Putin's anti-gay laws and Sochi Olympics

[Tonichelle]

I was going to give "my wife and Peggy Fleming" as an example, but since my wonderful wife reads this board sometimes...

Well I'm still super single, so I can crush without getting crushed

 

[Bluebonnet]

A bigot is somebody who has intolerant opinions or prejudices, especially towards the members of a particular group (such as LGBT people). Things like calling LGBT lifestyles "messy" or characterizing them as moral-less/animalistic is bigotry. Comparing gay relationships with incestuous/polygamous/pedophilic/bestial ones is offensive. Saying things like gays target children to turn them gay is unsubstantiated, appalling, and because it is not actually the case (unless you'd like to provide sources that prove otherwise), it is ignorant.

Hence characterizing your statements as ignorance and bigotry isn't me being antagonistic so much as me describing your statements for what they are. You are entitled to your opinion, but if it is an opinion of intolerance that is inaccurate or unsubstantiated, then it is a bigoted, ignorant opinion no matter how you slice it. I've also made attempts not to directly call you a bigot (although you could probably guess what I actually think) and ensure that I'm calling your statements bigoted.

So you just characterized those as such. But I think you are truly intolerant to other culture and religion or even people holding different opinions. I believe that I am far from ignorant. You do not hold knowledge more than I do in order to call me ignorant. I recognize that there are decent, truly gentleman like gay people. I respect them tremendously. Brian Orser is one of them.

Although, you are no better than me on any of such regards, because I am a heterosexual who do not support your cause, so I am characterized as such, rightfully to all.



ETA:

Kovalchuk supports Russian anti-gay law; Crosby, other stars opposed

Looks like the Russians think differently:

Here’s a shocker: another high-profile Russian athlete has come out in support of their country’s controversial anti-gay propaganda law.

“I agree, of course,” said Ilya Kovalchuk. “I’m Russian and we all have to respect that. It’s personal and, like I said, it’s a free world, but that’s our line. That’s our country, so everybody has to respect that.”

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So you just characterized those as such. But I think you are truly intolerant to other culture and religion or even people holding different opinions. I believe that I am far from ignorant. You do not hold knowledge more than I do in order to call me ignorant. I recognize that there are decent, truly gentleman like gay people. I respect them tremendously. Brian Orser is one of them.

Although, you are no better than me on any of such regards, because I am a heterosexual who do not support your cause, so I am characterized as such, rightfully to all.

Kovalchuk supports Russian anti-gay law; Crosby, other stars opposed

Looks like the Russians think differently:

Kovalchuk said it in "It's a free world, but that's our line". This essentially means, other countries are free to ascribe human rights to everybody, but not Russia. And he is wrong, you don't have to "respect that". If a country like Uganda kills people for being gay, everybody does not have to "respect that" country's laws. If the Middle East shoots women who try to go to school, other countries do not have to "respect that". If there are laws that disenfranchise people for loving who they love and being who they are, other countries do not have to "respect that".

In no way am I suggesting I'm more knowledgeable than you, in general. But when you say things that are false and without evidence to substantiate it, I will call you out on it (as will other posters here). If you're going to make sweeping statements like when you described how you think gay people urge kids to come out, and then use gay stereotypes like soft voices and holding a fork a certain way, that misappropriates gay people - regardless of whether or not it's your opinion. Again, there's a difference between respecting somebody's right to an opinion, and respecting the opinion itself, and if I don't agree with your opinion I will argue against it.

Here's also a thought: if Russia is so worried about gay propaganda influencing their children, why aren't they conducting more rallies for straight propaganda where straight people kiss and wave "Straight is normal" signs to 'ensure' their children will become straight? Why is there a focus to remove gay propaganda and no efforts to push straight propaganda?

 

[Bluebonnet]

Kovalchuk said it in "It's a free world, but that's our line". This essentially means, other countries are free to ascribe human rights to everybody, but not Russia. And he is wrong, you don't have to "respect that". If a country like Uganda kills people for being gay, everybody does not have to "respect that" country's laws. If the Middle East shoots women who try to go to school, other countries do not have to "respect that". If there are laws that disenfranchise people for loving who they love and being who they are, other countries do not have to "respect that".

If a country like US which has gun crimes every single day, people die from gun crimes every single day, you don't have to respect for it's gun laws. Right? Does that make more sense to you? So why don't you rally internationally and have international media frenzy to oust US gun laws?! Nope, that's US internal affair and needs American themselves to sort this thing out. Isn't that funny how different it is?

In no way am I suggesting I'm more knowledgeable than you, in general. But when you say things that are false and without evidence to substantiate it, I will call you out on it (as will other posters here).

Good, it's only fair if I do the same.

If you're going to make sweeping statements like when you described how you think gay people urge kids to come out, and then use gay stereotypes like soft voices and holding a fork a certain way, that misappropriates gay people - regardless of whether or not it's your opinion. Again, there's a difference between respecting somebody's right to an opinion, and respecting the opinion itself, and if I don't agree with your opinion I will argue against it.

That was not my perspective. That was the general stereotypical views in North America. What I said was true on forcing people to admitting and coming out or just humiliating them, whether or not you accept it.

Here's also a thought: if Russia is so worried about gay propaganda influencing their children, why aren't they conducting more rallies for straight propaganda where straight people kiss and wave "Straight is normal" signs to 'ensure' their children will become straight? Why is there a focus to remove gay propaganda and no efforts to push straight propaganda?

That's truly laughable. How does human being exist and continue generation after generation for about 200,000 years on earth? God created human beings that way whether you like it or not.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That's truly laughable. How does human being exist and continue generation after generation for about 200,000 years on earth? God created human beings that way whether you like it or not.

That statement is contradictory -- you can't say God created humans (a number which most theologians believe to be anywhere from 4,000-10,000 years ago) AND that humans have been around for 200,000 years. Either choose what religion tells you to believe or choose what scientific evidence shows to be the case.

My point was pointing out the absurd "purpose" of these laws to protect children..... if Russia is so afraid of the influence of gay propaganda and suppressing it so kids don't turn out gay, then shouldn't they also be spreading straight propaganda to ensure that they DO turn out straight? I mean, it's not like they would only marginalize LGBT people to protect children, and not fully commit to protecting children by spreading straight propaganda....:sarcasm:

If a country like US which has gun crimes every single day, people die from gun crimes every single day, you don't have to respect for it's gun laws. Does that make more sense to you? So why don't you rally internationally and have international media frenzy to oust US gun laws?! Nope, that's US internal affair and needs American themselves to sort this thing out. Isn't that funny how different it is?

There is an international effort for gun control in the US. Gun control in the US also affects the arms trade globally.

You should know that just because a map sections off countries geographically it doesn't section them off politically or economically or socially.

Just because Russia is a different country and we're not living there doesn't mean that there aren't issues that indirectly affect us, or issues that its own citizens have to deal with for which we can assist. Imagine if we said poverty and hunger is an "internal Somalian affair", or woman's rights is an "internal Saudi Arabian affair" and they need to sort themselves out. Imagine if people said in Nazi Germany that the anti-Semitism and ensuing mass genocide was an "internal German affair" and it was not our place to get involved.

 

[Tonichelle]

Imagine if people said in Nazi Germany that the anti-Semitism and ensuing mass genocide was an "internal German affair" and it was not our place to get involved.

Actually that was the US's original feeling. We were just shy of being an isolation country. Maybe if the World HAD been paying attention and not so anti-Semitic itself the Holocaust would have been prevented.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Actually that was the US's original feeling. We were just shy of being an isolation country. Maybe if the World HAD been paying attention and not so anti-Semitic itself the Holocaust would have been prevented.

Fortunately for Hitler, and unfortunately for Putin, there's now this thing called the Internet. Also, welcoming the whole world into your backyard isn't exactly the best time to exact laws that discriminate against a great number of people.

People are certainly paying attention now, and will not let Russia do its own thing and simply stay silent until it's too late.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Russian Jews outraged over gay propaganda law comparisons to Holocaust

 

[Tonichelle]

Fortunately for Hitler, and unfortunately for Putin, there's now this thing called the Internet. Also, welcoming the whole world into your backyard isn't exactly the best time to exact laws that discriminate against a great number of people.

People are certainly paying attention now, and will not let Russia do its own thing and simply stay silent until it's too late.

Hitler also invited the world into his playground and people were seemingly oblivious to what he had going on elsewhere. And a lot of those who did know were able to turn a blindseye for whatever reason.

 

[Tonichelle]

Russian Jews outraged over gay propaganda law comparisons to Holocaust

I agree it's not the same thing.

 

[Olympia]

I'm always leery of comparing anything else to Hitler. The closest I think we've come to him in modern times is someone like Pol Pot of Cambodia, who murdered about 40% of the country's population, or the genocide in Rwanda in the 1990s. It's an especially prickly comparison to bring up for Russia. They lost an unbelievable number of people in World War II, something like 20 million. No other country or ethnic group came close, and I say that as a Jew who lost family members in the Holocaust.

This current situation is terrible enough on its own. No need to use another loaded name to attract attention for it. One question I continue to have is that if an outsider is arrested on these charges, he will not be deported immediately. No, he will be held for fifteen (fourteen?) days and then deported. What will happen to him in the holding cell during that time? Why is that a component of the law if the Russians just want to get rid of the man's "bad influence"? What extra protection do those two weeks of imprisonment give the children of Russia?

 

[dorispulaski]

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/september/naimark-stalin-genocide-092310.html

Old timers like myself may fear that Putin might be wanting to go back to the ways of Stalin.

 

[Tonichelle]

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/september/naimark-stalin-genocide-092310.html

Old timers like myself may fear that Putin might be wanting to go back to the ways of Stalin.

I was thinking more along this line... same time period, different approach... Russia during WW2 just got smart and allied with the right allies, they were just as cruel to those different from their way of thinking... just hadn't figured out how to get rid of them all yet.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Russian Jews outraged over gay propaganda law comparisons to Holocaust

"On the global scale the value system is shifting, and in this regard Russia is a stronghold of common sense, morality and piety.”

A stronghold?!? Hey, why not give them the Nobel Peace Prize while we're at it!

The comparison is the discrimination based on sexual orientation that leads to persecution. I've never said it's the same thing as the Holocaust, but the policies are eerily similar to those made by Nazis. The turning a blind eye at violence directed towards a minority is precisely what happened in Germany. This is an attempt to further increase animosity towards the LGBT community, as well as shut the mouths of their would-be supporters. When a minority can't fight for itself and anyone who fights for it can be fined or arrested themselves, that's almost carte blanche for more terrible things. But no, Russia wouldn't do that... they're a stronghold of common sense, after all! :sarcasm:

 

[Olympia]

I was thinking more along this line... same time period, different approach... Russia during WW2 just got smart and allied with the right allies, they were just as cruel to those different from their way of thinking... just hadn't figured out how to get rid of them all yet.

A friend of mine from Eastern Europe has worried about Putin's link to Stalin for years.

 

[Tonichelle]

A stronghold?!? Hey, why not give them the Nobel Peace Prize while we're at it!

US Presidents have gotten one for far less.

 

[gmyers]

Putin Stalin? Well he did grab off two chunks of Stalin's Birthplace!! LOL Joke. No I don't think Stalin at all! Even with the anti propaganda law! He actually does not have the power.

 

[dorispulaski]

Putin Stalin? Well he did grab off two chunks of Stalin's Birthplace!! LOL Joke. No I don't think Stalin at all! Even with the anti propaganda law! He actually does not have the power.

That would be the hope.

And I'll take all the hope I can get.

 

[Olympia]

Since we're talking about protecting children, I will bring up something I read about in this country. There are groups of people, some rather well educated, who are reluctant to allow their children to be vaccinated against a host of diseases, including measles and whooping cough. Some of these groups believe a theory that says that vaccines can trigger autism, a theory that has been debunked. One group in Texas, a megachurch, discouraged vaccinations because they believe in faith healing. Unfortunately, they have just experienced a measles epidemic. People who don't remember what these illnesses were like think that they are not really harmful, but measles for example can cause long-lasting disabilities.

As the percentage of immunized people in a population goes down, herd immunity is threatened. This herd immunity protects people who really can't get vaccinated: infants, for example, or people with cancer who have depressed immune systems. As a result, some infants have gotten whooping cough, which can be fatal in very young children.

The one that terrifies me is polio. I once had a chat with a co-worker, someone I generally like, who told me that she tended to distrust doctors and wouldn't vaccinate any children she had. (Fortunately she seems old enough so that it's unlikely that she will be starting a family.) I said, "But surely, you'd get your kids vaccinated for polio." She said airily that she didn't automatically believe "the medical establishment" about such things. I'm normally a pretty even-tempered person in arguments, and I had to chew on my lips to avoid screaming at her. I think it would have ended our friendship, and since she is old enough so the discussion was merely theoretical, I was able to restrain myself.

I'm old enough to know people not much older than I who actually had polio as kids. There was an epidemic almost every summer. In a major epidemic in the 1940s, there might be 40,000 cases in the United States. Polio could cripple a child--one leg, both legs, the whole body. It's been almost wiped out thanks to the Salk and Sabin vaccines, but there are still pockets of it, mainly in parts of Nigeria, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. These days, with world travel a fact of life, anyone could be exposed to the virus. For various reasons, including distrust of outsiders in Pakistan, distrust of Western medicine in Nigeria, and distrust of everything in Afghanistan, it's been difficult to achieve universal immunization against polio. And then there are the people in the U.S. (and maybe elsewhere in the West? Or are we Americans the only deluded souls on this issue?) who think they live in their own little world instead of the one whose air we all share.

When I think of protecting our children, this is the kind of thing that keeps me awake at night.

 

[Tonichelle]

Vaccines can be helpful but they can also be harmful. Overdosing, or dosing too soon happens far too often. And you're putting a whole lot more than a "dead bug" in your system. I support any parent to make an informed decision in advocating for their child's health, even if it isn't acceptable by the mainstream.