Race to the 2019-20 ISU championships minimum TES

IndiaP12

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Bummed for Julia Lang who has been trying to get the SP TES for worlds in like 3 competitions this year and has been a few away each time. She has earned the FS TES easily several times, but it's just the SP she struggles with. And a shame because last year she got 33 TES in her SP but at junior worlds so she can't use ot for senior (She could've gone to junior worlds, but she told me she decided to move to senior and not go back). But that's ok because she is really young and she has many more opportunities in the next few years to go.
Side note: it's actually because she now, for a reason I don't understand, does 3F+2T instead of 3T+3T in the SP now. Like what? She did toe toe all of last season. I reckon if she still did it she'd have the TES especially since she has a triple lutz now. She saw me talking about it and replied saying her 3F+3T was too inconsistent but I think she misunderstood because I was talking about 3T+3T
 

TT_Fin

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I must thank you for this, Nirti, too. This thread has brought a new target of excitement. It was also easy to understand for example Niki's reaction to her scores, because of this. Now we can concentrate to competitions. Maybe some skaters get their scores for next year in some spring competitions, if the rules will be the same.
 

DenissVFan

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One thing to add: they didn't even eliminate currently the weakest of the previously qualified skaters. At Euros Dasa beat several skaters who'll compete at Worlds on TES and / or overall. I'm absolutely not saying that they don't deserve to go because I believe that they most certainly do, but just by looking at this season she might have beaten them again had she qualified.

Next season ISU should say upfront that they'll only take up to 36 skaters. It's not that hard.
 

Nirti

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I think they should completely review the way of qualification to ISU championships.
They don't want more than 36 skaters at Worlds? Why not, it has sense. With 36 skaters quite all have a chance to make the final. The more skaters you add, the more skaters are sure not to make the cut. With 34 dancers, 14 will be eliminated after the RD, and we already know some of their names. So 36 ladies, 36 men, 30 dancers and 24 pairs would be ok I think.

But then qualification system will have to be different, and it may be a good idea to change this archaic system of calculating "next year's spots"...
 

DenissVFan

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Had Loena been healthy, there would have been 37 entries. I wonder if they would have done somethig about it (I'm not sure they can do it this late but who knows).
 

NanaPat

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One thing to add: they didn't even eliminate currently the weakest of the previously qualified skaters. At Euros Dasa beat several skaters who'll compete at Worlds on TES and / or overall. I'm absolutely not saying that they don't deserve to go because I believe that they most certainly do, but just by looking at this season she might have beaten them again had she qualified.

Next season ISU should say upfront that they'll only take up to 36 skaters. It's not that hard.

I think that would be worse than it is now. A lot of skaters wouldn't know until the last minute whether they'd qualified, and many would have to go through what Dasa (and to a lesser extent Emily Bausbeck of Canada) went through, with multiple competitions. And even those who were already in the top 36 (excluding skaters who couldn't go because of country quotas), but low, would have to compete to try to improve their TESs in case someone else got a new score and edged them out.
 

4everchan

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if the ISU wants less skaters, especially in the woman field, which is by far the one with the most competitors, they need to
1) limit the number of entries per country to 2 skaters not 3.... already the top 10 is built with 3 nations... which is not good for the internationalization of the sport
2) have qualifying events that are fair and square... during the current season.... not the previous season... it could be during challengers, gp or even europeans/4cc... this would also mean that it is international judges picking up skaters for worlds.. not national federation
3)for women, they could raise the age to 16... it would keep some talent into the junior WC

i am not saying i agree with all of what i wrote up there... but there are ways to make sure that there are not 57 entries, with 20 weak entries making it to worlds... a 36 strong list can be achieved and it doesn't have to be made of skaters from 2 or 3 nations.... actually, what would be awesome is if there were regional qualifying events where we could see for instance 12 japanese skaters + chinese, koreans etc fighting for the top 12 spots to go to worlds, with only 2 maximum by country... those who complain that we do not see all the best skaters at worlds would see them competing internationally, at least... with a chance to qualify fairly.
 

DenissVFan

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I think that would be worse than it is now. A lot of skaters wouldn't know until the last minute whether they'd qualified, and many would have to go through what Dasa (and to a lesser extent Emily Bausbeck of Canada) went through, with multiple competitions. And even those who were already in the top 36 (excluding skaters who couldn't go because of country quotas), but low, would have to compete to try to improve their TESs in case someone else got a new score and edged them out.

But the thing is if ISU implicitly wants to have up to 36 skaters, they may raise the TES mid-season again, so these skaters may have to do these competitions anyway just in case. At least when you know upfront that you may end up being ~0.5 pt short, you know that you should sign up for some additional competitions, while this whole situation took Dasa by surprise (admittedly, the possibility of the minimum TES being raised was there, but skaters didn't think it was likely to happen) and she relied on the good will of the organisers to participate in these competitions as a late entry.
 

NanaPat

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But the thing is if ISU implicitly wants to have up to 36 skaters, they may raise the TES mid-season again, so these skaters may have to do these competitions anyway just in case. At least when you know upfront that you may end up being ~0.5 pt short, you know that you should sign up for some additional competitions, while this whole situation took Dasa by surprise (admittedly, the possibility of the minimum TES being raised was there, but skaters didn't think it was likely to happen) and she relied on the good will of the organisers to participate in these competitions as a late entry.

But if it's just 36 skaters, then the qualifying TES is a moving target. For the SP is it 30? 31? 32? 33? 31.59? Nobody would know until the very end of the qualifying process. It would be hard to even figure out what it is at any given time. You could look at this list

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/tes/stsljustsen.htm

and sort it on TES order, but then you'd have to eliminate skaters who are skaters who are in the top 36 but are not allowed at worlds because of the country quotas. And you'd have to do it for both SP and LP. What about the skaters who are in the top 36 for SP but not FP, or vice versa? Do you have to be top 36 for both? In that case, there could well be less than 36 skaters who qualify. If it's less than 36, do you choose 6 more, and how do you choose them?

"Top 36" is a simple criteria, in principal, but not easy to implement, and implementing it means MORE uncertainty, with almost-continuously changing cut-offs. If changing them once in a year is bad because it creates uncertainly, changing them frequently would be worse, as it would cause even more uncertainty.

One thing the ISU could to is limit the amount that it can raise scores "on the fly". For instance, if they limited the increase to 1 in the SP and 2 in the FP, and the announced SP score was 30, then skaters would know from the get-go that to be absolutely safe, they need 31.
 

DenissVFan

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But if it's just 36 skaters, then the qualifying TES is a moving target. For the SP is it 30? 31? 32? 33? 31.59? Nobody would know until the very end of the qualifying process. It would be hard to even figure out what it is at any given time. You could look at this list

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/tes/stsljustsen.htm

and sort it on TES order, but then you'd have to eliminate skaters who are skaters who are in the top 36 but are not allowed at worlds because of the country quotas. And you'd have to do it for both SP and LP. What about the skaters who are in the top 36 for SP but not FP, or vice versa? Do you have to be top 36 for both? In that case, there could well be less than 36 skaters who qualify. If it's less than 36, do you choose 6 more, and how do you choose them?

"Top 36" is a simple criteria, in principal, but not easy to implement, and implementing it means MORE uncertainty, with almost-continuously changing cut-offs. If changing them once in a year is bad because it creates uncertainly, changing them frequently would be worse, as it would cause even more uncertainty.

One thing the ISU could to is limit the amount that it can raise scores "on the fly". For instance, if they limited the increase to 1 in the SP and 2 in the FP, and the announced SP score was 30, then skaters would know from the get-go that to be absolutely safe, they need 31.

I understand but ISU seems to aim for 36 entries (without actually saying it), so I'd just prefer if skaters knew in advance of time how uncertain their situation was. Limiting the possible increase looks like a good idea, but I can't help but wonder what would happen if they raised the minimum TES before the start of the season but somehow 40 competitors got it before Europeans / 4CC. Would they raise it again?
 

Ice Dance

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I understand but ISU seems to aim for 36 entries (without actually saying it), so I'd just prefer if skaters knew in advance of time how uncertain their situation was. Limiting the possible increase looks like a good idea, but I can't help but wonder what would happen if they raised the minimum TES before the start of the season but somehow 40 competitors got it before Europeans / 4CC. Would they raise it again?

Yes. And if too few athletes met it, they would lower it. Can work both ways.

But the odds are good that they will raise the TES more between the seasons instead. As that plays better politically than raising it mid-season.
 

Ziotic

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Maybe do top 36 with highest combined TES. Then say max of 3 per country? That way it’s always 36, no country has more then 3. It would also help in cases like Japan in 2018 where they probably should get to send more then two based on this seasons results but don’t get to because of what happened the previous year.

It also makes it way less political from a federation overstep.
 

Harriet

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Maybe do top 36 with highest combined TES. Then say max of 3 per country? That way it’s always 36, no country has more then 3. It would also help in cases like Japan in 2018 where they probably should get to send more then two based on this seasons results but don’t get to because of what happened the previous year.

It also makes it way less political from a federation overstep.

Except that the ISU also has a self-proclaimed goal of expanding participation in the sport, including championship events and especially in non-traditional skating countries. If they're going to commit to that goal but also want to restrict the number of entries in singles events at Worlds, they're going to need to limit the number of places any given country can have at Worlds to two.

Sometimes the ultra-privileged need to give a little of their great wealth up so that the non-privileged can have what they need to survive. Like taxes. Call it the skating equivalent.
 

Lana05

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Most people who come to watch championship aren't strong figure skating fans. And don't sit on such forums. They cheer only for skater from their country and another top skater which they like. There is no reason for weak skaters for them and for me too. Here we don't even broadcast them at all if there is no Russian skaters and it's same in Kazakhstan, Belarus and other countries.
Plus, MONEY.
If there are more competitors there fewer money for each. So top 5 get less because of extra costs for hotes, traveling, food, training time for both skaters and trainers who come with them.
It's not fair to give money from elite athlets who attract audiance and got money fair to weaker ones.
 

Nirti

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Why not a system based on the one used for Olympics qualification?
Some skaters are qualified from last year's Worlds, some other during several qualifying tournaments (not too many of course) where the judges, especially the technical panel, apply the same rules (for example being strict about underrotated jumps) in order that the scores are more or less comparable (and not what we see even during Challengers where some scores are just jokes, like the Belarussian one this fall)
So we can have a definitive list 2 months before the event (or less), with an alternates list in order not to have finally less than 36 entries.

These are just some ideas, but what I'm sure is that the current system is widely not the best :scratch2:
 

TT_Fin

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Why not a system based on the one used for Olympics qualification?
Some skaters are qualified from last year's Worlds, some other during several qualifying tournaments (not too many of course) where the judges, especially the technical panel, apply the same rules (for example being strict about underrotated jumps) in order that the scores are more or less comparable (and not what we see even during Challengers where some scores are just jokes, like the Belarussian one this fall)
So we can have a definitive list 2 months before the event (or less), with an alternates list in order not to have finally less than 36 entries.

These are just some ideas, but what I'm sure is that the current system is widely not the best :scratch2:

Could they use previous worlds results and Challenger series for qualification? Sometimes it would fair also for the skaters, if the international results were more important than the national ones.
 
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