Pre-rotation

[Krislite]

LOL at all the "experts" on this board who can spot pre/under rotations to the nth degree!

Judges aren't allowed to review jump rotations in slow-mo video. They also have to make snap decisions that if given a second chance to review in more detail, they might change their mind on.

This "board", on the other hand, has a few folks who are pretty competent video editors who can pick apart a jump in super slow-motion, backwards and forwards in time. That makes it pretty easy to see PR and UR, no "expert" required.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Take look at the BV scale again: The main reasons why quads worth so many points is because these jumps are hard, extremely hard to get them done. Yes I know pre-rotation are allowed.

BoP mentioned Kurt Browning's 3F in the old day, and indeed his 3F even had more air time than some of the quads these days. It's 7 points difference in BV between triple and quad with GOE = 0. It is not some tiny 0.7 points. It's a huge gap. It shouldn't be given out so easily.

I hope tech panel will be more careful when they give out some ratification next season.

Yep! I actually think Quads should still be worth slightly more as compared to the other jumps because they are indeed extremely hard...when you aren't cheating them. But the entire scale of values for jumps is still messed up; the most difficult things aren't worth enough and -GOE doesn't have a big enough impact.

 

[hippomoomin]

I don't think this thread is created to bash skaters. I cannot fully appreciated Shoma and Satoko's skating because of their jumps, not because I don't like them then don't like their jumps.

 

[russianbratz]

Some of the shortest female skaters had the biggest jumps--Tonya Harding and Midori Ito in particular. But those two are clearly not the same build as Miyahara.

Are you implying that Tonya Harding was born with muscular legs?

 

[solani]

Are you implying that Tonya Harding was born with muscular legs?

I guess both Harding and Ito were born with natural springiness. They were probably good at sprinting as well. Maybe they would have been talented weight lifters, who knows? Miyahara seems to be more the endurance type athlete, but I wonder how much jumping power training she does/did in the past. Probably not much compared to Harding or Ito. Have you seen that video of Sotnikova when she was a still a kid doing single jumps? ... I think she got about twice the height on her single jumps than Miyahara gets on her triples now.

 

[russianbratz]

Yeah I wonder if forcing Miyahara to jump in a counterclockwise direction damaged her technique. But this idea that certain skaters deserve handicaps because of their "natural" physiological makeup makes no sense to me. Miyahara is an athlete just like anyone else. She's not a paraplegic or an amputee. The basis of athletic endeavor is to train and change your body.

 

[Alexz]

Yeah I wonder if forcing Miyahara to jump in a counterclockwise direction damaged her technique. But this idea that certain skaters deserve handicaps because of their "natural" physiological makeup makes no sense to me. Miyahara is an athlete just like anyone else. She's not a paraplegic or an amputee. The basis of athletic endeavor is to train and change your body.

Harsh, but true.

 

[Tavi...]

Here is a video I made showing the guys and their amount of PR on some different jumps. People seem to always ask about the guys and it seems most of the attention on this stuff is on the ladies.

PreRotation Jumpamatron (Men)
https://youtu.be/MwIOHY_kM4I
Available up to 720p HD

Sam - is that a 4S that Hanyu is doing?

 

[gkelly]

I'm pretty sure there's a very strong correlation between pre-rotation and jump height. It seems coaches and trainers ought to teach skaters to get some height on their jumps before adding more revolutions.

Oh, they do. But everyone is going to max out their jump height at some point -- not all at the same point. Just because skater A doesn't jump as high as skater B doesn't mean that A hasn't put more time into on-ice technical jump training and off-ice muscle development to jump as high as s/he possibly can.

I think natural body shape and upper body development/strength have as much to do with jump height and rotational speed as leg strength does.

This is why men tend to jump better than women or than boys, whereas adolescent girls often jump better than mature women.

Also there's only so much a person can do to change their natural muscle fiber composition of fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch fibers.


BTW, delaying rotation on takeoff is a positive GOE bullet point that is only available to skaters who are able to jump higher than they need to get around on whatever jump they're attempting.

 

[xibsuarz]

Sam - is that a 4S that Hanyu is doing?

The first one's a 4S, the second one's a 4T3T.

 

[Tavi...]

The first one's a 4S, the second one's a 4T3T.

Thanks! I should have specified that I meant the first one - thanks for confirming. One reason I asked is because I thought I read somewhere (here?) that a certain amount of prerotation is normal (eg good technique) for a toe jump but not for an edge jump like a salchow. Is that correct?

 

[gruesome]

Thanks! I should have specified that I meant the first one - thanks for confirming. One reason I asked is because I thought I read somewhere (here?) that a certain amount of prerotation is normal (eg good technique) for a toe jump but not for an edge jump like a salchow. Is that correct?

Excuse me, but are you implying that Hanyu cheated on the 4S?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Thanks! I should have specified that I meant the first one - thanks for confirming. One reason I asked is because I thought I read somewhere (here?) that a certain amount of prerotation is normal (eg good technique) for a toe jump but not for an edge jump like a salchow. Is that correct?

Salchows have a good amount of pre rotation. The video had three of them. Hanyu and Max with a 4s each and Jason tagged one on at the end of his combo. In my opinion all of the Salchows were done correctly. The skater does takeoff similar to an Axel IMO.

 

[Tavi...]

Excuse me, but are you implying that Hanyu cheated on the 4S?

Not at all. I believe someone said there was no prerotation although I don't know enough to confirm it.

ETA but Sam says I'm wrong and that you do prerotate edge jumps.

 

[xibsuarz]

Thanks! I should have specified that I meant the first one - thanks for confirming. One reason I asked is because I thought I read somewhere (here?) that a certain amount of prerotation is normal (eg good technique) for a toe jump but not for an edge jump like a salchow. Is that correct?

All jumps require certain pre rotation, whether it's an edge jump or a toe pick jump. Though, depending on the jump, the amount of pre rotation can vary. For example, the Lutz is the jump I see less prerotation in, and I see less prerotation in triples than in quads, in general. But well, I'm quite inexperienced on this matter

 

[Tavi...]

Salchows have a good amount of pre rotation. The video had three of them. Hanyu and Max with a 4s each and Jason tagged one on at the end of his combo. In my opinion all of the Salchows were done correctly. The skater does takeoff similar to an Axel IMO.

Thank you Sam.

By the way I just joined ICoachskating and the guy who runs it (a coach who does a lot of dartfish I think) analyzed Jason's quad in quite a bit of detail - I think it was the one Coach Vincent posted last fall. I mention it here only because he specifically identified the number of rotations he did in the air - 3-1/4 - and said that although the video quality wasn't great, based on where he thought the landing was he would call the jump clean.

Im still trying to digest that and have no idea what it means in terms of this discussion.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Im still trying to digest that and have no idea what it means in terms of this discussion.

Every little bit most defenitly helps the discussion. Joining Icoachskating seems like a very cool thing to do :yes:.

 

[Krislite]

Are you implying that Tonya Harding was born with muscular legs?

Are you seriously denying the role of genes in musculo-skeletal development? If so, how do you explain the physical differences between men and women? Or for matter, that variance in physique you see within each gender? It's obvious that some women have stronger build and musculature than other women. The same is true for men.

Of course, this doesn't explain all the difference between Miyahara and say, Harding, but it's part of it. I would in fact argue that most of Miyahara's fault is technique, not physique. She could have learned to jump better, but she never did. But I won't deny that her petite and skinny frame might be factor as well. She reminds me of Lipinski, who also had practically no height on her jumps and had excessive pre-rotation (though not as bad).

 

[solani]

She reminds me of Lipinski, who also had practically no height on her jumps and had excessive pre-rotation (though not as bad).

I disagree, Lipinski's jumps didn't have excessive pre-rotation and she definitely jumped higher than Miyahara. I normally don't like those skaters who rotate extremely fast in the air, but somehow Lipinski's jumps are the exception for me, her jumps were beautiful. Don't confuse her with Sarah Hughes!

 

[Morb]

Hello, guys)

Poor take-off -1 to -2
/
Cheated take-off
A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump.
The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences).

Medvedeva 3T (720 degrees in air) - 1, 2, 3.