this year, my questions are:
1. Do you think this DOES happen in reality? Or do you think it's just a result of fair assessment/evaluation, according to differences in judges's taste?
2. If this is actually happening, do you think it's acceptable? How do you feel about this?

I personally think it does happen but this is like a given thing, a part of 'figure skating'. TBH I don't like it, IF any skaters are not evaluated fairly because of this, but what can we do, eh? OTOH, IF all countries do this, then it cancels out each other a bit and also since top/bottom mark will be cut anyway, we may actually see the 'closer-to-true' results, by getting rid of crazy 'cheer-for-your-own-skater' marks, maybe? What do you guys think??


p.s. I want to give a huge hug to TPE judge :luv17:, who gave my man MURA wonderful high marks (which in my mind he actually deserves them)!!!!

 

[Daniel1998]

Thanks for the analysis.

Country bias is obvious and happens so often that we can likely dismiss the argument that it's "a result of fair assessment/evaluation". Just look at the ice dance scores from any major competition- recently I believe there was a US judge who gave all three American dance teams higher PCS than Virtue and Moir.

It's probably not fair, but I think we've all gotten used to it, and if everyone does it, then the effects cancel each other out, don't they? It's also hard to avoid- as much as we try to look at things from an objective perspective, even the judges are human and feel the pull of national bias and pride when they judge. Sometimes our own skaters just look better to us even if they really aren't.

 

[Interspectator]

Welcome baaaack! Thanks for this, as always. Mura was wonderful at AWG. It made me so happy to see him again on the ice. And it made me really regret that he's not on the Worlds team.

 

[gladiolusc]

Data Analysis - 2017 Asian Winter Games Mens FS (PCS per each judge ONLY)

Thanks for doing the analysis! Would you be doing SP as well? And I think it's worth doing AWG. Although it is not a regular ISU event, I remember at least one judge who was also on the 4CC panel. It would be weird if they mentally change their criteria from competition to competition just because. Looking forward to the TES part!

(And yes, Mura was awesome :thumbsup: Was so happy for him/ to see him skate so well. )

 

[icellist]

Can you make a table just using the SS values? I think it would be much more apparent.
From my own eyes just on skating skills, I see that Shoma Uno, Han Yan, and Takahito Mura (in no particular order) have the best edges and power behind their skating. Then Denis Ten. Then Misha Ge or Boyang Jin (both don't have a lot of power and unless it is specific to the choreography, usually have sloppy or shallow edges). I think it is a travesty that it is not as transparently reflected in the scores (Jin is higher than Mura). In this case, yes China and Hong Kong gave preference to Boyang. I think the judges see that "oh they can do a difficult quad, let's give them a higher SS" which should not be the case.

If I used the total PCS as an average of the SS value, I agree with the KAZ judge the most and then the TPE judge.

 

[Interspectator]

For me and for the judges, I see they have the most disagreements on how to deal with Denis Ten and Boyang Jin's PCS scores. For mirror reasons perhaps.
Denis could be the highest scorer in PCS if he skates to his potential, it remains in the judges minds that he has the ability to be one of the best in the world. But this was a horrible skate for him. How much PCS should be deducted for a skate with so many technical errors and disruptions in the program? Opinions differ up to 10 points.

Boyang has limited skating skills and his free skate has a large stop and pose section in the middle ( very cute and funny) of the top 5 guys he should usually be scored behind them in PCS. But he skated a very strong Free skate. How much of a PCS boost should he get for this? Like the super long thread elsewhere on the edge about PCS being tied to BV, should Boyang get extra points in PCS for his quadtastic display and enthusiasm? Judges opinions also differ up to 10 points.

 

[gladiolusc]

Can you make a table just using the SS values? I think it would be much more apparent.
From my own eyes just on skating skills, I see that Shoma Uno, Han Yan, and Takahito Mura (in no particular order) have the best edges and power behind their skating. Then Denis Ten. Then Misha Ge or Boyang Jin (both don't have a lot of power and unless it is specific to the choreography, usually have sloppy or shallow edges). I think it is a travesty that it is not as transparently reflected in the scores (Jin is higher than Mura). In this case, yes China and Hong Kong gave preference to Boyang. I think the judges see that "oh they can do a difficult quad, let's give them a higher SS" which should not be the case.

If I used the total PCS as an average of the SS value, I agree with the KAZ judge the most and then the TPE judge.

Without agreeing/disagreeing, I'm also noticing that the JPN and KAZ gave Boyang significantly lower scores, by a whole 6 points from the next judge up. TPE was also a huge outlier for Mura, who otherwise has remarkably concentrated PCS scoring.

But generally speaking, the main issues for me in AWG was in the TES (GOE) and especially in the SP. PCS, I could see it either ways - like what specs said, the discrepancy might be in the inability to quantify and rank "a vastly better than usual performance" vs a "vastly worse than average performance"

 

[karne]

Um, why do you claim this is the top 6 and then completely ignore Brendan? *beyond miffed*

 

[Interspectator]

Um, why do you claim this is the top 6 and then completely ignore Brendan? *beyond miffed*

Poor Brendan! I was so shocked that he did the 4T and 4S together. Amazing.

 

[Geek On Ice]

Um, why do you claim this is the top 6 and then completely ignore Brendan? *beyond miffed*

Just quickly before I reply to other wonderful posts...
SO SO SO SORRY karne!!! :hslap:
I just had enough time to do the top 6 in PCS RANKING only (not the actual TSS scores), but actually now I'm planning to do the full analysis for AWG (it may take a little) and Brendan for sure will be included for that!!

Just to let you know... I really like Brendan!! (Didn't you see my thumbs ups when you commented on Brendan in the past?!) And I was actually going to get into that in AWG thread (I just ran out of time) about him receiving lower PCS that I think he should... just like how I feel about Mura. Because his skating skill is great and also Brendan did 4T and 4S, so the theory of "oh he's doing so many quads, let's give him better SS" doesn't make sense any more, you know what I mean? Anyway, I got to get back to work for a bit... I just wanted to apologize if you felt Brendan was ignored!!! Because certainly he is not!!!

 

[karne]

It's okay Geek On Ice, I didn't read the top post properly. Now I am still miffed, but at the judges that Brendan got lower PCS for his FS than that sloppy mess from Ten!

 

[Mathman]

Sometimes our own skaters just look better to us even if they really aren't.

This wins the quote of the month prize.

Now if I can just figure out why the Kazakhstan judge didn't like Jin...

 

[Sugiady]

This wins the quote of the month prize.

Now if I can just figure out why the Kazakhstan judge didn't like Jin...

If we throw away the conspiracy theory…maybe he just didn't like Boyang‘s taste on music.:gaah:

 

[4everchan]

welcome back my dear

 

[apple123]

I think the TES and GOE are worth analyzing more than PCS. Some of the GOEs given to Shoma are really scandalous, both in sp and lp. It's beyond ridiculous.

 

[Tavi...]

Geek on Ice, I love your number crunching and the conversations it inspires - welcome back!

 

[Arriba627]

Thx for doing that Geek on Ice. Welcome back...Tavi, thank you for being my 5,000th thumb.

 

[4everchan]

Thx for doing that Geek on Ice. Welcome back...Tavi, thank you for being my 5,000th thumb.

a good person to give a thumbs up

 

[Interspectator]

I see that the judges are strict with Misha, and all basically agree about where to place him in PCS. On it's own I think the scores are fair. But in comparison to generous scores given to other skaters, Misha was underscored in PCS.

 

[4everchan]

I see that the judges are strict with Misha, and all basically agree about where to place him in PCS. On it's own I think the scores are fair. But in comparison to generous scores given to other skaters, Misha was underscored in PCS.

Misha is capable of incredibly fascinating skating. However, this FP is IMHO a snoozefest. Of course, I base my opinion on seeing it in person at ACI but watching it at AWG is pretty much the same.... The first part of the FP is super slow with nothing but setting up his 2 3A... People say Nam is slow? Sure... but in that first minute Misha is almost at a standstill... it's weird... he is so cautious in the 3A that he pretty much waits and stop before going up off his edge. The first time, it's okay but then, the second time it's even worse as he tags the combo with the half loop on it.... After that, there is hoping that it will get better but it only doe in the last 45 seconds of the FP where finally, he brings some fire in the steps. Honestly, Misha was such a disappointment for me, perhaps my hopes were too high. I think that finishing in the top ten a couple years ago at worlds is responsible for this. He no longer skates with as much insouciance... he just wants to do well and he is way less carefree and original than before. It's too bad IMHO but it doesn't really matter... as soon as he will turn the page on his competitive career, he will shine again in shows and doing choreos for others. For instance, if I were a Grand Prix or big event host, I would totally hire him to do the final numbers of the gala... He is so good... but yeah... right now, I am afraid to say that I am not surprised with MIsha getting lower PCS than one would expect... He is missing so many things the others have : quads, speed, transitions, flow... and he no longer has what defined him so much : originality.... nutcracker IMHO was a bad choice...