Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

[OS]

Figure skating is not Fine Art but it is one of the Arts. Figure skating involves aspects of dance, music, fashion, makeup, costumes ontop of the required elements, therefore it definitely falls under the arts.

The same reasons why Languages, Music, Cinema, Dance, Photography, Design, Crafts, Culinary etc.. all fall under the discipline of the Arts. The act requiring a multi disciplinary approach involving Descriptive, Prescriptive, Creative, Interpretative, Physical Expression, where the end results are manifestation of these critical processes under 'good' art.

As such, anything existing, routine, tried, tested, repeated can be considered as unoriginal, uncreative similar to manufactured goods, therefore of less artistic value. Although it may improve the craftmanship aspect, therefore, it should be judged as such and not wholesale.

 

[Sorrento]

I think people wanted to be entertain~ you know it's boring hearing the same music. I will be disappointed if he repeat Romeo and Juliet 2.0 because that version is not a good track but he chose to repeat Seimei which is a good track that I don't mind repeat over and over again. Back in Sochi, I don't even noticed Patrick repeat his program for his SP because it felt new and the emotion watching it during the games is different as well.

I get this Entertaining crave, yes. But aren't we become a bit of way too bored and greedy? See- we tend to forget that we are those who sit with their asses on the couch and these guys work their asses off to show the best performance that they can. They don't want to ruin it for us and they don't want to fall to celebrate the new era of a no falls Olympics in all it's glory. Isn't it what we want too? Then could we just get off their shoulders and let them do their job? I want to scream out loud praising the Olympic champions: They did not fall and their content was out of this world- the one you have never seen in this sport! I want it to be risky and clean so that my lazy *** could celebrate this glory too.

 

[andromache]

Really though, let's be honest - no one would be disappointed about a Seimei repeat if it wasn't for the fact that he's repeating Chopin as well (for the the THIRD time).

 

[Sorrento]

As such, anything existing routine, tried, tested, repeated can be considered as unoriginal, uncreative similar to manufactured goods, therefore of less artistic value. Although it may improve the craftmanship aspect, therefore, it should be judged as such and not wholesale.

Mind you, they do not perform those programs so many times for them to become a wholesale product. Most of repeated music programs look better and more mature. Figure skating sequels- unlike the movies- usually tend to perform better with skaters.

 

[Sorrento]

Really though, let's be honest - no one would be disappointed about a Seimei repeat if it wasn't for the fact that he's repeating Chopin as well (for the the THIRD time).

That's the point, yeah. SEIMEI would have been so much more welcomed unless he'd choose to keep his beloved Chopin as an Olympic appetizer. Now instead of jumps of joy we get this crying game. Well...

 

[andromache]

We say that figure skating is not fine art. And then why on earth people get offended by the fact that skaters reuse their music? Why?

Let's talk about Top Men's field- are they all great dancers? No. Don't they all have the same tricks and more or less same jump content and the same jump and elements layout that they use every season, even the step sequences? Do they differ visually in the way they move or present themselves to the audience and the judges every season at the top field? No. Most of us can see their new program and say- yeah, it's the same old Patrick or same old Yuzu that I know and love. So why there's such a noise on not learning the new choreo? What is new choreo exactly? What is new in it except- in oh so many cases- just the music itself?

I actually think many of the top men do differ in their presentation style from program to program and year to year. Look at Boyang's Spiderman, Nathan's new SP this year, Yuzu's Prince SP, the huge difference between Seimei and last year's LP.

I love how the top men have pushed the sport technically, but I also love how they have pushed the sport artistically as well, by challenging themselves with innovative choreography, new characters, trying out new genres and emotions. If Yuzu wants to step away from challenging himself and pushing the sport artistically, fine. That's his prerogative, and he doesn't owe us anything. But we shouldn't pretend that he's not taking the easy way out.

 

[OS]

Mind you, they do not perform those programs so many times for them to become a wholesale product. Most of repeated music programs look better and more mature. Figure skating sequels- unlike the movies- usually tend to perform better with skaters.

Well, the judges judge them like wholesale often, when the scoring are supposed to mark 2 distinctive parts.

Seimei, Chopin should worth more artistically first time round, when it was so different from what he did before, what was expected of him, and what so different from others. However, this artistic value dilutes, the more it is repeated. Otherwise, people might as well all be doing the same program, same music, wear the same outfit every year to make it a true level playing field.

 

[Sorrento]

If Yuzu wants to step away from challenging himself and pushing the sport artistically, fine. That's his prerogative, and he doesn't owe us anything. But we shouldn't pretend that he's not taking the easy way out.

How is it easy when he is packing the program with the level of difficulty very few can achieve? This sport nowadays is not about artistry- it is pure math and presentation. Those who does TES and manage to produce a clear image of the music that is comprehensive to both the audience and judges- succeed. BTW- in all the previous years those who spoke how they just want to show the art into their skating were fading in their TES field therefore their only forte was this- artistry. PCS is no longer- for a long while already- an equal to old-fashioned artistry, it is strongly linked to the technical aspect of skating, not jumps only. It's what the top Men's field is all about and if we can let us forget about it- none of them can. Because of the Olympics. If it was another ordinary season- we'd get all the artistry challenges we could imagine. Honestly I hope he does not retire so that we could get on demand all of our hopes and wishes.

 

[Sorrento]

Well, the judges judge them like wholesale often, when the scoring are supposed to mark 2 distinctive parts.

Seimei, Chopin should worth more artistically first time round, when it was so different from what he did before, what was expected of him, and what so different from others. However, this artistic value dilutes, the more it is repeated. Otherwise, people might as well all be doing the same program, same music, wear the same outfit every year to make it a true level playing field.

Well, to me Chopin music does not sound so boring and over familiar. I do not consider it to be a warhorse and even though I loved his old version and that old layout I am curious how he is going to surpass that image in my perception. What came into my mind was Javier's Malaguena. He had only changed the costume to a black version of it. Did the program change much? Nope. Did it make a better\ stronger impact on judges or the audience- sorry, I don't think so. And it was a great program that fit him like a glove but to me it's charms faded fairly soon, especially with every competition when he could not perform it perfectly. And why not perform it perfectly when the only thing that have changed was the clothes he skated in?
SEIMEI on the other hand is a very rare piece of music to hear. Good he had decided to keep it for Olympic season. Do I expect the same SEIMEI? I love the first one to death, I think it was done to perfection. Can he top that? Well, can't wait to see it.
It is a challenge- top his world breaking records not only in figures but in our perception too. There's no way I could call it easy.

 

[AngelENTL]

Really though, let's be honest - no one would be disappointed about a Seimei repeat if it wasn't for the fact that he's repeating Chopin as well (for the the THIRD time).

I would still be disappointed with it... :-/ Not that the Chopin helps. I just fear he's setting himself up for criticism. I mean - look at this thread already. And that kind of criticism can get in one's head.

 

[OS]

I would still be disappointed with it... :-/ Not that the Chopin helps. I just fear he's setting himself up for criticism. I mean - look at this thread already. And that kind of criticism can get in one's head.

Constructive critism is good for the soul.

He will not wither, but burn an enormous fire furnace of quadrants to obliterate any possible 0.2 PCS disadvantage from repeating programs under the COP.

The advantage of Copy Old Programs far outweigh any measily thing such as unoriginality under COP afterall, why do you think Carmen Owns Pagentary.

 

[andromache]

How is it easy when he is packing the program with the level of difficulty very few can achieve? This sport nowadays is not about artistry- it is pure math and presentation. Those who does TES and manage to produce a clear image of the music that is comprehensive to both the audience and judges- succeed. BTW- in all the previous years those who spoke how they just want to show the art into their skating were fading in their TES field therefore their only forte was this- artistry. PCS is no longer- for a long while already- an equal to old-fashioned artistry, it is strongly linked to the technical aspect of skating, not jumps only. It's what the top Men's field is all about and if we can let us forget about it- none of them can. Because of the Olympics. If it was another ordinary season- we'd get all the artistry challenges we could imagine. Honestly I hope he does not retire so that we could get on demand all of our hopes and wishes.

If PCS is about technical ability, don't be mad when Nathan, Boyang, and other TES wunderkinds get high PCS.

Technical difficulty is one thing, artistic difficulty through challenging yourself and taking risks is another.

Reusing two programs is way easier than getting two new ones, for any skater. Hanyu isn't an exception.

 

[Neenah16]

I would still be disappointed with it... :-/ Not that the Chopin helps. I just fear he's setting himself up for criticism. I mean - look at this thread already. And that kind of criticism can get in one's head.

Hanyu is not new to the game and he has a team of professionals working with him. I am sure they considered the pros and cons and know exactly what to expect, Brian even said it in his interview that they knew there would be criticism. This is not an arbitrary decision neither is it an easy one to make.

 

[Interspectator]

If PCS is about technical ability, don't be mad when Nathan, Boyang, and other TES wunderkinds get high PCS.

Technical difficulty is one thing, artistic difficulty through challenging yourself and taking risks is another.

Reusing two programs is way easier than getting two new ones, for any skater. Hanyu isn't an exception.

Should PCS be awarded for doing something new? What if the program is new, but emptier? Or new but with warhorse music and choreography that is not innovative? -Should that get a PCS boost just because it's new? Conversely, if a program got high evaluations from the judges the first time around, is the program showing less Skating Skills, Transitions, Connection to Audience/music, Interpretation etc. just because it's been done before?
If Nathan and Boyang's new programs show off their PCS-related skills better then they should for sure be awarded higher PCS than before. Nathan's new SP seems like it would do just that! But if, though a new program, it's just about the same in terms of skating skills, transitions, connection to music etc. etc. than last season, there isn't a rule or even a guideline that indicates the judges should give higher PCS for that.

Skaters do pay attention to how judges are scoring and Yuzu really keeps track of each of his score sheets and where his points are coming from. When he debuted two new and innovative programs last season, his PCS went down, and stayed down even after having skated almost clean. (though still pretty high, in comparison to the rest of the field) So, what is a thinking skater to learn from this? When other skaters are quickly getting points through adding quads, and their PCS is arbitrarily rising to keep pace with TES, should he pour lots of time into crafting another complex, new and demanding program, full of different transitions and steps? Or, should he focus on getting a new quad in, and using a previously successful program, that is also complex, audience-pleasing and judges-pleasing as well.

My assessment if I was competitive skater thinking of re-cycling a program like Chopin and Seimei would be:
Pros:
-Judges love it
-It is full of transitions, and high-quality steps, spins and choreography
-The music has a rhythm I know I can perform well
-I know I can skate it clean
-It will give me time to add in another quad

Cons:
-Some fans won't like it

If I were, for instance, a skater like Boyang or Nathan, my assessment would be different.
Pros:
-The music has a rhythm I know I can perform well
-I know I can skate it clean
-It will give me time to add another quad

Cons:
-Some fans won't like it
-The judges won't see my skating in a different way so my PCS may not go up
-Adding more difficult choreography and transitions needed for higher PCS may be missed by judges if the same music is used, so it would be about the same effort to make a new program.

All the same, if Boyang had chosen to repeat Spiderman, I would have been pretty pleased.

 

[andromache]

Should PCS be awarded for doing something new? (cut for space)

My assessment if I was competitive skater thinking of re-cycling a program like Chopin and Seimei would be:
Pros:
-Judges love it
-It is full of transitions, and high-quality steps, spins and choreography
-The music has a rhythm I know I can perform well
-I know I can skate it clean
-It will give me time to add in another quad

Cons:
-Some fans won't like it

I didn't even want to discuss PCS. How judges award PCS and how fans think judges should award PCS are two entirely different issues - on top of how judges reward PCS being ridiculously arbitrary at times. I wasn't even interested in discussing PCS - Sorrento brought that up. I assume Hanyu will score as high as ever with his recycled programs, and maybe he will deserve to, considering his content, and the high level of his skating, transitions, choreo, etc.

I am trying to make the point that the decision to re-use two successful programs is easy and safe. It is far easier and less risky than having two brand new programs. The guys who are learning new LPs and working on how to best present and skate to new music are challenging themselves and taking risks. Sure, Hanyu is taking risks in other ways, in regards to his technical content, but not his artistic content.

Maybe skaters should find what works for them and never skate to anything else, as long as they know it will help them win. When you look at it that way, it's shocking skaters get new programs as often as they do.

 

[NoNameFace]

Really though, let's be honest - no one would be disappointed about a Seimei repeat if it wasn't for the fact that he's repeating Chopin as well (for the the THIRD time).

I think that there's something to be said about this one...A repetition multiplied goes harder on imagination and perception than just one and it affects not only the reception of the sole fact/decision that there will be 2 repeated programs, but moreover and more important - in a lot of cases it also affects already a reception of the skater and those programs inwards...

But personally, what kind of baffles me about this whole situation the most is how it gets blown up totally out of proportion solely by people's opinions, which then are based on being Yuzuru fan/uber or not. And to add on this, this whole bashing/hatred expressed/mockery of other skaters using that particular topic...just low. I do not really think - especially based on how Yuzuru talks about his programs, approach on upcoming season - that this is needed in sport at all, but unfortunately it seems that some people desperately need it to prove that their say is the only right say. I understand that Yuzuru repeating program triggers comparisons to other skaters doing it/who done it already - this is inevitable and natural to expect, but crypto-shading other skater by saying e.g. that someone actually likes the idea of Yuzuru repeating programs, but cannot stand warhorses repeated, "Turandot" especially (this particular piece is not from here) is just too much sometimes.

But of course - freedom of opinions, agree to disagree et all, shame that it is not always done in tasteful, respectful way towards people who do not share particular view/opinion...

 

[gkelly]

If I am the judge, as a general rule of thumb I would mark PCS -5, -8 just based on repeated programs. Otherwise, skaters gain unfair advantages in TES: GOEs, and favourable established benchmarking already, only fair.

OK, suppose you're a judge, not an especially busy one (maybe you have a family and you do work for a living). And you want to apply your judging standards fairly.

Let's say this season you're assigned to judge one discipline Olympics and also one Grand Prix or senior B event and one JGP (pairs and men at one of the latter, ladies only at the other), as well as your country's Nationals and several lower level events close to home.

Over the course of the season you end up judging a hundred or so different skaters, more than two hundred different programs between short and long, with similar numbers over the last few years.

You might also be asked to monitor top skaters from your country at the beginning of the season so you might have seen their programs before they competed internationally.

You love following the top elite skaters so you watch other disciplines in person when you're at competition venues, you watch TV broadcasts when you're at home, and you seek out online videos of the top skaters at season debut or important events or any time a skating friend says "Hey, did you see _______? That performance was amazing, you've got to check it out!"

So that might make 300+ programs you see each year. A more active judge, or one makes a point of watching every skater at all the JGPs, GPs, Europeans and Four Continents available online whenever possible, might see a few thousand different programs each year.

But you rarely watch the same performance more than once on video, so by the time the Olympics rolls around you've seen the top contenders' programs maybe five times previously, more if they had already used that performance for a full season (or two) previously.

When it comes to warhorse music, you've heard the same pieces many many times over the years, many times over the same season, and probably a couple of times in different disciplines including short vs. long programs over the course of this particular competition.

If the reigning world/Olympic champion comes out and skates to music s/he has used in a previous season, you'll probably remember that you've seen it often before and maybe remember particular highlight performances from last year or earlier this year, especially if you judged/witnessed them in person. You might remember specific highlights of previous performances and notice if they're performed better or worse than before, or notice if the choreography has changed so that memorable moves from past performances are gone or new ones catch your attention.

How do you penalize the skater in PCS based on what they do today vs. how today's performance compares with your memory of past performances (several of which might run together in your mind) vs. the general sense that you've seen this skater use this music before?

What about a non-medal contender? Maybe skater X from a small country competed unmemorably at the JGP you judged last year, kept his/her music, and used it again at the senior B you judged this year and again at the big event you're judging now. So this is the third time you're seeing this program from this skater over 2 seasons, but you honestly can't remember anything about this skater other than that the name is memorable and maybe an unusual axel technique or spin position or whatever. Do mark this skater -5, -8, based on repeated programs even though you really can't remember whether this is a repeat or not?

What about a breakthrough skater from another country you've never seen before? Skater Y has mostly been competing at domestic events in his/her home country. Maybe they have sometimes done well enough at their nationals to get sent to international events, but never one you judged at and sometimes they ended up withdrawing due to injury anyway. But this year they're finally healthy and on top of their game, winning their own nationals with a program they'd been skating for two years already. And now they're at the Olympics, maybe in medal contention, skating a program you have never ever seen before.

Do you mark PCS -5, -8 based on repeated programs?

 

[Interspectator]

I didn't even want to discuss PCS. How judges award PCS and how fans think judges should award PCS are two entirely different issues - on top of how judges reward PCS being ridiculously arbitrary at times. I wasn't even interested in discussing PCS - Sorrento brought that up. I assume Hanyu will score as high as ever with his recycled programs, and maybe he will deserve to, considering his content, and the high level of his skating, transitions, choreo, etc.

I am trying to make the point that the decision to re-use two successful programs is easy and safe. It is far easier and less risky than having two brand new programs. The guys who are learning new LPs and working on how to best present and skate to new music are challenging themselves and taking risks. Sure, Hanyu is taking risks in other ways, in regards to his technical content, but not his artistic content.

Maybe skaters should find what works for them and never skate to anything else, as long as they know it will help them win. When you look at it that way, it's shocking skaters get new programs as often as they do.

I would partially agree with you about this. But for a young, up and coming skater, or a skater wanting to get back in the game after poor showings, they have much more incentive to change their programs. They have a need to improve their PCS and to do that, they need new programs. Boyang and Nathan might get a 9-11 PCS point boost from new programs that the judges like, Patrick might find that a different program has a rhythm that he can add quads to more easily, and also have his PCS recover from their recent slump.
Yuzu's boost might be 2-3 points extra in PCS max, and that's only if the judges like it. If they don't his PCS would stay the same, or even drop again. --There is much less incentive and much more danger for him trying a new program at this point. However, this is not to denigrate those who choose a to skate new programs. I'm delighted and looking forward to Boyang, Nathan, Patrick and Javi's new programs. I also really like what I've seen of Jason's programs so far. But as a logical decision, Yuzu's plan seems solid.
This DOESN'T mean I think his gold is assured or anything. Yuzu can melt down with SEIMEI and Chopin if he gives into pressure. But his odds are better with these programs, that he'll be able to skate the well at the Olympics.

On a different note, I remember at the Sochi Men's event, many spectators were dissatisfied that the Long Program was such a splatfest. There were almost no clean performances.
What if, all this recycling caused a cleaner Olympic competition? Would that be better than all-new programs and a splatfest? Or a clean competition with fewer quads? What do we prefer? -just a thought experiment we could try.
Personally, for an Olympic event, recycling your best program, and having a clean-ish event would be fine with me.

 

[gkelly]

Figure skating is not Fine Art but it is one of the Arts. Figure skating involves aspects of dance, music, fashion, makeup, costumes ontop of the required elements, therefore it definitely falls under the arts.

The same reasons why Languages, Music, Cinema, Dance, Photography, Design, Crafts, Culinary etc.. all fall under the discipline of the Arts. The act requiring a multi disciplinary approach involving Descriptive, Prescriptive, Creative, Interpretative, Physical Expression, where the end results are manifestation of these critical processes under 'good' art.

The big difference between competitive figure skating and fine arts is that the primary purpose of a work of art is to entertain, create an emotional or aesthetic experience, and/or communicate something meaningful about the human condition.

Figure skating shows may have the same purposes.

The primary purpose of a competitive skating program is to showcase the skater's technical and presentation skills to convince judges they are better than their competitors/to earn more points.

Some skaters may also want to entertain or communicate artistically with audiences. And if they're successful, they'll also connect with judges in the same ways and earn a few more PCS points than they would otherwise.

Other skaters are just jocks in it to win and will do what they need to earn the points but don't really care about art for art's sake.

The former will tend to be more popular with audiences and get more invitations to appear in shows. But that's not the main point of competition.

 

[FCSSp4]

Since my post has mysteriously disappeared, I thought it was worth mentioning that trying to surpass programs like Chopin and Seimei requires a different kind of courage and is worth applauding because it forces Hanyu to face all the pressure brought on from two years ago at such a crucial season.

He won't be free from criticism and his mistakes will be magnified even more so than his competitors simply because he is seen as the man at the forefront. However his ability to look past those drawbacks and focus on the advantages is what allows him to stay competitive. Repeating these programs are a challenge itself but this is still a sport and giving yourself as much leverage as possible while pushing your personal limits.

Everyone has their own challenge to face and Yuzuru chose this one. It's okay to feel disappointed you won't see something new from him this season but to judge his strategy as easier much less so. He's still adding another quad, with 3 in the second half. His Chopin will have two jumps backloaded as well. Technically, he's not making it easy for himself. Had he said he'd go back to his 2015 layout then I'd understand the controversy but right now, I think the risks he's taking make the pros outweigh the cons.