Yes, Leonova and Khvalko! Thanks so much!! (and thanks to lyverbird1 as well!)
Random Figure Skating Questions
- Thread starter tulosai
- Start date
Yes, Leonova and Khvalko! Thanks so much!! (and thanks to lyverbird1 as well!)
In the US:
Officially Juvenile has only one program -- the freeskate.
Many juvenile skaters who are serious about training to compete at higher levels in the future like to "skate up" one level at nonqualifying competitions to enter the Intermediate short program to get more competitive experience in general and specifically experience skating a short program. If they're also serious about competing at juvenile level at regionals, they'll enter the juvenile freeskate at the same nonqual competitions where they enter intermediate short program. When they go to regionals as juveniles, though, they would only be able to enter the juvenile event, which is freeskate only -- same if they qualify to move on to sectionals or nationals.
Some nonqualifying competitions have noted the popularity of juveniles skating up to skate intermediate short programs at club competitions and have chosen to offer a separate unofficial short program event type just for juveniles. I can think of a few main reasons why a club might choose to do that:
1) A large competition might want separate the juveniles skating short programs from the true intermediates so that each test level gets a truer sense of where they stand against the skaters they'll be facing at regionals.
2) Especially if there will be events taking place simultaneously on more than one ice surface, it's easier for the referee to schedule the juvenile and intermediate freeskates, and final rounds if applicable, if they don't have to worry about time conflicts for individual skaters who might be entered in SP and FS at different levels.
3) Parents of pretty-good intermediates running the competition might want to help their daughters' chances of qualifying for an intermediate SP final round by not having them up against the best juveniles in addition to the best intermediates.
4) Designating a special juvenile SP event allows prejuvenile skaters, or hopeful juveniles-to-be this season who have not yet passed the juvenile test, to enter a short program event.
There are no standard rules for juvenile short program in the USFS rulebook, because it doesn't exist in USFS qualifying competitions. But clubs are allowed to offer nonstandard events in nonqualifying competitions if they make the rules clear in the competition announcement. If they offer a juvenile short program, the rules would probably be the same as intermediate short program with the exception that triple jumps would not be allowed.
Officially Juvenile has only one program -- the freeskate.
Many juvenile skaters who are serious about training to compete at higher levels in the future like to "skate up" one level at nonqualifying competitions to enter the Intermediate short program to get more competitive experience in general and specifically experience skating a short program. If they're also serious about competing at juvenile level at regionals, they'll enter the juvenile freeskate at the same nonqual competitions where they enter intermediate short program. When they go to regionals as juveniles, though, they would only be able to enter the juvenile event, which is freeskate only -- same if they qualify to move on to sectionals or nationals.
Some nonqualifying competitions have noted the popularity of juveniles skating up to skate intermediate short programs at club competitions and have chosen to offer a separate unofficial short program event type just for juveniles. I can think of a few main reasons why a club might choose to do that:
1) A large competition might want separate the juveniles skating short programs from the true intermediates so that each test level gets a truer sense of where they stand against the skaters they'll be facing at regionals.
2) Especially if there will be events taking place simultaneously on more than one ice surface, it's easier for the referee to schedule the juvenile and intermediate freeskates, and final rounds if applicable, if they don't have to worry about time conflicts for individual skaters who might be entered in SP and FS at different levels.
3) Parents of pretty-good intermediates running the competition might want to help their daughters' chances of qualifying for an intermediate SP final round by not having them up against the best juveniles in addition to the best intermediates.
4) Designating a special juvenile SP event allows prejuvenile skaters, or hopeful juveniles-to-be this season who have not yet passed the juvenile test, to enter a short program event.
There are no standard rules for juvenile short program in the USFS rulebook, because it doesn't exist in USFS qualifying competitions. But clubs are allowed to offer nonstandard events in nonqualifying competitions if they make the rules clear in the competition announcement. If they offer a juvenile short program, the rules would probably be the same as intermediate short program with the exception that triple jumps would not be allowed.
If you can find the competition announcement, it should specify the time and jump requirements. My daughter is one of those juv skaters that also does an intermediate short. To date, I have only seen one competition where there was a juv short. So for us, the added cost associated with putting together a short program just for one competition does not justify it UNLESS we can just reuse this season int short.
What I have noticed around here is most competitions put the int short on one day with that final that night. Then on the next day, they put the juv and int longs with those respective finals that second night.
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- Joined
- Nov 13, 2012
Here is an example: both Juv and Juv Short are in accordance to the same rule. http://www.skatelagrande.org/announcement/
According to the information you posted, the max time is the same for both juv and int short. My guess is you can just use your int short but take out any triple jumps which most juvs do not have. But to be safe, i would contact the referee. Having said that, the one competition where I have seen juv short results posted, the scores looked low for an int short.
I cannot see there would be any price difference between juv vs int short. It should like both use both use the IJS systen.
I cannot see there would be any price difference between juv vs int short. It should like both use both use the IJS systen.
The part that doesn't make sense in the announcement loopy linked is that it says the Juvenile and Open Juvenile short programs are to be skated in accordance with Rule 4240.
Rule 4240 is the official rules for juvenile (and open juvenile) competitions. Those levels of official competitions are free skate only, so there is no mention of short programs in that rule.
My guess of what happened is that whoever put together the announcement was referring to the rules for senior, junior, novice, and intermediate competition by rule number (4200-4230) when writing the short program page and inadvertently included the juvenile rule 4240 for the juvenile short program, forgetting/not checking that there is no official rule for juvenile short programs.
These rules 4200-4240 also apply to freeskates, where it is appropriate to cite for the juvenile and open juvenile freeskates.
Juvenile short program is an unofficial event that clubs are allowed to offer in their nonqualifying competitions, but there is no rule in the rulebook to refer to, so they need to be more explicit in their announcements.
I'm sure they really intend the juvenile short to match the intermediate short without the possibility of triples. I'm sure they do not mean that it's exactly the same as the freeskate with 2:15 +/- 10 sec time limit and 5 jump passes and combo spin allowed to fly.
Of course there's only 15 seconds difference between the times for the juvenile freeskate and the intermediate short. More time in the short to do other stuff besides jumping!
Rule 4240 is the official rules for juvenile (and open juvenile) competitions. Those levels of official competitions are free skate only, so there is no mention of short programs in that rule.
My guess of what happened is that whoever put together the announcement was referring to the rules for senior, junior, novice, and intermediate competition by rule number (4200-4230) when writing the short program page and inadvertently included the juvenile rule 4240 for the juvenile short program, forgetting/not checking that there is no official rule for juvenile short programs.
These rules 4200-4240 also apply to freeskates, where it is appropriate to cite for the juvenile and open juvenile freeskates.
Juvenile short program is an unofficial event that clubs are allowed to offer in their nonqualifying competitions, but there is no rule in the rulebook to refer to, so they need to be more explicit in their announcements.
I'm sure they really intend the juvenile short to match the intermediate short without the possibility of triples. I'm sure they do not mean that it's exactly the same as the freeskate with 2:15 +/- 10 sec time limit and 5 jump passes and combo spin allowed to fly.
Of course there's only 15 seconds difference between the times for the juvenile freeskate and the intermediate short. More time in the short to do other stuff besides jumping!
Don't sign up for the Juv Short just to save money and then skate the whole free skate. Even though the way the announcement was written suggests the rules are the same, that can't possibly be what they really intended.
It's intended to be something in addition to the freeskate. The reason the short program costs less to enter is because the expectation is that it will be the second program that a juvenile skater enters -- they're already paying the $100 for the freeskate so they get a discount on the additional event.
However, skaters who plan to skate juvenile freeskate and also enter short program events at nonquals (whether designated as juvenile or skating up to intermediate) are spending more in general because they have to cut music for and choreograph two completely separate programs, and most also wear different costumes for each.
If you want to try to game the system by signing up for Juvenile short program only, you could enter the Juvenile short and skate to the same music as your freeskate. Just make sure that you do exactly two solo jumps (one of which is an axel or double axel) and the other is a double that is preceded by steps/skating movements) and exactly only one double-double or double-single jump combination (that doesn't repeat either solo jump), and that your combination spin does change feet and does not fly on the entry. Leave out the other two jumps passes from the freeskate entirely. If you do too many elements or elements that don't fit the (intermediate) short program rules, you could end up losing points not only for the wrong elements but also for later elements after the wrong ones already blocked that box.
You'll probably end up with a time deduction, but if your program was on the shorter side for juvenile freeskate rules to begin with and you stand perfectly still for several seconds at the beginning and the end you might get away with it.
If you want to do a short program in addition to your standard juvenile freeskate, put together a real short program according to (intermediate) short program rules.
If you can't get the organizing committee to answer you, try to contact other parents from that club, or from your club who have attended that competition in the past to confirm what they really mean by "juvenile short program." Check with your coach.
Signing up for juvenile SP only, going to the competition and skating your juvenile freeskate in the short program event will likely make you look foolish and place lower than you would have in the freeskate event your program was designed for.
It's intended to be something in addition to the freeskate. The reason the short program costs less to enter is because the expectation is that it will be the second program that a juvenile skater enters -- they're already paying the $100 for the freeskate so they get a discount on the additional event.
However, skaters who plan to skate juvenile freeskate and also enter short program events at nonquals (whether designated as juvenile or skating up to intermediate) are spending more in general because they have to cut music for and choreograph two completely separate programs, and most also wear different costumes for each.
If you want to try to game the system by signing up for Juvenile short program only, you could enter the Juvenile short and skate to the same music as your freeskate. Just make sure that you do exactly two solo jumps (one of which is an axel or double axel) and the other is a double that is preceded by steps/skating movements) and exactly only one double-double or double-single jump combination (that doesn't repeat either solo jump), and that your combination spin does change feet and does not fly on the entry. Leave out the other two jumps passes from the freeskate entirely. If you do too many elements or elements that don't fit the (intermediate) short program rules, you could end up losing points not only for the wrong elements but also for later elements after the wrong ones already blocked that box.
You'll probably end up with a time deduction, but if your program was on the shorter side for juvenile freeskate rules to begin with and you stand perfectly still for several seconds at the beginning and the end you might get away with it.
If you want to do a short program in addition to your standard juvenile freeskate, put together a real short program according to (intermediate) short program rules.
If you can't get the organizing committee to answer you, try to contact other parents from that club, or from your club who have attended that competition in the past to confirm what they really mean by "juvenile short program." Check with your coach.
Signing up for juvenile SP only, going to the competition and skating your juvenile freeskate in the short program event will likely make you look foolish and place lower than you would have in the freeskate event your program was designed for.
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2012
It wasn't my intention, it was just confusion. If they had a reference about what it was I wouldn't have even thought about it. Our coach tells me what to sign her up for and that is what I do. It was the first year I have noticed this and this at all of the local competitions - none have additional information or clarification.
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2013
Is GOE factored in the same way for rotated jumps, underrotated jumps, downgraded jumps, and jumps with edge calls? :scratch:
See the current Scale of Values in ISU Communication 2000 here: http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-skating-and-ice-dance/isu-communications
The bold numbers in the middle are the base values, and the lightface numbers on either side are the GOEs.
For jumps, the base values in the V column are used if there is either an underrotated < call or an e edge call. The V1 values apply if the same jump gets both calls. But the GOE values stay the same, added to or subtracted from the lowered base value.
Downgraded jumps with << call get the base value of the jump with the same takeoff and one fewer rotations. My understanding is that the GOE values are also those of the jump with one fewer rotations.
E.g., 3T<< is worth 1.3 base value, and if the judges all give -3 GOE then the reduction is 0.6 points.
If it's a solo jump. If the downgraded jump is in combination, then the GOE is taken from the row in the table of the jump with the higher base value. So for a 2A+3T<< combination, the base value would be 3.3 (for the axel) plus 1.3 (for the toe loop), and straight -3 GOE would be a reduction of 1.5 points.
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I just looked at the Skate Detroit announcement (the only time I have seen it offered) to try to figure out what is going on with the Juvenile short.
Juvenile (Short Program) - (IJS) - Passed the Juvenile Free Skate Test. (Age 13 or younger by 9/01/16). Required elements same as stated in Intermediate Short Program 4230. Max time 2:00 (which is what we assumed).
Juvenile (Long Program) - IJS - Skaters who have passed Juvenile Free Skate Test. - Required elements as stated in 4240. Max time 2:15
At Skate Detroit, for Int and up, the fee is for the combined short and long. That is $190.
For Juv and down,you pay $125 for the first program and $60 for the second program. So to the do both Juv events, you get a $5 discount. So basically no different in price.
Juvenile (Short Program) - (IJS) - Passed the Juvenile Free Skate Test. (Age 13 or younger by 9/01/16). Required elements same as stated in Intermediate Short Program 4230. Max time 2:00 (which is what we assumed).
Juvenile (Long Program) - IJS - Skaters who have passed Juvenile Free Skate Test. - Required elements as stated in 4240. Max time 2:15
At Skate Detroit, for Int and up, the fee is for the combined short and long. That is $190.
For Juv and down,you pay $125 for the first program and $60 for the second program. So to the do both Juv events, you get a $5 discount. So basically no different in price.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2016
A rather noobish question but I'm desperate for replies...
My coach and I have been trying to get me spinning (for months now).
Two foot spin: I can only do 2-3 rotations also when you are supposed to keep your left leg stable and pull the right one in, I tend to pull the left leg to the right.
One foot spin: Well... I can't. I get on my toepick a lot (bc of small feet idk??) also when you switch from forward outside edge to backward inside, I flop out of the spin :|
P/s: I notice right before pulling into a spin people slow down on the forward outside edge entrance. How do they do that??
_______Please help, thanks!_________
My coach and I have been trying to get me spinning (for months now).
Two foot spin: I can only do 2-3 rotations also when you are supposed to keep your left leg stable and pull the right one in, I tend to pull the left leg to the right.
One foot spin: Well... I can't. I get on my toepick a lot (bc of small feet idk??) also when you switch from forward outside edge to backward inside, I flop out of the spin :|
P/s: I notice right before pulling into a spin people slow down on the forward outside edge entrance. How do they do that??
_______Please help, thanks!_________
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Frostfeather, you will generally get the best response to skating technical questions in the Lutz Corner part of the forum, so I am copying your post there.
I hope someone will help you out!
The new thread is here:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?60204-Help-Doing-Spins-Please
I hope someone will help you out!
The new thread is here:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?60204-Help-Doing-Spins-Please
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- Joined
- Oct 25, 2012
I was looking through old results from the Canadian Championships on Wikipedia, and at the bottom of the 1996 page, I spotted this:
Fours
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH]Rank[/TH]
[TH]Name[/TH]
[TH]FS[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: gold"]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD]Jodeyne Higgins / Sean Rice / Alison Purkiss / Scott MacDonald
[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: silver"]
[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD]Samantha Marchant / Chad Hawse / Cecily Restivo / Scott Cornfoot
[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
What on Earth is a Fours Competition?!
From looking elsewhere on the page, each team is made up of two Pairs partnerships. But, how does it work?
1996 is as far back as Wikipedia goes for the Canadian Championships. And by the looks of things the Fours Championships were not held again after that.
So, was this a one-off experimental format competition that didn't really work? Or was 1996 the final year of a run?
Have Fours competitions been held anywhere else?
This has got me really intrigued!
CaroLiza_fan
Fours
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH]Rank[/TH]
[TH]Name[/TH]
[TH]FS[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: gold"]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD]Jodeyne Higgins / Sean Rice / Alison Purkiss / Scott MacDonald
[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: silver"]
[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD]Samantha Marchant / Chad Hawse / Cecily Restivo / Scott Cornfoot
[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
What on Earth is a Fours Competition?!
From looking elsewhere on the page, each team is made up of two Pairs partnerships. But, how does it work?
1996 is as far back as Wikipedia goes for the Canadian Championships. And by the looks of things the Fours Championships were not held again after that.
So, was this a one-off experimental format competition that didn't really work? Or was 1996 the final year of a run?
Have Fours competitions been held anywhere else?
This has got me really intrigued!
CaroLiza_fan
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