Raise The Senior Ladies Age To 17 Please!

[lariko]

Say hello to Aljona Savchenko.

Who had a choice. Restrictions take away that choice from the individual athletes and only allow one type of career. And the longer they will have to wait, the more dreams will be broken, the more grueling the selection, the higher the attrition prior to any reasonable chance of success. The upper limit of competitive age in women skating is not going to increase automatically because the lower is bumped up by two years...

 

[Alegria]

Who had a choice. Restrictions take away that choice from the individual athletes and only allow one type of career.

Wait a minute, who restricted them from competing after 17? It was ISU who restricted Medvedeva and Zagitova from competing this season?
It was also a choice. Their choice.

 

[nussnacker]

But if you look at the build of Kamila for example - she’s significantly taller than a fair few ‘adult’ skaters and is also more ‘developed’. If you look at Anna at 15 v’s Kamila there is no comparison. So why should someone like KV who has physically matured be allowed to skate senior when she no longer has the pre pubescent advantage?

That’s another thing. We actually are witnessing that new senior phenom boys trio from Japan, which are super successful thus far - Yuma, Shun and Kazuki - are all quite small. I would say a bit unusually small, even Shoma looks big in comparison. However, no argument can be raised about age, this is just their natural body.

As sport evolves, it will keep attracting athletes who are more physically fit to succeed in it.

 

[nussnacker]

Wait a minute, who restricted them from competing after 17? It was ISU who restricted Medvedeva and Zagitova from competing this season?
It was also a choice. Their choice.

Lariko probably means the 3 per country limit rule. If it wasn’t for that rule, then perhaps we would’ve seen longer careers. It’s hard to stay motivated when there’s very little chance to make it to bigger competitions.

 

[lariko]

That’s another thing. We actually are witnessing that new senior phenom boys trio from Japan, which are super successful thus far - Yuma, Shun and Kazuki - are all quite small. I would say a bit unusually small, even Shoma looks big in comparison. However, no argument can be raised about age, this is just their natural body.

As sport evolves, it will keep attracting athletes who are more physically fit to succeed in it.

Yup. Nobody ever complains about male skaters' age or height or weight or slimness or asks them to show their credentials as a man vs boy.

 

[Alegria]

Lariko probably means the 3 per country limit rule. If it wasn’t for that rule, then perhaps we would’ve seen longer careers. It’s hard to stay motivated when there’s very little chance to make it to bigger competitions.

And what about GP?

 

[lariko]

Wait a minute, who restricted them from competing after 17? It was ISU who restricted Medvedeva and Zagitova from competing this season?
It was also a choice. Their choice.

They were able to compete at their peak performance AND they still have a choice to take time off and return like Tuktamysheva did.

 

[nussnacker]

And what about GP?

There are also very limited amount of spots there. Regardless, I think athletes like Evgenia and Alina, would be way more motivated to compete, if they had something more than GP stages as an option. Competing and training, knowing it’s likely only 2-3 competitions in the first half of the season and then you don’t have anything - that’s difficult.

 

[Alegria]

They were able to compete at their peak performance AND they still have a choice to take time off and return like Tuktamysheva did.

Good joke.

 

[cto888]

Lastly and most importantly, and I know some on this forum dismiss this utterly saying an Olympic gold is worth the price, I am concerned about the toll on young figure skater's bodies. I have seen a LOT of talk about this both berating and dismissing it, but I would love to be directed to some studies on it. At the moment it really concerns me but I don't really know enough. People have said if you change the age limit, skaters will still do the jumps etc in juniors, but if there are really genuine problems from this than it is possible to legislate what can be done in juniors. Also if the goal is to stay in long enough to get the Olympic medal (which is what most are working for) than it may not be worth the risk to the body in juniors.

I can't remember any top men/pairs/dance skaters, who retired after few seasons in adults just because they won everything and lost interest.
But when when it comes to girls... So maybe they are not really interested in figure skating and only wanted medals? If so, why not try to get medals at 17 or older?

I think there is an argument to be made considering this two points. Even young skaters who win at other disciplines continue to compete. The ladies retire because they injure themselves. I do not view it as a debate around technical complexity but ensuring the safety of kids.

 

[lariko]

And what about GP?

GP is filled from the top 20ish athletes where the ranking is determined by JGP, Challenger and Major Championships. Anyone entering from juniors have their initial boost if they were successful in juniors. But, say, they get one senior GP event, do okay in Challengers, but do not make Eu/4CC/WC (which spots are taken by the established skaters). What happens then? They drop below 20. They are no longer in GP. If their entry into seniors is delayed, and they do not have a wiggle room to sit it out in juniors, that's precarious. Like, in men, Danielyan and Mozalev are basically out for next year's GP in all probability.

 

[Alegria]

There are also very limited amount of spots there. Regardless, I think athletes like Evgenia and Alina, would be way more motivated to compete, if they had something more than GP stages as an option. Competing and training, knowing it’s likely only 2-3 competitions in the first half of the season and then you don’t have anything - that’s difficult.

Exactly! Girls just want to be first just because. And they don't like figure skating enough if whey want to quit when it's difficult.
I still remember when Medvedeva jumped illigal combo in her LP just for fun. I thought to myself, that she would get her boomerang very soon. And she got it and it was hard.

 

[AxelLover]

In a way it would totally make sense in any sport to go from juniors to seniors at the age of 18, because that's the age when you legally become an adult (in most countries).

 

[Tutto]

They have the same age restrictions as men’s skating, yet there is no objections to men competing in seniors at 15.

What if they don’t want 7 seasons after training from age 4 to age 17 to compete in seniors. That’s 13 years of gruelling training and from 18 or so onward for women this training will be more and more uphill struggle because of the patterns of weight gain and childbearing concerns. It will create an artificial sitting out period from about 17 to 20 when women struggle with hormonal issues in general. Do they need to foreswear personal lives for this long too? Risk their ability to bear children at all, because they would stay at a Body Fat percentage below nominal for this long?

You can’t give fair chance to everyone if turnaround at the top is slow, no matter what age the peak occurs.

They do not seem to have this problem in Artistic Gymnastics

 

[StitchMonkey]

I don't like the idea or raising the age, but i think in practice, it would be a good idea.

A lot is said about growing bodies, and risk of injury, etc. But little about how much of a choice in the matter the skaters has.

Much of my feeling is sadly inspired by this quote from Alysa's dad https://twitter.com/olyphil/status/1462804014102458370

"I felt Alysa needed more intensity in her training and the coaches and I were not on the same page as to how the training should be"

Sure daddy is paying the bills, but i feel like at this level (of risk and otherwise) the skater should have a lot of say in "intensity" as it is their body. I now have to ask if Alysa's quads are by choice.

So the issue i am starting to have is, one of agency when you are dealing with children. It is one thing for an adult to think it is worth it to risk life long hip issues for an Olympic medal, it is another for a parent to make that choice for them. And it is not always easy or even possible to say no to mom/dad.

This is not anything new, and should not be seen as a dig at Arthur Liu, just this was the light-bulb for me. I remember Jenny Kirk talking about her mom making her skate with an injured hip... and that likely was under 6.0, Sadly this sport (and others) does not always have the best track record of looking out for kids. So maybe we need to accept that fact and move in a direction that at least means it is legal adults making these decisions for themselves about their own bodies and future.

And as some will say it, yes some skaters are young and think they are invincible and will push too much too soon as they don't fully understand the idea of chronic pain. Yes adults need to temper that. But take the Olympics away, and you are making that job easier.

So yes, I do think i want to raise the age, because i want people to be able to legally consent to competing on this level with all that that entails. In an ideal world, this would not be the case, but sadly i think we have some growing to do in order to get there.

 

[[email protected]]

The only one in the current ladies (sorry women) field who will be punished by raising the age limit is Sofia Akatyeva. And she is already punished enough as her date of birth is very unfortunate so that she even cannot enter this year Rusnats. So, all this rhetoric, all these arguments is just to prevent one truly outstanding skater to compete? You guys are ridiculous, sorry. And I hope it will never happen. And the key reason for my standpoint is that "Eteri's crops" is already up and running. And Anna, Sasha, Alyona, Maya, Darya, and, of course, Kamila could not care less if the age limit is raised or not.

 

[moonvine]

I notice this comes up a lot...what does "skating like a junior" mean? Because from what I gather it seems it means that anything fun and not SRS BSNS is discouraged. Like everyone has to skate to classical music or a ballad in a floaty "Oh I'm such an artiste" kind of way. The stereotypical "Ice Princess" thing.

Obviously there's skaters who love that sort of music, but where's the variety if every skater feels like they have to skate in one particular way? I enjoy lots of junior programs, quite a few are better put together than senior ones.

Or is it purely about technique? Although that still can't be judged just on age.

I don’t think it’s to do with music. I mean my favorite short this year is to “Fat Bottomed Girls.”

It’s about skating skills, musical interpretation and such.

Try watching a JGP and watch a Senior GP immediately afterwards.

 

[lariko]

They do not seem to have this problem in Artistic Gymnastics

I don’t watch artistic gymnastics or invested in any athletes there. I am invested in a great many of skaters and I want them to have their star moments and choices. I also don’t want women to be treated remarkably more differently than men in terms of fixation on their puberty and shape.

 

[yume]

Just write a letter to Putin and ask him to give less money to sports ministry. Less money means less sports schools/sports programs, less ice rinks, less affordable ice time, less training, less kids that parents starts to send to coaches at 4yo. Then you will see the technical level decrease, the depth will decrease and then there will be 3 girls that we will see regularly in big comps for more than 5 years because they will have less competition at home.
And we won't have this debate about 15yo girls coming to snatch medals again.

 

[Alegria]

I don’t watch artistic gymnastics or invested in any athletes there. I am invested in a great many of skaters and I want them to have their star moments and choices. I also don’t want women to be treated remarkably more differently than men in terms of fixation on their puberty and shape.

So why not allow 12-years girls in juniors or even younger? Some of them already have quads, but who knows what will happen in a year or two.