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- Jul 26, 2003
chuckm said:
Ximena said:
Thank you for pointing out my mistake in my original post. I could say that I meant to say "CHN," but Dr. Freud would argue that what I really meant to say was "USA"
Plushenko has declined Grand Prix
- Thread starter Ptichka
- Start date
Thank you for pointing out my mistake in my original post. I could say that I meant to say "CHN," but Dr. Freud would argue that what I really meant to say was "USA"
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
hockeyfan228 said:
ABSOLUTELY. And those fans who enjoy the whole sport and not just their favorite would get to see many of the skaters we only hear about in singles, pairs and dance. I hope the ISU takes note.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I agree that they'd want to participate in GP to get feedback, but why try to peak for the GP events, especially GPF? A skater can get his/her feedback, maybe give it a second test run, and then aim toward Nationals, Euros/4C's, and Worlds. Plus there are the "minor" competitions, like Finlandia, where more top skaters might go for CoP feedback, thus spreading the wealth even more.Ptichka said:
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- Jul 26, 2003
I suspect if Tarasova told the Japanese Federation that competiting in GPF would cause Arakawa to peak too soon or would endanger her Olympics potential, there's a chance they wouldn't block out two of three berths for skaters based on the results.Ptichka said:
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- Jun 21, 2003
This isn't about Plushenko specifically, and I have had it explained to me about "peaking," etc., BUT...
I just cannot understand all these arguments about how it might profit a skater to blow off the Grand Prix. These are professional athletes. The top ones are rich and famous for excelling in their sport. Is it really an outrageous burden on them to perform, say, once a month during their sport's season?
Skate America in October, Skate China in November, the Grand Prix Final in December, Nationals in January, Europeans or Four Continents in February, Worlds in March. Barring injury, a well-trained athlete ought to be able to do that standing on his/her head.
What if a professional baseball player told his team, I think I'll skip the regular season, I'll see you in the playoffs?
Mathman
I just cannot understand all these arguments about how it might profit a skater to blow off the Grand Prix. These are professional athletes. The top ones are rich and famous for excelling in their sport. Is it really an outrageous burden on them to perform, say, once a month during their sport's season?
Skate America in October, Skate China in November, the Grand Prix Final in December, Nationals in January, Europeans or Four Continents in February, Worlds in March. Barring injury, a well-trained athlete ought to be able to do that standing on his/her head.
What if a professional baseball player told his team, I think I'll skip the regular season, I'll see you in the playoffs?
Mathman
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
I for one don't minimize the toll that long-distance travel can take. The GP participation you outlined above would involve competition on least two, if not three continents. The GP final is in China this year and is barely 3 weeks before U.S. Nationals (and one week before Christmas, the usual time for Russian Nationals). If a skater had the international competitive experience and $$ necessary, I can certainly understand why they might "blow off" the GP series, especially in the past when they introduced the idiotic two LP and head-to-head formats at the final. I know that you weren't speaking primarily about Plushenko, but he *does* have a chronic knee problem and I'll bet he is praying that if he wins CoR, that 12 points will NOT get him into the GP Final -- and if they do, probably he will decline to compete. For skaters on the way up, it is a chance to earn some needed $$, gain valuable competitive experience, and also TV exposure if they skate well. For established skaters, the advantages of the "series" are considerably less. The whole GP series was concocted by the ISU a dozen or so years ago -- before that skaters managed with only 2-4 competitions total a year.Mathman said:
About your baseball analogy, I wonder how many players would accept a tour in Japan, China, Russia or Europe especially with the offer of a pay cut? Also, striking out in the first inning doesn't mean that you won't hit a home run in the 8th. It's pointless to compare the two sports -- the room for error (except perhaps in a do or die game in the post season) is much less for skaters, while the chance for disaster is much greater.
Figure skaters are individual athletes. The US World team may all be representing the US, but each skater / pair / dance pair has no interaction with the other members of the team. When each goes out on the ice, he/she/they are responsible only for what they do in performance.
Each skater / pair has his/her/their own physical limitations, and it may be that the ISU schedule taxes their bodies too much. It seems that every year, there are more and more top skaters dropping by the wayside with injuries, some permanent (Yagudin, Lipinski, Nari Nam, Stellato).
Right now, we will have to do without Plushenko, Klimkin and Lambiel and though Honda has returned, he is clearly not the skater he was before the injury.
Yet even while this parade of the lame and injured grows, people are demanding more quads, more 3/3s, more difficulty, and more competitions.
Each skater / pair has his/her/their own physical limitations, and it may be that the ISU schedule taxes their bodies too much. It seems that every year, there are more and more top skaters dropping by the wayside with injuries, some permanent (Yagudin, Lipinski, Nari Nam, Stellato).
Right now, we will have to do without Plushenko, Klimkin and Lambiel and though Honda has returned, he is clearly not the skater he was before the injury.
Yet even while this parade of the lame and injured grows, people are demanding more quads, more 3/3s, more difficulty, and more competitions.
Well for a better analogy, how about tennis players who do travel among several continents within the space of a few weeks. Plus the demands of winning a tournament are greater than that to win a Grand Prix event.
I was reading in this month's issue ot ISF on the effects of the reduced prize money and the contention was that the skaters really don't skate for the money. I really admired how Sasha Cohen flat out said how reducing the prize money made it worthless (paraphrasing here) to compete Grand Prix b/c once you factor in costume costs and training costs, the prize money really doesn't help. She also said it would impose a burden on those skaters who do not receive a lot money from their federations.
First of all, 18G for first place is nothing in this sport, esp when costumes, choreography and training run upwards to 50-60G a year. This isn't even counting medical expenses that may ensue , special dietary requirements etc. Plus these events are like exhibitions with just a few skaters invited to compete. Also 2G last place finish wouldn't even cover airfare for the skater and coach to compete (and hotel). Not all federations can afford to pay for all of this.
Look at professional sports in general and I consider figure skating to be a fairly high profile sport , 18G is really low for the winner of an event.
Now I bet that if the ISU made these events with 100G first prizes and made them similar to Worlds (they could be like Grand Slams), you wouldn't have a probel with skaters not being able to compete well in those. I think it's pitiful that they don't even award 100G as first prize to the World Champion. Plus the ISU needs to do something about how they organize their events as well. Considering all the money they had to play with in their old contract, the ISU should have done more to keep the sport in the big time with better events. Wake up call ISU, you're not amateur anymore (no matter how much you wish to be) so get with the times and be more professional in your organization.
I was reading in this month's issue ot ISF on the effects of the reduced prize money and the contention was that the skaters really don't skate for the money. I really admired how Sasha Cohen flat out said how reducing the prize money made it worthless (paraphrasing here) to compete Grand Prix b/c once you factor in costume costs and training costs, the prize money really doesn't help. She also said it would impose a burden on those skaters who do not receive a lot money from their federations.
First of all, 18G for first place is nothing in this sport, esp when costumes, choreography and training run upwards to 50-60G a year. This isn't even counting medical expenses that may ensue , special dietary requirements etc. Plus these events are like exhibitions with just a few skaters invited to compete. Also 2G last place finish wouldn't even cover airfare for the skater and coach to compete (and hotel). Not all federations can afford to pay for all of this.
Look at professional sports in general and I consider figure skating to be a fairly high profile sport , 18G is really low for the winner of an event.
Now I bet that if the ISU made these events with 100G first prizes and made them similar to Worlds (they could be like Grand Slams), you wouldn't have a probel with skaters not being able to compete well in those. I think it's pitiful that they don't even award 100G as first prize to the World Champion. Plus the ISU needs to do something about how they organize their events as well. Considering all the money they had to play with in their old contract, the ISU should have done more to keep the sport in the big time with better events. Wake up call ISU, you're not amateur anymore (no matter how much you wish to be) so get with the times and be more professional in your organization.
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
I would like to add something to the thread that has not been mentioned. Plushenko, unlike many in here seem to think, is not going to stay still during the GP. He has 2 shows in St. Petersburg where he's apparently going to skate some 6 or 7 times, he has shows in Japan (which is far and he will have to travel by plane many hours) and he has another Art On Ice show in Budapest, if I'm not mistaken. And then he will compete in Cup of Russia.
So clearly he won't be resting much between all the travelling and skating.
It's true that skating in shows isn't as taxing on the body as preparing for competitions and he doesn't need quads or hard combinations, but IMO another reason why he is not doing the Grand Prix has to do with the prize money being cut. He can make plenty of money while skating in shows and not needing as much effort. Considering he also has an injury and he needs to pace himself for the Olympics, I would have to say this is a smart and wise strategy on his part.
So clearly he won't be resting much between all the travelling and skating.
It's true that skating in shows isn't as taxing on the body as preparing for competitions and he doesn't need quads or hard combinations, but IMO another reason why he is not doing the Grand Prix has to do with the prize money being cut. He can make plenty of money while skating in shows and not needing as much effort. Considering he also has an injury and he needs to pace himself for the Olympics, I would have to say this is a smart and wise strategy on his part.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
And Sasha's family can well afford for her to skate anything with or without prize money.
However, the point is well taken. Higher prizes will get more interest especially for families who can ill afford all the paraphanelia required to figure skate.
My own feelings about this, is to forget the rich and famous and let the 2nd tier skaters take part in these competitions - more for the experience than the money.
Joe
However, the point is well taken. Higher prizes will get more interest especially for families who can ill afford all the paraphanelia required to figure skate.
My own feelings about this, is to forget the rich and famous and let the 2nd tier skaters take part in these competitions - more for the experience than the money.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
Can't spend money you don't have and can't raise the $$ for prize money when what reduced revunue the ISU now has must be spent on things that are evidently more important to them: fancy-schmancy new computer hardware and software for the new judging system, training judges in the new judging system, hiring new personnel (technical specialists, etc.), more ISU judges needed per event (travel, per diem, etc.) -- and of course we must not cut back on the hospitality suites for ISU bigwigs and friends. It's a matter of priorities.soogar said:
Re Money:
Actually, I was referring to the fact that the ISU did have a lucrative skating contract at one point and their mismanagement of their events is what lead to declining ratings and thus the loss of their contracts.
The main thing is that the amateur format of the invitational events (Grand Prix before prize money) is not conducive toward keeping fan interest. The same skaters compete in 2 events or 3 with the same programs. The average viewer who tuned in to the events would see the same programs over and over. While die hard fans will watch this, the average person doesn't want to see the same stuff over and over. There were a few options. The ISU could have reduced the events and made the competitions bigger and spaced them out over time. Plus they could have mandated that skaters have to prepare different programs for the events. This would keep viewer interest.
Re Sasha's comment:
Yes her family can afford to keep her skating. However I think that it's telling that she of all people thinks about how the smaller skater will fare in all this. Plus considering how Sasha wears so many of Jenny Meno's hand me downs (even as a high level senior skater), I think she is very conscious of the costs of the sport which is refreshing.
Another thing is that the ISU awards prize money for the Junior Grand Prix. A few years ago, Sydne Vogel won 10G for the Junior World title. I understand the intent of the ISU to defray training costs for junior skaters, however I really don't think junior skaters should be competing on a circuit akin to senior skaters for prize money. It puts too much pressure on them to perform, plus there were issues of age eligible senior skaters sandbagging to win prize money at junior worlds (in int'l juniors, as long as you meet the age req't, you can compete in both). Quite frankly, the kids should be concentrating on school and not on winning prize money.
I think that the ISU really needs to take a hard look at how the events are structured and perhaps eliminate a few Grand Prix events to increase the purse size for the events they do keep , get rid of prize money for the juniors and make the remaining Grand Prix events larger. Or better yet, just have 2 Grand Prix qualifying events , the Grand Prix final, 4C , Euros and Worlds. Fewer events, more skaters, more dollars.
Actually, I was referring to the fact that the ISU did have a lucrative skating contract at one point and their mismanagement of their events is what lead to declining ratings and thus the loss of their contracts.
The main thing is that the amateur format of the invitational events (Grand Prix before prize money) is not conducive toward keeping fan interest. The same skaters compete in 2 events or 3 with the same programs. The average viewer who tuned in to the events would see the same programs over and over. While die hard fans will watch this, the average person doesn't want to see the same stuff over and over. There were a few options. The ISU could have reduced the events and made the competitions bigger and spaced them out over time. Plus they could have mandated that skaters have to prepare different programs for the events. This would keep viewer interest.
Re Sasha's comment:
Yes her family can afford to keep her skating. However I think that it's telling that she of all people thinks about how the smaller skater will fare in all this. Plus considering how Sasha wears so many of Jenny Meno's hand me downs (even as a high level senior skater), I think she is very conscious of the costs of the sport which is refreshing.
Another thing is that the ISU awards prize money for the Junior Grand Prix. A few years ago, Sydne Vogel won 10G for the Junior World title. I understand the intent of the ISU to defray training costs for junior skaters, however I really don't think junior skaters should be competing on a circuit akin to senior skaters for prize money. It puts too much pressure on them to perform, plus there were issues of age eligible senior skaters sandbagging to win prize money at junior worlds (in int'l juniors, as long as you meet the age req't, you can compete in both). Quite frankly, the kids should be concentrating on school and not on winning prize money.
I think that the ISU really needs to take a hard look at how the events are structured and perhaps eliminate a few Grand Prix events to increase the purse size for the events they do keep , get rid of prize money for the juniors and make the remaining Grand Prix events larger. Or better yet, just have 2 Grand Prix qualifying events , the Grand Prix final, 4C , Euros and Worlds. Fewer events, more skaters, more dollars.
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- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I think many of them (and hockey players and basketball players) do that already...Mathman said:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Good point. Alex Rodriguez did nothing for the Yankees all season, then all of a sudden last night he stepped up and hit the game winning double in extra innings to even the playoffs.Top skaters go on tour all summer. In 2002 Michelle did something like 82 shows in 82 days for COI. Even though she didn't do 7 triples, she did deliver technically complete and expressively Kwanderful performances (Fields of Gold) at every stop. Maybe this is like the "regular season."
This year Michelle is signed up to do Skate America and Skate Canada back to back. The exhibitions for Skate America are on Sunday and practices start in Halifax on Wednesday. Michelle was reported as saying that she hurt her back trying to get her layback spin up to a level 3 (four changes of position) for the CoP, which is why she held back a little in her spins at Campbell's.
Anyway, take care of yourselves, Michelle
and Evgeny . Do what you have to do.But still...I don't know...in general, I don't find myself shedding tears of sympathy for the healthy skater who says, oh, poor me, how can you expect me to skate this month when I am still recovering from my exertion four weeks ago.
Last summer Sale and Pelletier were supposed to headline a show in Sun Valley, but when they arrived they didn't have the right kind of visa to allow them to work in the U.S. (shades of Ann Patrice!) So on the very day of the show the organizers flew in Surya Bonaly from California, and she delivered right then and there like the professional athlete that she is (and was probably glad to get the work). To me, bottom line: if you're a skater, skate.
Mathman
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- Jul 11, 2003
Mathman - I'm not one for following that corporate team called the Yankees and I skim over all that's written about them but in my skimming, A-Rod did improve as the season progressed. He is a powerhouse and of course that comporate team was able to offer him the best deal in the first place. He and Jeter are supposedly getting along fine but I'm not so sure. They both want to play shortstop. Oh, this baseball gossip.
Tonight, it's game 3 in Minnesota and also the debate of Bush/Kerry. Which event will win the ratings? Meanwhile, I hope La Kwan is not gloating over the Campbells and we will see a 3x3 in Skate America soon. I have tickets for that 3x3 event, because I believe Ota will outdo any presentation in the biz of eligible skating this season, and if she 3x3's, skating will take on a new ball game. JMO.
Joe
Tonight, it's game 3 in Minnesota and also the debate of Bush/Kerry. Which event will win the ratings? Meanwhile, I hope La Kwan is not gloating over the Campbells and we will see a 3x3 in Skate America soon. I have tickets for that 3x3 event, because I believe Ota will outdo any presentation in the biz of eligible skating this season, and if she 3x3's, skating will take on a new ball game. JMO.
Joe
Joesitz said:
Actually Joe, the Yankees are one of the few teams not owned by big corporations. The Steinbrenners may be a wealthy family, but it is not like Cablevision who have ruined the Knick and Rangers, or the Tribune Corp who own the cursed Chicago Cubbies.
And I hope Michelle works to bring back her 3-3s in time for Nationals and Worlds as well as for the GP.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Hi Bronxgirl - I didn't mean that literally. It's just my nasty way of having so much distaste for the Yankee dominance in baseball. If what you say is true then maybe I should call team the Olegarchy teambronxgirl said:
I think Michelle should do the 3x3s in the GPs to see what score she may get for them. Bringing them back to the Nats will not do this because the Nats are still on the 6.0 system. So she will go to Worlds without ever knowing how important the 3x3s are. not good! (Who cares if she doesn't medal in the GPs)
BTW, you must be a Yankee fan if you're a decendant of the Bronx.
Joe (origin Brooklyn, and a big hater of O'Malley.
)
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