Repeating Programs - Pros and Cons

[Ender]

When someone else makes a controversial choice, especially when that person is Hanyu, it becomes a heck of a lot easier for someone else to see that, hey, I can make that controversial choice too (because the more people who do something the less controversial that something becomes).

Why is someone choosing their own programs for themselves is controversial? Why something that doesn't involve public is controversial? Since when the public has any rights in the personal decision of individuals? Do the public pay taxes or vote for their personal decisions?

 

[andromache]

Why is someone choosing their own programs for themselves is controversial? Why something that doesn't involve public is controversial? Since when the public has any rights in the personal decision of individuals? Do the public pay taxes or vote for their personal decisions?

Ummm....maybe you don't know what controversial means?

What you've said is, essentially, that no one should have negative opinions about any choice any skater makes. Which is just silly. Have you ever watched sports? Athletes, coaches, referees - everyone makes decisions, and there are plenty of decisions that fans argue about.

 

[Ender]

"Controversy" is context-dependent. What is controversial in politics is different than what is controversial in figure skating is different than what is controversial in another area of life.

I would say you're abusing the word "controversial". It's not some several people's annoyance to decide a personal decision as some public issue.

Or how should I say it more coherently, it seems like putting a big label on something small. It doesn't suit.

 

[andromache]

I would say you're abusing the word "controversial". It's not some several people's annoyance to decide a personal decision as public issue.

I actually have a Master's degree in English and work as a professional editor (though sometimes my posts might not seem like it ), so I know how words work. Figure skating is a sport presented to the public - the public is going to have opinions about the decisions of athletes. If a skater decided to skate to music filled with swear words, it would be similarly controversial - unprecedented and something which sparks intense debate.

 

[Ender]

I actually have a Master's degree in English and work as a professional editor (though sometimes my posts might not seem like it ), so I know how words work. Figure skating is a sport presented to the public - the public is going to have opinions about the decisions of athletes. If a skater decided to skate to music filled with swear words, it would be similarly controversial - unprecedented and something which sparks intense debate.

I don't mind if you have master degree in English or not. I don't have any master degree in English. But I do have enough logic and common sense to not abuse some big labels and force them onto something small.

And since when personal choice of using the same music after years is considered the same as using swear words that might offend people? I genuinely find it weird that someone has to go this far to defend their poor choice of word in disguise for their biased annoyance.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Your memory is selective. When Ashley repeated her LP before, it was the first repeat of Moulin Rouge, and it was paired with a brand new SP. Now, much like Hanyu, she is doing an SP for the second time, and her LP for the third time. Two recycled programs, both of which were used together in a previous season in that same Olympic quad, is HIGHLY unusual. Pretending it's the same as every time a skater reuses one program for another season is silly. And, yes, there's always the risk that judges might not like it. For whatever reason, this much repetition hasn't been done by top skaters since, like, Victor Petrenko. SOMETHING stopped skaters from doing it, and maybe that thing was potential blowback from judges. I personally don't know why no top skaters in recent memory haven't had this much repetition until Hanyu has decided to do it, but there it is.

My memory isn't selective, I know all that. I just doubt that the majority of fans, those who only watch during the Olympic season anyway, or the judges will do that much hairsplitting and bother to care.
And to that bolded part - man, then you'd think other skater would actually wait to see judges reaction to Yuzus recycling. Because unless I missed it, he hasn't actually competed yet this season.

Again, if I was Ashley and I wanted to repeat Moulin Rouge, I would be afraid to. I'd worry about getting negative responses from judges and fans - and yes, fan opinions matter. If something is stale, it's boring, and audiences might not respond as well to it as they did in the past, and judges won't score as high (because the audience response DOES impact how judges score). I'd worry about being a punchline - like Petrenko and Sam Cesario (she did Carmen twice as an SP and twice as an LP, and yes, was kind of a punchline). I'd think that I should have a new program because no one repeats programs to THAT extent, and I'm going to have a new program because it's what I'm "supposed" to do.

When someone else makes a controversial choice, especially when that person is Hanyu, it becomes a heck of a lot easier for someone else to see that, hey, I can make that controversial choice too (because the more people who do something the less controversial that something becomes).

You're just jumping to weird conclusions there. Even if audience response influences the judges, it hardly has to follow the comments found on the internet. Especially those that are made before the "new version" of the repeated programs are seen, while the audience reacts to a lot of factors happening on the ice right in front of them.
Also, like I said above, if it's worrying about judges and audience reaction - how would Yuzu doing this assure Ashley of anything, when he hasn't competed with his repeated programs yet? We don't know what the reaction from judges & audience to his recycling is. We don't know judges won't maybe hold him down for it - why are you just assuming they won't? And even if they'll be fine with Yuzu three-peating his way across the ice, why does that mean they'd have to be with Ashley?
The only reaction you can have meant there at all when you said "Ashley would get way more criticism had Hanyu not made this controversial choice before" was criticism from online fans. And as I said before, that's the kind of comments that mean nothing. Otherwise, Evgenias LP would have never gotten the PCS it did.

 

[FCSSp4]

Yuzuru decided on his programs waayy before announcing them and in SEIMEI's case, even 2 years prior. Ashley already announced LLL before suddenly going back to Moulin Rouge despite the heavy PR.

I don't think Yuzuru had anything to do with her changing her mind after all the trouble she went through with Shae-Lynn working on the choreography. Even if Yuzuru is probably one of the biggest names in figure skating at the moment I don't think he has that kind of influence over other skaters, especially not when they already revealed so much about their program prior.

I'm a little sad I won't be able to see LLL by Ashley (I was sooo looking forward to it) but wow it's so funny how a few weeks ago that Moulin Rouge coming back was discussed as a possibility. If Yuzuru is really that influential maybe I should start expecting that Satoko brings back The Planets

 

[andromache]

I don't mind if you have master degree in English or not. I don't have any master degree in English. But I do have enough logic and common sense to not abuse some big labels and force them onto something small.

And since when personal choice of using the same music after years is considered the same as using swear words that might offend people? I genuinely find it weird that someone has to go this far to defend their poor choice of word in disguise for their biased annoyance.

What do you mean by my "biased annoyance"?

Re-using programs to the extent that Ashley and Hanyu are is unprecedented among top skaters in the IJS era. Having not one, but two skaters do something so unprecedented is even more of a surprise. Posters like Lil Kitsu think it's just a coincidence, and I don't. I don't see the problem. It's not "offensive" the way that foul language is, but it's obviously surprising and disappointing to many, many fans. You're happy about it - that's fine. I'm disappointed. That's also fine. Your insistence upon criticizing my word choice and making accusations about my "biased annoyance" is starting to seem downright bizarre, and I would prefer to have a productive discussion with other fans. Thanks.

 

[Shandy]

What's amusing to me, having just done a rewatch of Yuri On Ice (yes, I'm one of "those" fans), is the absolute bewilderment of people commenting on the episodes wondering why the characters are skating the same programs over and over during the course of a single season.

Honestly, it bothers me when programs are repeated with the same choreographer, because even if it's completely redone, it retains a similar "flavor." It's how like artists who try to create art in a different style from what they're used to have to spend ages refining and redefining the new style, at the risk of becoming stale. Also, because I just get tired of certain pieces of music. (If I never had to hear Carmen again...)

 

[gkelly]

And my point is that piano and FS are different kind of competitions. At your examples, judges are scoring the execution of pieces of music or composers. In FS they creat the programs. If it was similar, in 2002 ISU would banned New programs, to create competitions to evaluate execution of Yagudin programs, Midori programs, or any established programs. What is the point to creat programs if they are only interested in the execution?

Well, the point is certainly not to show artistic growth or challenge from year to year. Such considerations have never ever been part of the skating scoring.

Earlier in skating history, it was pretty common for skaters to use the same music for many years and to go back to their favorite music in Olympic years.

Reasons for skaters to choose new music:

*They're tired of listening to same music every day in practice for multiple years or have negative associations with a programs they were unsuccessful with
*They need to change the program length anyway as they move up to new levels of competition (before they reach senior level) or when rules about program length change
*They need significantly different choreography as short program requirements (or well-balanced program requirements, or IJS levels) change
*They have mastered new technical skills and need new choreography designed to showcase the harder jumps or more complex transitions, etc.
*They have mastered new presentation skills and want to show judges that they are now more mature or more artistic than their last program was designed to show
*Their coach thinks that a new style of program will stretch them to master new presentation skills, which they don't have yet when the new music is chosen
*They like to entertain audiences and think that new programs will increase the entertainment value for repeat viewers
*They have aspirations of creating art and like to stretch themselves artistically

Of course we could also make a similar list of reasons to keep last year's programs or resurrect an old one.

Different skaters may have different reasons for their decisions -- and the same skater may have different reasons for keeping or reusing different programs in the same year or for year to year.

There isn't one right answer.

If they were competing in a multi-year versatility competition, then showing new work each year would be important. But that's not what the sport is about.

I think choreographing at least one new program each year started to become more common in the 1990s for several reasons:

*More time to focus on freestyle once school figures were gone (for singles skaters)
*The rise of "skating choreographer" as a profession
*Skaters finally allowed to earn money through skating-related endeavors
*More opportunities to compete each year
*More occasions for those competitions to be seen by more viewers on television and online

 

[Violet Bliss]

I'm sure skaters weigh the pros and cons in their decision to re-use older programs. The pros can be summed up as a greater chance of scoring higher, even winning, at the Olympics, with all the glories that go along with an Olympic medal, especially the gold one. The cons are mainly a lower level of respect from some skating fans and, just maybe, a little bit from themselves. There are no official sanctions or penalty for skating a repeat program or two.

It's not so hard a choice for some skaters. After all, the Olympic glory is the ultimate goal and achievement of athletes.

 

[penguin]

I'm bummed if Ashley really does use Moulin Rouge for a third time. (I loved her first two times, but when she repeated it the first time, I really did believe there was more to mine artistically out of the program. I don't feel that way now.)

The difference to me between her and Yuzuru is that Yuzu is repeating programs in order to increase technical difficulty and add quad jumps. I think Ashley's choice would be met with a lot less skepticism/criticism if, for instance, she were introducing a new jump or combo or skill. For her, it feels like a safe and potentially lazy choice (I don't think she's lazy at all, but three times with the same program feels like you're out of ideas), because she'll just be repeating content. I'm hoping at least that she adds a lot of complicated new transitions or interesting spins, because that's where she's always felt rather empty.

 

[SkaterX]

I have a theory about why Ashley is reusing both programs again. She's been very open about her concussions and how they affect her memory. Do you think she was having trouble learning a ton of new choreography on top of training? This way she can use programs she already has memorized and maximize her training time.

 

[Barb]

Well, the point is certainly not to show artistic growth or challenge from year to year. Such considerations have never ever been part of the skating scoring.

Exactly, that is my problem with the scoring. IMO, they should encourage artistic growth and/or challenge.

 

[mrrice]

Since Gracie seems to be so far behind this year. I think it might be wise for her to go back to firebird or Life Is Beautiful. She needs to focus on getting her jumps and that will take a ton of time. If she and Marina were to re-work Firebird, I think she could very well with it.

 

[largeman]

I have a theory about why Ashley is reusing both programs again. She's been very open about her concussions and how they affect her memory. Do you think she was having trouble learning a ton of new choreography on top of training? This way she can use programs she already has memorized and maximize her training time.

This hypothesis was brought up a few pages back:

Given how concussions have been a problem in the past for Ashley, I'd completely understand. Everyone has their reasons why they choose the programs they do.

I think if people were a lot more understanding for these hardworking people, we'd learn to be more appreciative of their contribution to the sport.

Here's a quote from Ashley's interview in July.

The concussions definitely rewired my brain in the way that I process information. My short-term memory is not that incredible; talking to me is a little bit like talking to Dory from "Finding Nemo" [laughing]. It's really affected me in the way that I learn programs because you have to memorize this choreography and the choreography is very intricate. So for me, retraining my brain to be able to learn choreography and be able to remember it, that's probably my biggest challenge.​

http://www.espn.com/olympics/story/...lks-concussions-costumes-collisions-body-2017

 

[chillgil]

Exactly, that is my problem with the scoring. IMO, they should encourage artistic growth and/or challenge.

the problem with this is that this is almost impossible to judge objectively, as gkelly and OS have discussed in length a few pages back in this thread

 

[chillgil]

Again, if I was Ashley and I wanted to repeat Moulin Rouge, I would be afraid to. I'd worry about getting negative responses from judges and fans - and yes, fan opinions matter.

lol i forgot about the secret power of veto the fans have during the medal ceremony where they can all collectively vote for who they think should have gotten the gold and then award it to them instead of the one who scored highest according to the judges . . . silly me

 

[NaVi]

I think skaters should bring their best programs for the Olympics. Though I think at least in Ashley's case since she's already used it for 2 seasons that it would be best to have another program and then switch to Moulin Rouge.

I have no idea why the text is wrapping like that.

 

[Barb]

the problem with this is that this is almost impossible to judge objectively, as gkelly and OS have discussed in length a few pages back in this thread

this is figure skating, do you really think that everything is judged objectively?
Currently, they evaluate things that in my opinion are more subjective than to notice if someone varies their programs and / or their style.
They could start by applying this judgment only to seniors, of whom it is evident that we expect more, since they are the best in the world, who are not doing this like a hobby, but as a career.