Pre-rotation

[Sam-Skwantch]

Mr Uno takes off at 250 degree pre rotation. And the jump Mr. Uno landed in the video is even badly UR..

I wouldn't say that his jump was badly UR. When I was editing I stopped it for myself and he was within 90 degrees in my opinion and the take off seemed a bit beyond 180 from his initial starting point but he pivots on his toe pick only a bit over 90 degrees. He certainly PR's more than Hanyu, who doesn't, but it's a give take. Since he picks in at such an angle his jump loses the floaty look that someone like Hanyu or even Max carries and as such in it is reflected fairly in the GOE.

I feel 100% confident that it is fair to give Shoma the BV on this jump but only zero to maybe even a negative GOE. I think PR needs to be looked at but if the skater still springs into a nice air position and lands within a reasonable amount of UR then the jump should be given full credit. It's up to the judges to assess the quality and not the TP although I will say he is maxing out what a legal 4f should be IMO. I was amazed at how he took off from the toe pick TBH. After he picks in..... his blade then stops rotating and he floats a bit while holding it at just over the 90 degrees point. Just watching the chunks of ice explode as he vaults up into the rotation is pretty fascinating.

https://youtu.be/MwIOHY_kM4I?t=34s

The reason I think this 4f should count is because while he may rotate over 90 degrees on the toe pick, he isn't using the rotation on the toe to create the jump. He actually vaults up into a good air position. Hell....I'd probably throw him a positive GOE just for holding onto that landing and making it look a little crispy. So for me I'd probably give it a final GOE of +0 after factoring in everything. Obviously YMMV but that's just my take. I don't think there is a right or wrong here.

***regarding Hanyu....I never noticed the way he checks his head backward for a brief second at takeoff on the 4s. His technique is amazing and I'm just blown away by everything. I really wanted to throw in the 3a because it is so perfect but I didn't think it would be appropriate for the purpose of this thread.

 

[Interspectator]

I wouldn't say that his jump was badly UR. When I was editing I stopped it for myself and he was within 90 degrees in my opinion and the take off seemed a bit beyond 180 from his initial starting point but he pivots on his toe pick only a bit over 90 degrees. He certainly PR's more than Hanyu, who doesn't, but it's a give take. Since he picks in at such an angle his jump loses the floaty look that someone like Hanyu or even Max carries and as such in it is reflected fairly in the GOE.

I feel 100% confident that it is fair to give Shoma the BV on this jump but only zero to maybe even a negative GOE. I think PR needs to be looked at but if the skater still springs into a nice air position and lands within a reasonable amount of UR then the jump should be given full credit. It's up to the judges to assess the quality and not the TP although I will say he is maxing out what a legal 4f should be IMO. I was amazed at how he took off from the toe pick TBH. After he picks in..... his blade then stops rotating and he floats a bit while holding it at just over the 90 degrees point. Just watching the chunks of ice explode as he vaults up into the rotation is pretty fascinating.

https://youtu.be/MwIOHY_kM4I?t=34s

The reason I think this 4f should count is because while he may rotate over 90 degrees on the toe pick, he isn't using the rotation on the toe to create the jump. He actually vaults up into a good air position. Hell....I'd probably throw him a positive GOE just for holding onto that landing and making it look a little crispy. So for me I'd probably give it a final GOE of +0 after factoring in everything. Obviously YMMV but that's just my take. I don't think there is a right or wrong here.

***regarding Hanyu....I never noticed the way he checks his head backward for a brief second at takeoff on the 4s. His technique is amazing and I'm just blown away by everything. I really wanted to throw in the 3a because it is so perfect but I didn't think it would be appropriate for the purpose of this thread.

:thumbsup: The difference should be reflected in GOEs. So shoma should get credit for his 4F because he did do it and landed on one foot but with 0 GOE. And Yuzu should get 3+ for his quads because they are beautiful and check all the boxes.

I also like the way Jin, Han, Petrov, Kolyada, Javi, Patrick, Max and Mura Jump. With their different body-types, they all achieve a pretty good technique on their jumps. I don't slow-mo their jumps but it just 'looks' good. They get that nice floaty air-time.

 

[Khoai]

I wouldn't say that his jump was badly UR. When I was editing I stopped it for myself and he was within 90 degrees in my opinion and the take off seemed a bit beyond 180 from his initial starting point but he pivots on his toe pick only a bit over 90 degrees. He certainly PR's more than Hanyu, who doesn't, but it's a give take. Since he picks in at such an angle his jump loses the floaty look that someone like Hanyu or even Max carries and as such in it is reflected fairly in the GOE.

I feel 100% confident that it is fair to give Shoma the BV on this jump but only zero to maybe even a negative GOE. I think PR needs to be looked at but if the skater still springs into a nice air position and lands within a reasonable amount of UR then the jump should be given full credit. It's up to the judges to assess the quality and not the TP although I will say he is maxing out what a legal 4f should be IMO. I was amazed at how he took off from the toe pick TBH. After he picks in..... his blade then stops rotating and he floats a bit while holding it at just over the 90 degrees point. Just watching the chunks of ice explode as he vaults up into the rotation is pretty fascinating.

https://youtu.be/MwIOHY_kM4I?t=34s

The reason I think this 4f should count is because while he may rotate over 90 degrees on the toe pick, he isn't using the rotation on the toe to create the jump. He actually vaults up into a good air position. Hell....I'd probably throw him a positive GOE just for holding onto that landing and making it look a little crispy. So for me I'd probably give it a final GOE of +0 after factoring in everything. Obviously YMMV but that's just my take. I don't think there is a right or wrong here.

***regarding Hanyu....I never noticed the way he checks his head backward for a brief second at takeoff on the 4s. His technique is amazing and I'm just blown away by everything. I really wanted to throw in the 3a because it is so perfect but I didn't think it would be appropriate for the purpose of this thread.

Take off 1 (toe pick hits the ice as in the "pick in")

Take off 2 (whole blade pivots on the ice in the first revolution)

Take off 3 (toe pick is still on the ice and is finally going leave at this point)

Landing 1 (tip of toe pick about to hit the ice)

Landing 2: (full blade hits the ice)

Landing 3: (full blade pivots on the ice)

The photos are all in order.

My comprehension is that: This is badly Under Rotated. I never call this a fully rotated quad. It should have gotten <.

 

[ysy94]

Take off 1 (toe pick hits the ice)

Take off 2 (whole blade pivots on the ice in the first revolution)

Take off 3 (toe pick is still on the ice and is finally going leave at this point)

Landing 1 (tip of toe pick hits the ice)

Landing 2: (full blade hits the ice)

Landing 3: (full blade pivots on the ice)

The photos are all in order.

My comprehension is that: This is badly Under Rotated. I never call this a fully rotated quad. It should have gotten <.

My untrain eyes can see it clearly (and I have 4 astigmatism each eye), then I even slow the vid to check again and again to make sure.
This is not a quad. 3 turn in air and count as quad, gymnastic athlete will laugh at FS and say "Oh, look, they are cheating quad, oh no, its accepted, its not cheat, it is systematic failure.
The judges trained eyes dont see it or they want to ignore it, even some veteran fans dont see it too (or ignore it)
We will call FS instand FS or junk FS someday if ISU dont fix it

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

:thumbsup: The difference should be reflected in GOEs. So shoma should get credit for his 4F because he did do it and landed on one foot but with 0 GOE. And Yuzu should get 3+ for his quads because they are beautiful and check all the boxes.

It's kind of confusing though because how does Satoko fit into this logic? Personally I think her 3f is probably better in 2012 but the PR is about the same. The amount of PR she does on the 3f is probably worth the full BV in most cases but the lack of both distance and height makes me want to give it a -2 GOE. I think her edge was better before on that particular 2012 jump but she has a nice knee bend and flow but again...way to little distance and height.

Her 3z-3t is better now for certain but I still think it should be scored as a 3z-2t. I'm sorry but in both clips she spins over 270 on the pick on the 3t and over 90 on the landing. That in combination with the lack of distance hurts it. The on the other hand 3z seems fine and I think deserving of the full BV. So I'd like to see it scored as a 3z-2t with -1 or -2 GOE for the lack of height especially on the 3t which barley covers the distance of one blade. I really think it's visible in real time...the lack of height and distance. Mostly though it's the imposibility of her getting quality air position I find to be troubling which is what I'm assessing the negative GOE for. Not sure if I'm being fair or not here? I consider it actually still a bit lenient.

I really am hoping to do a Lil' Z Bet jumpamatron in comparison to Satoko. That seems interesting to me having never studied her jumps.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Take off 2 (whole blade pivots on the ice in the first revolution)

It's interesting because without the motion it's hard to tell but when you see it in motion at this point his weight is already transferring into the air and I really believe he's already left the ice before this point. The ice marks actually look to be a bit behind him in this photo. We're seriously talking a difference of about 25 degrees here.

I do appreciate your taking the time to show these screenshots though. I still disagree if you think it's a jump unworthy of full BV. There are just far too many redeeming qualities to this jump. That's alright if people disagree IMO...it is right on the border and I think people will see it both ways because it isn't crystal clear.

I also think your landing 2 shows that he clearly rotated the jump enough.

 

[Khoai]

It's interesting because without the motion it's hard to tell but when you see it in motion at this point his weight is already transferring into the air and I really believe he's already left the ice before this point. The ice marks actually look to be a bit behind him in this photo. We're seriously talking a difference of about 25 degrees her.
I do appreciate your taking the time to show these screenshots though. I still disagree if you think it's a jump unworthy of full BV. That's alright IMO.

I have replayed it numerous times. At the 3rd take off photo, Mr. Uno's toe pick was still on the ice. The landing is so obvious short too. This "quad" technically had 3 revolutions on air. But I guess I can understand why you're so lenient on the UR, knowing your favorite. Let's call it a day as I guess your standard is a bit too lenient and mine isn't.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

But I guess I can understand why you're so lenient on the UR, knowing your favorite.

I think Julia has only had like one UR and it was probably on a fall .........

http://cdn4.teen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/jennifer-lawrence-what.gif

 

[ysy94]

It's interesting because without the motion it's hard to tell but when you see it in motion at this point his weight is already transferring into the air and I really believe he's already left the ice before this point. The ice marks actually look to be a bit behind him in this photo. We're seriously talking a difference of about 25 degrees here.

I do appreciate your taking the time to show these screenshots though. I still disagree if you think it's a jump unworthy of full BV. There are just far too many redeeming qualities to this jump. That's alright if people disagree IMO...it is right on the border and I think people will see it both ways because it isn't crystal clear.

I also think your landing 2 shows that he clearly rotated the jump enough.

In marathon, the winer is whose chest pass the line first, not leg, not head, it is rule. In FS, the on air time must between when the skate blade take off and land on the ice, no excuse. 3.5 3.75 rotate on air is acceptable as quad at this point because everyone do it (and I think ISU should strict it to 3.75 asap), 3 and 3.25 accepted as quad is the shame

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

In marathon, the winer is whose chest pass the line first, not leg, not head, it is rule. In FS, the on air time must between when the skate blade take off and land on the ice, no excuse. 3.5 3.75 rotate on air is acceptable as quad at this point because everyone do it (and I think ISU should strict it to 3.75 asap), 3 and 3.25 accepted as quad is the shame

Where are these rules you're citing found? I've never seen them in the ISU rulebook. 3.75 is bonkers because no one does that or ever could.

 

[ysy94]

Where are these rules you're citing found? I've never seen them in the ISU rulebook. 3.75 is bonkers because no one does that or ever could.

I said they should strict it too 3.75 asap

 

[Khoai]

In marathon, the winer is whose chest pass the line first, not leg, not head, it is rule. In FS, the on air time must between when the skate blade take off and land on the ice, no excuse. 3.5 3.75 rotate on air is acceptable as quad at this point because everyone do it (and I think ISU should strict it to 3.75 asap), 3 and 3.25 accepted as quad is the shame

Most of them could't do 3.75 in reality, only a very few can do it. I can accept 3.5. But less than that I don't consider it's enough.

 

[ysy94]

Most of them could't do 3.75 in reality, only a very few can do it. I can accept 3.5. But less than that I don't consider it's enough.

And the more funny thing is 2.25-2.5 count as tripple but its off topic here

I hope ISU strict the rule soon, the system now is many hole

 

[ioanna]

I really am hoping to do a Lil' Z Bet jumpamatron in comparison to Satoko. That seems interesting to me having never studied her jumps.

You can do a Lil' Z Bet jumpamatron without the Satoko comparison. There are probably 6 or 7 Satoko jumpamatrons on YouTube, her triples should be scored as doubles, people haven't seen jumps as ugly and cheated as hers in the history of figure skating, we get it. Other than the fact that it will give more reason for some people here to "laugh out loud", at this point it's just beating a dead horse.

 

[OniBan]

I'm curious about Ashley Wagner's Pre rotation actually. someone mentioned that in the this thread somewhere? I know she has never been the most talented jumper (prone to two foot landings and underrotation), but I haven't heard of her PR problem till now. It just makes me wonder if in order to avoid/ combat under rotations, skaters will tend to try and get that rotation as soon as possible when they jump - which then translate to different degrees of pre rotation?

for all its worth whether or not skaters pre rotate it has never stopped me from the enjoying their performance as a whole.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I feel 100% confident that it is fair to give Shoma the BV on this jump in his Long Program

https://youtu.be/MwIOHY_kM4I?t=34s

The reason I think this 4f should count is because while he may rotate over 90 degrees on the toe pick, he isn't using the rotation on the toe to create the jump.

Gurl, it is so clearly more than 1/4 short, 100% confident. Reasons:

1.) His leg is not fully extended until he's nearly 270 degrees into the jump; he's using the toepick to help turn on the ice while he's still getting into the air.

2.) You can see the ice spraying in that direction.

3.) He lands exactly sideways, blade on ice, and the jump obviously isn't taking off directly toward the back board. We can see that clearly, so wherever people want to argue exactly where the toepick left the ice doesn't even matter. A jump that comes down exactly sideways, facing the side board, needs to have taken off towards the back board at the very latest to have sufficient rotation. Since he obviously took off further past that, this is an underrotated jump.

 

[chloepoco]

LOL at all the "experts" on this board who can spot pre/under rotations to the nth degree!

 

[Katie J]

Gurl, it is so clearly more than 1/4 short, 100% confident. Reasons:

1.) His leg is not fully extended until he's nearly 270 degrees into the jump; he's using the toepick to help turn on the ice while he's still getting into the air.

2.) You can see the ice spraying in that direction.

3.) He lands exactly sideways, blade on ice, and the jump obviously isn't taking off directly toward the back board. We can see that clearly, so wherever people want to argue exactly where the toepick left the ice doesn't even matter. A jump that comes down exactly sideways, facing the side board, needs to haven taken off towards the back board at the very latest to have sufficient rotation. Since he obviously took off further past that, this is an underrotated jump.

I agree. Like landing underrotation ISU should do a check on prerotation and set a limit.

Uno prerotates his right hip during take off, it looks like a loop jump take off if you see it from the side ( I can' t link the stand -still pictures, just if someone is interested : You find the same angle of view in following videos: Unos 4F take off in his exhibition 16.4.2016https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDaO22wjeBA at 3.07 min , compare it to Hanyus 4 Lo take off Boston gala practisehttp://kora515.tumblr.com/post/142522338152/chasse-mohawk-three-turn-mohawk-4lo at 0.22 min ). This Uno 4 F 16.4.2016 is less prerotated as his 4F in Spokane competition days later.

Is this prerotation technique banned in ISU technique rule book ? No . Then Uno found the "egg of Columbus" - then it' s an acceptable technik to jump a Flip. Therefore his 4 F was acclaimed by ISU to be the first clean 4 F in competition. I can see also underrotation in this 4 F, but obviously it was negligable for the technical panel.

This prerotating is a bad thing in my opinion, jumps of different categories look more and more alike with this kind of "loop technique", the difference in take off vanishes. A avalance of such jumps is to arise because Unos 4 F was "cleared". ISU should do something, put a limit for takeoff - prerotation, with nowadays computer assisted high slow-motion picture technique it should be simple.

The 4 L of Rippon or Jin is the real thing.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

You can do a Lil' Z Bet jumpamatron without the Satoko comparison. There are probably 6 or 7 Satoko jumpamatrons on YouTube, her triples should be scored as doubles, people haven't seen jumps as ugly and cheated as hers in the history of figure skating, we get it. Other than the fact that it will give more reason for some people here to "laugh out loud", at this point it's just beating a dead horse.

I didn't mean in the same video and I also meant Lil' Bet

The only reason I made the one showing her jumps from 2012-16 in comparison was because of the discussion going on regarding her jumps improvement.

 

[Meoima]

Take look at the BV scale again:

4T 10.3
4S 10.5
4Lo 12.0
4F 12.3
4Lz 13.6
4A 15.0

The main reasons why quads worth so many points is because these jumps are hard, extremely hard to get them done. Yes I know pre-rotation are allowed. So I am not on the fence: "NO PR! PR IS EVIL". It's not that much ha ha.

But at one point there should be a limit to pre-rotation and under-rotation. Look at the scores for triples, it's just from 5 to 6 points for 3F, 3Lz. If we do not have limit, doesn't that basically means some can get away with 3 revolution in the air, and pre-rotation almost 270 degrees in the take off, and under-rotation 90 degree in the landing, and still get like 12-13 points because the tech panel happen to be lenient.

BoP mentioned Kurt Browning's 3F in the old day, and indeed his 3F even had more air time than some of the quads these days. It's 7 points difference in BV between triple and quad with GOE = 0. It is not some tiny 0.7 points. It's a huge gap. It shouldn't be given out so easily.

I hope tech panel will be more careful when they give out some ratification next season.